Targaryen Morality

[Hodor the Articulate]

17 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

<snip>

Yeah, but that's not what TDC was arguing.

[Rob Storm]

We definitely see individual Targs the most of any house in history. Dunk and Egg, Princess and the Queen, Fire and Blood, the World Book.  In the Hedge Knight we see Breakspear and Brightflame.  A perfect contradiction of how good or bad a Targaryen can be.  I think that is the point.  When there was competent ruler or ruling couple, Westeros ran very well.  When they didn't or had a generation of poor rulers before somebody with ability it was difficult for them.  They are one of the most Grey(or whatever red/black makes) families but because of the power they possessed both their best and their worst are remembered and judged.     

[Orphalesion]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Yeah, but that's not what TDC was arguing.

That's true, she was arguing they can't "truly" believe in the Seven because they practice incest, didn't she?

Which is of course rubbish. People can and do believe in a particular religion and still break or ignore some of the the religion's commandments.

Just one example: while the New Testament is fairly vocal about marriage being between two people and permanent, it took a long, long, looooong while for that to become the norm among the common people in Europe, looooong after christianization.

And an example that's perhaps closer to the Targs: The vast majority of medieval Kings believed in a very strict, very unforgiving hellfire and brimstone type of Christianity and still mad their mistresses, often parading them around right in front of the public eye and paid the court bishops to testify that their type of infidelity was alright because it was a "King's privilege".   

Really, nothing different than the Targs with their sister-wives.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd toss Ned and Sansa in too, though it might be fair to question how sincere Sansa is holding both the old and the new gods. I think you could make an argument for Theon too. Sam prays to the old god a few times out of desperation, but that's not really "genuine belief."

It seems to me that the belief in the old gods as practiced by the Starks is more a sort of personal piety than an organized religion. Ned goes to the godswood to cleanse himself, and the family goes there to thank the gods for certain developments in their lives (for instance, Bran surviving his fall and awakening later), but it is not that they have to go through a lot of rituals or ceremonies if they don't want to. There is no priesthood nor any other representatives of the old gods forcing a certain behavior on the followers of the old gods, so a Northern lord could easily enough get away with never praying in a godswood at all (and I'm inclined to believe that men like Roose and Ramsay don't give a shit about the gods). The only situation when it is obligatory to go to the godswood for a Northman would be a wedding (and perhaps a funeral, too, we don't know how they go in the North). This could also explain why a lot of rituals honoring the old gods (like blood sacrifices) fell out of practice. People just stopped doing those because they considered them barbaric, and nobody reminded them that they should do those or that they were important for some reason.

If you are following the Faith on paper you have to show up in the (castle) sept once in a while or people begin to talk about you, questioning your piety. Not to mention the fact that septons and septas being in service at the various castles, especially in connection of the upbringing of children, is going to ensure that a lot of them end up being genuine believers of various degrees of piety.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems to me that the belief in the old gods as practiced by the Starks is more a sort of personal piety than an organized religion. Ned goes to the godswood to cleanse himself, and the family goes there to thank the gods for certain developments in their lives (for instance, Bran surviving his fall and awakening later), but it is not that they have to go through a lot of rituals or ceremonies if they don't want to. There is no priesthood nor any other representatives of the old gods forcing a certain behavior on the followers of the old gods, so a Northern lord could easily enough get away with never praying in a godswood at all (and I'm inclined to believe that men like Roose and Ramsay don't give a shit about the gods). The only situation when it is obligatory to go to the godswood for a Northman would be a wedding (and perhaps a funeral, too, we don't know how they go in the North). This could also explain why a lot of rituals honoring the old gods (like blood sacrifices) fell out of practice. People just stopped doing those because they considered them barbaric, and nobody reminded them that they should do those or that they were important for some reason.

If you are following the Faith on paper you have to show up in the (castle) sept once in a while or people begin to talk about you, questioning your piety. Not to mention the fact that septons and septas being in service at the various castles, especially in connection of the upbringing of children, is going to ensure that a lot of them end up being genuine believers of various degrees of piety.

And none of that is really relevant to my point I think Ned and Sansa are genuine believers. There's a reason why I specifically called out people who we see display genuine pious behavior instead of people like Roose or Ramsay, who are not POV characters anyway. Sincere belief in Christianity doesn't require mandatory tithing, confession, and church attendance.

[Yucef Menaerys]

On 4/30/2017 at 1:35 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is actually very unlikely. Lys was founded as a pleasure retreat for the dragonlords. They flew there on dragon back to enjoy themselves, and most, if not all, of the sex slave bloodlines from which the later independent rulers of Lys bred the present Lysene sex slaves would have began as bastards of dragonlords fathered on other dragonlord bastards. Lys was the place where the dragonlords fucked themselves, basically.

And there is actually no sign that Valyrian looks are not qualities that actually visibly mark the presence of the blood of the dragon. The dragonlords founded the Freehold of Valyria and we know that cadet branches of various dragonlord families - the cousins and kin of the dragonlords - still rule Volantis to this day as the Old Blood.

The idea that the average Valyrian citizen who is not related to any dragonlord has the looks (silver-gold hair, purple eyes, etc.) that are characteristic traits of dragonlord ancestry is actually very unlikely.

Incest was the predominant marriage custom amongst the dragonlords and later among the entire Valyrian elite and population, but it seems the dragonlords were pretty fertile and not all of their children would have had close kin to marry, nor would the dragonlords have had dragons for all of their relations. This is why cadet branches of them eventually moved west and founded Volantis and other places. Others may have settled in Valyria itself or the Lands of the Long Summer and becoming some sort of middle class or making up the elite of the Freehold immediately beneath the dragonlords.

We do not know that the current rulers of volantis were from cadet branches of dragonlord families, nothing in the text indicates that, the rulers of volantis may just be non-dragon riding nobles from valyria like the velaryons, why are you even stating this as fact?

What do you mean that typical valyrians do not have silver gold hair and purple eyes? of course they do, they are valyrians are they not? its an ethnicity. Are you suggesting that only dragon riding people can have silver-gold hair and purple eyes? i'm sorry but that is ridiculous, we have seen many average valyrians that have valyrian features and who are not dragonlords, like Lysono Maar. Even the dragonlords themselves initially didn't have any dragons (back when they were shepherds) and they still had silver-gold hair and purple eyes as stated in the world of ice and fire book.

Again i have no idea where you are getting these things from, where did you read that the entire valyrian elite and the general population practiced incest? it is clearly stated in the books that only dragonlords practiced incest, and they did it not because they liked it but because it was vital for their ability to control dragons, if they start marrying outside of the dragonlord blood gene pool their descendants might lose the ability to ride dragons. Your claim about the entire valyrian population practicing incest is unsubstantiated and unsupported by the text, i have not seen a single example of its like during my entire read of all ASOIAF novels and AWOIAF. And we also don't have a single example of the non-dragonlord valyrian elites like the vealryons, celtigars, qoherys practicing incest.

[Yucef Menaerys]

10 hours ago, snow is the man said:

rob and jon are not horrible though despite what alot of people think. arya I think has seen alot and was always the outcast of the family and after she had to fight so hard I think it left her broken. Though she was never a shining beacon of good. Sansa is a character I rarely pay much attention to so I forgot about that. And bran I forgot he did that.

Robb was an oathbreaker and a hypocrite, he broke his oath which he swore to the freys that he would marry one of them. He defended catelyn and refused to execute her when she unlawfully freed the most valuable prisoner to the starks, any other person would have lost their head for that.

[Moiraine Sedai]

34 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Robb was an oathbreaker and a hypocrite, he broke his oath which he swore to the freys that he would marry one of them. He defended catelyn and refused to execute her when she unlawfully freed the most valuable prisoner to the starks, any other person would have lost their head for that.

Robb was untrustworthy at that stage.  He failed to carry out justice.  He let family off the hook and killed Karstark. 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

7 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Robb was an oathbreaker and a hypocrite, he broke his oath which he swore to the freys that he would marry one of them. He defended catelyn and refused to execute her when she unlawfully freed the most valuable prisoner to the starks, any other person would have lost their head for that.

I get that that would be the normal procedure for such an action, but if he had executed her, wouldn't he have been a kinslayer? The Notherners believe that "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword", which would make him a direct kinslayer, but if he had ordered someone else to execute her, would he have been an indirect kinslayer?

The circumstances of Jaime's release were not really normal; Catelyn, the king's mother and a woman besides, released him, which I don't think anyone expected she would do.

Robb would be screwed if he had executed her.

What I think he should have done was remove a lot of her privileges and she should've been escorted back to the North, regardless of her wishes. That way Robb would've gotten rid of her and her rather bad council, and she would've been aptly punished and she would be back at Winterfell with Bran and Rickon, who need her.

[Orphalesion]

31 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I get that that would be the normal procedure for such an action, but if he had executed her, wouldn't he have been a kinslayer? The Notherners believe that "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword", which would make him a direct kinslayer, but if he had ordered someone else to execute her, would he have been an indirect kinslayer?

Yep, there was no way for Robb to win that one; spare Catelyn and his prima donna bannermen throw a hissy fit about him being biased, execute her and his prima donna bannermen throw a hissy fit about being a kinslayer and about executing 1) Ned's widow 2) The dowager lady of Winterfell 3) a highborn woman period.

The Westerosi interpretation of honour and justice doesn't exactly make sense, as Jaime's title of "Kingslayer" shows.

Besides, can you imagine what executing his mother would have done to his reputation outside the North? There were already stories about him being a Werewolf who ate his prisoners, what were they going to say about him if he had sentenced his own mother to death?

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

8 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Robb was an oathbreaker and a hypocrite, he broke his oath which he swore to the freys that he would marry one of them. He defended catelyn and refused to execute her when she unlawfully freed the most valuable prisoner to the starks, any other person would have lost their head for that.

If Robb can't give Catelyn severe punishment he should not have executed Rickard Karstark.  I see this same failure with Jon at the wall.  If he executed Janos Slynt for insubordination he should have executed Mance Rayder who is the personification of insubordination and poster boy for vow breaking. 

[Lord Varys]

Women usually are considered to be non-combatants as well as political non-entities. They are used as pawns and treated as chattel after a war, but since they are not men's equals they are also not executed. They might be mutilated, gang-raped, or imprisoned, but they are usually not killed. Especially not royal women. Alyssa Velaryon, Alicent Hightower, Helaena Targaryen are all spared despite the fact that their enemies must have hated them pretty much.

But Catelyn never did anything that would demand Robb to actually kill her. She tried to get her daughter(s) back, something Robb wanted, too.

10 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

We do not know that the current rulers of volantis were from cadet branches of dragonlord families, nothing in the text indicates that, the rulers of volantis may just be non-dragon riding nobles from valyria like the velaryons, why are you even stating this as fact?

Well, we know that the rulers of Volantis were the cousins and kin of the dragonlords back during the war against the Rhoynar. Nothing indicates that this ever changed.

10 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

What do you mean that typical valyrians do not have silver gold hair and purple eyes? of course they do, they are valyrians are they not? its an ethnicity. Are you suggesting that only dragon riding people can have silver-gold hair and purple eyes? i'm sorry but that is ridiculous, we have seen many average valyrians that have valyrian features and who are not dragonlords, like Lysono Maar. Even the dragonlords themselves initially didn't have any dragons (back when they were shepherds) and they still had silver-gold hair and purple eyes as stated in the world of ice and fire book.

We don't know whether silver-gold hair and purple eyes are an ethnic trait or rather just an extended family trait. Incest began with the dragonlords but it did not stop there. Gyldayn tells us that incest was most common with the families who bred and rode dragons but not restricted to those. Now, if this spread from the dragonlords first to their dragonless cousins it is easily imaginable that they and their descendants ended up looking 'Valyrian' because the incest they practiced throughout the centuries actually ensured that those looks would be both spread and preserved.

We don't know whether this is a completely normal genetic trait that just ended up being preserved by the incest or whether those looks are a consequence of having 'the blood of the dragon'.

10 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Again i have no idea where you are getting these things from, where did you read that the entire valyrian elite and the general population practiced incest?

It is stated by Gyldayn. And we also know that the Old Blood of Volantis marry amongst themselves. Could be they still practice brother-sister incest like the Targaryens, could be they prefer cousin marriages. We don't know the details but it is pretty clear that the Old Blood does not mingle with lesser men. You cannot even pass behind the black wall without an invitation.

10 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

it is clearly stated in the books that only dragonlords practiced incest, and they did it not because they liked it but because it was vital for their ability to control dragons, if they start marrying outside of the dragonlord blood gene pool their descendants might lose the ability to ride dragons. 

That is not stated in the books, it is just an assumption. The dragonlords certainly might have had a reason for starting the incest, and they continued to believe that this was necessary for the dragonriding thing. But others apparently mimicked their behavior, just as people imitate their betters in pretty much all societies.

10 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Your claim about the entire valyrian population practicing incest is unsubstantiated and unsupported by the text, i have not seen a single example of its like during my entire read of all ASOIAF novels and AWOIAF. And we also don't have a single example of the non-dragonlord valyrian elites like the vealryons, celtigars, qoherys practicing incest.

The Velaryons, Celtigars, and Qoherys never ruled as kings in Westeros. If they had tried to marry their sisters they would have been killed as abominations by their neighbors. The Targaryens eventually got away with incestuous marriages but it was the king who arranged such matches.

But there is also little reason to assume that Valyrian families living in or close to Westeros would have had much incentive to mimic the dead dragonlords after the Doom. Incest might still be practiced in Lys and Volantis but there is little reason to do so in other places. 

[The Commentator]

On 4/27/2017 at 2:46 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

On 4/27/2017 at 3:06 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

Then why they didn't rule over themselves and they went to rule over common people? 

The common people were under the thumbs of their ruling "kings", the Starks, Harren, Argilac, Lannister, Gardiner, and Arryn.  It's not as if the common people had freedom and living in luxury before the arrival of the Targaryens.  Take the north as our example.  Pity the poor groom who had a pretty bride because he can count on his lord taking his right to the first night every time.  No one could stop the Umbers, Boltons and Starks from doing this until the Targaryens arrived and changed the laws.  I would argue that the Targaryens helped the common people a lot and made their lives generally easier.  The Targaryens brought revolutionary standards and uniformity to the land of Westeros.  Each little "kingling" made his own laws according to his whims before the conquest.  The Targaryens brought centralization and standardization that, while absolutely not equal to what we have today, were much better than what Westeros had before.  I'm not saying the Targaryens were perfect but they were better than what they replaced.  I can admit to you that we don't know the precise reason why the Targaryens decided to conquer the land but it seems to me they were not simply looking to fill their coffers and exploit people. 

 

 

 

[Kaibaman]

I for one think the Targaryens were a little too benevolent as rulers. While the Targs may have had the oddball in their family from time to time causing trouble and creating political turmoil, in medieval times kings were often constantly at war with their vassals, killing and torturing their enemies and even making the lives of the smallfolk hell in their pursuit for more power. Besides Maegor's brutality towards the Faith Militant (who were asking for it), The DOD and Aerys burning people alive. The Targs appear to have had a pretty good track record. Then again that maybe because they mostly kept a hands off approach to ruling and didn't consolidate more control over their kingdom and just let the ruling houses go about their business uninterrupted. Its kinda strange that besides a few laws here and there, they didn't seem all that interested in centralizing more control for the crown but I suppose since they had dragons, they must not have felt the need to.

[Yucef Menaerys]

On 02/05/2017 at 1:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, we know that the rulers of Volantis were the cousins and kin of the dragonlords back during the war against the Rhoynar. Nothing indicates that this ever changed.

We don't know whether silver-gold hair and purple eyes are an ethnic trait or rather just an extended family trait. Incest began with the dragonlords but it did not stop there. Gyldayn tells us that incest was most common with the families who bred and rode dragons but not restricted to those. Now, if this spread from the dragonlords first to their dragonless cousins it is easily imaginable that they and their descendants ended up looking 'Valyrian' because the incest they practiced throughout the centuries actually ensured that those looks would be both spread and preserved.

We don't know whether this is a completely normal genetic trait that just ended up being preserved by the incest or whether those looks are a consequence of having 'the blood of the dragon'.

It is stated by Gyldayn. And we also know that the Old Blood of Volantis marry amongst themselves. Could be they still practice brother-sister incest like the Targaryens, could be they prefer cousin marriages. We don't know the details but it is pretty clear that the Old Blood does not mingle with lesser men. You cannot even pass behind the black wall without an invitation.

That is not stated in the books, it is just an assumption. The dragonlords certainly might have had a reason for starting the incest, and they continued to believe that this was necessary for the dragonriding thing. But others apparently mimicked their behavior, just as people imitate their betters in pretty much all societies.

The Velaryons, Celtigars, and Qoherys never ruled as kings in Westeros. If they had tried to marry their sisters they would have been killed as abominations by their neighbors. The Targaryens eventually got away with incestuous marriages but it was the king who arranged such matches.

But there is also little reason to assume that Valyrian families living in or close to Westeros would have had much incentive to mimic the dead dragonlords after the Doom. Incest might still be practiced in Lys and Volantis but there is little reason to do so in other places. 

If the rulers of volantis were kin to the dragon lords then that implies that they were also dragonlords which we know is not the case, the author of AWOIAF used the term 'kin' to imply that those people also share thesame ethinicity as the dragonlords ie they're both valyrian 

And could you refer me to the quote were gyldayn  mentions that incest was common/rampant amongst the general valyrian population because I don't seem to remember that being mentioned, I'm not saying it never happened I'm just saying it wasn't as common as you were implying.

Even if the Velaryons, Celtigars, Qoherys would've been condemned as abominations by the faith they could've practiced incest before the conquest, we don't get any mention of these house stopping the practice of incest at one point or another.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

If the rulers of volantis were kin to the dragon lords then that implies that they were also dragonlords which we know is not the case, the author of AWOIAF used the term 'kin' to imply that those people also share thesame ethinicity as the dragonlords ie they're both valyrian.

No, that isn't the case. A dragonlord is a woman or man who actually rides a dragon, not just the descendant or relation of such a person. You can see that in George's own account of the Conquest where it is said that 'All three [Targaryen] siblings had shown themselves to be dragonlords before they wed.' You are only a dragonlord if you mount a dragon, not if you have the potential and never get around to doing it.

12 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

And could you refer me to the quote were gyldayn  mentions that incest was common/rampant amongst the general valyrian population because I don't seem to remember that being mentioned, I'm not saying it never happened I'm just saying it wasn't as common as you were implying.

It is from the sidebar discussing the reign of Aenys I, and a direct quote from the soon to be published 'The Sons of the Dragon':

Quote

This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons.

This indicates that incest was prevalent among many of the families there, although not necessarily among Valyrian commoners, immigrants, etc. And it explicitly says it was not limited to the dragonlord families. We also see that in those Valyrian colonies founded by religious dissidents/extremists (Qohor, Norvos, Lorath) the incest don't seem to be practiced today. But it is among the elite of the cities which were actually founded by the dragonlords or their close kin (i.e. Volantis and Lys).

12 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Even if the Velaryons, Celtigars, Qoherys would've been condemned as abominations by the faith they could've practiced incest before the conquest, we don't get any mention of these house stopping the practice of incest at one point or another.

They could have. But we actually don't whether they were important or old enough. We don't even know whether the Celtigars and the Qoherys have Valyrian looks. I could see the Velaryons having married close kin up until the Conquest but not thereafter. And that means that men like Corlys Velaryon are not of pure Valyrian descent.

[Yucef Menaerys]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, that isn't the case. A dragonlord is a woman or man who actually rides a dragon, not just the descendant or relation of such a person. You can see that in George's own account of the Conquest where it is said that 'All three [Targaryen] siblings had shown themselves to be dragonlords before they wed.' You are only a dragonlord if you mount a dragon, not if you have the potential and never get around to doing it.

So are you saying that those rulers of volantis are from the 40 dragonlord families of valyria who didn't have any dragons? there's nothing that indicates that, besides i'm sure the valyrians have perfected the art of dragon breeding to the point where they could have surplus dragons, during the time before the dance there were so many surplus dragons that didn't have any riders like sheepstealer, vermithor, silverwing, seasmoke, the cannibal etc So the valyrians are capable of breeding enough dragons for their children. And i have mentioned to you before that if any elite valyrian from volantis or lys had the potential to ride a dragon then they would have because those people are rich enough to buy a real dragon egg.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, that isn't the case. A dragonlord is a woman or man who actually rides a dragon, not just the descendant or relation of such a person. You can see that in George's own account of the Conquest where it is said that 'All three [Targaryen] siblings had shown themselves to be dragonlords before they wed.' You are only a dragonlord if you mount a dragon, not if you have the potential and never get around to doing it.

It is from the sidebar discussing the reign of Aenys I, and a direct quote from the soon to be published 'The Sons of the Dragon':

This indicates that incest was prevalent among many of the families there, although not necessarily among Valyrian commoners, immigrants, etc. And it explicitly says it was not limited to the dragonlord families. We also see that in those Valyrian colonies founded by religious dissidents/extremists (Qohor, Norvos, Lorath) the incest don't seem to be practiced today. But it is among the elite of the cities which were actually founded by the dragonlords or their close kin (i.e. Volantis and Lys).

Gyldayn only mentions that it was common among elite dragonlord families not the entire valyrian population, you are just disproving your point as you stated before that incest was common even among the peasant/common valyrians, allow me to quote yourself for you:

"Incest was the predominant marriage custom amongst the dragonlords and later among the entire Valyrian elite and population"

Do you now concede that point ?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

So are you saying that those rulers of volantis are from the 40 dragonlord families of valyria who didn't have any dragons?

More or less, yeah. Some might also be from some dragonlord families who lost their status and powers because their rivals removed them from power. Dragons can be killed, wealth can be spent, and land can be taken from you.

4 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

there's nothing that indicates that, besides i'm sure the valyrians have perfected the art of dragon breeding to the point where they could have surplus dragons, during the time before the dance there were so many surplus dragons that didn't have any riders like sheepstealer, vermithor, silverwing, seasmoke, the cannibal etc So the valyrians are capable of breeding enough dragons for their children.

That is just baseless speculation. Yes, the dragonlords may also have had riderless dragons occasionally. But that doesn't mean they offer them to some distant cousins. Nobody offered Vermithor to Corlys Velaryon after Jaehaerys I's death, despite the fact that man most likely could have become a dragonrider.

It seems that the Valyrian elite did indeed produce more offspring than they cared for in their city. And those people had to make a living elsewhere, eventually moving to Volantis and other cities.

4 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

And i have mentioned to you before that if any elite valyrian from volantis or lys had the potential to ride a dragon then they would have because those people are rich enough to buy a real dragon egg.

The Lyseni and Tyroshi actually killed some dragonlords and dragons who had been in their cities after the Doom. They might have been rather happy that they were gone. Why no Lyseni or Volantenes ever tried to claim one of the wild dragons of Dragonstone in later years or get their hands on some dragon eggs I don't know (although it is possible that some such people tried to mount the Cannibal - there were a lot of human bones in his lair). You would have to ask George that.

4 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Gyldayn only mentions that it was common among elite dragonlord families not the entire valyrian population, you are just disproving your point as you stated before that incest was common even among the peasant/common valyrians, allow me to quote yourself for you:

"Incest was the predominant marriage custom amongst the dragonlords and later among the entire Valyrian elite and population"

Do you now concede that point ?

That may have been an exaggeration. But George says 'ancient families' not elite dragonlord families. And he makes it explicitly clear that it wasn't practiced only among the dragonlords. There could have been quite a few ancient middle-class families in Valyria, who were as far away from being dragonlords as you or I but who were still among the lords freeholder because they owned land. Such people had a voice in the governance of the Freehold, too, and there is even a chance that such people were at times more powerful and wealthier than some impoverished dragonlord family. Dragons in and of themselves don't guarantee that you make good investment decisions.

Valyria was a pretty complex society. There were dragonless landowners, the dragonlords, sorcerer (princes) - the latter most likely even more important than the dragonlords considering that they controlled the Fourteen Flames and worked the Valyrian magic rooted in fire and blood. But there would also have been powerful and influential merchants rising to power and influence behind the scenes, even if they had no official vote in the governance of the Freehold. There might even have been times when an influential slave of a dragonlord family effectively run the government.

[Big P]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

Many Lyseni are actually more likely to be of pure-blooded Valyrian descent, especially those sex slaves that were bred for their looks. They were really bred with other gorgeous looking Valyrians while the Targaryens and other noble Valyrian lines actually had more important things to consider than the looks of their spouses when they were arranging a match.

It is true that many professional girls in Lys are descended from Valyrian ancestors.  I also recall on another thread topic where you mentioned that the later Targaryens have had significant dilutions of their blood.  Too many ingredients in the gene pool.  There may be working girls in Lys who have purer of blood than the later Targaryens.  But none can trace their family line directly back to a Dragonlord.  What I am getting at is that Daenerys Targaryen can actually make a claim that she is the heir to the lands that were part of the Valyrian Freehold.  Westeros is a small fish in a really big ocean. 

So back to the op.  The Targaryens gave up slavery before Aegon and sisters conquered Westeros.  I believe it was a moral decision on their part.  I am biased towards them of course because I like Dany.  I am in agreement with the Op on why the Targs gave up the making of Valyrian Steel.  It probably involved a sinister human sacrifice.  The Targs are individuals just like any other family.  But it seems obvious to me that they could have done whatever they wanted with their dragons but for the most part, the greater majority of them practiced reasonable restraint. 

[Lady Maester]

On 4/26/2017 at 0:56 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Targaryens left behind many of the darker customs of their homeland.  They stopped the practice of slave ownership at some point in their history on Dragonstone.  Aegon fought against the slave-owning state of Volantis and burned their fleet.  Many readers believe the making of Valyrian Steel involve the sacrifice of humans.  Even knowing the value of the metal, the Targaryens themselves did not make attempts to manufacture the weapons for themselves. Prominent Targaryens like Rhaegar settled for regular steel.  Having possession of the last dragons, the Targaryens could have taken advantage and enslaved the Free Cities, made themselves very rich, but instead chose to unify an unruly land in the west.  Allyssane stopped the brutal practice of the lord's right to the first night.  Every family will have its share of asses but I think the Targaryens were pretty good people when compared to most noble families.

it's fitting I suppose (since this is asoiaf) that characters who appear good have their flaws. With the targs, the incest thing is far from moral, especially once they realized it was making future kings potentially insane. And was it really moral to say "comply with our rule, or die by fire?" I'm not so sure. Sure Aegon unified westeros, but he did it through force. And I'm sure horrific things were happening there, perhaps the targs alleviated the fighting between regions, for a time. But their system of government is harmful to the commoners, it eventually leaves them behind. If the targs were that wonderful and kind, they would have implemented a democracy, instead of a monarchy. Perhaps that will be Daenerys' legacy.