Jump to content

Targaryen Morality


Damsel in Distress

Recommended Posts

If they didn't have magic genes and were just like everyone else, then where are everyone else's dragons? Whether it was genetic or magic or even just perception, the fact that they had dragons and nobody else did gives them superiority over the rest of the population (and that's an understatement). Throw in ethereal beauty and they're about as uber-human as you can get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

If they had maybe but we don't know if they did and since the Valyrians were not the only that had dragons I don't see how they are. After all at least the First Men seems to also have magic genes and the Durrandons had Gods' genes.

Then why they didn't rule over themselves and they went to rule over common people? 

True, I didn't think of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The First Men might have had magic genes and the Durrandons descended from gods, but what good has it done them? Where are their magic wolves? (OK, granted), but what godlike power do the present day Baratheons have from their Durrandon heritage? Half of Lys probably has a drop or more of dragonlord blood, but it's redundant if they don't have any dragons. I'm not sure of your point - should the dragonriders be all humble because the people they conquered say they once had magic powers too?

The Targs wanted to rule over the common people because they had the power and obviously thought they'd be good at it. Having a few dragons around the house would probably be good for one's self-esteem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The First Men might have had magic genes and the Durrandons descended from gods, but what good has it done them? Where are their magic wolves? (OK, granted), but what godlike power do the present day Baratheons have from their Durrandon heritage? Half of Lys probably has a drop or more of dragonlord blood, but it's redundant if they don't have any dragons. I'm not sure of your point - should the dragonriders be all humble because the people they conquered say they once had magic powers too?

The Targs wanted to rule over the common people because they had the power and obviously thought they'd be good at it. Having a few dragons around the house would probably be good for one's self-esteem.

I agree, although I'm not sure about the lyseni having a drop of dragonlord blood, their blood is far too diluted to have retained the magical genes of the valyrian dragonlords, and if they had drops of dragonlord blood the we would see some of them with dragons because I'm sure there are lyseni rich enough to buy a couple of dragon eggs like illyrio did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I doubt the Lyseni have the power to start a new dynasty of dragonlords. That's kind of my point - the Lyseni (some of them) are descended from vacationing dragonlords, but their heritage is of no use or benefit to them because they're so far removed from the magic and power of the days of the Freehold. Just as the current day Baratheons/Durrandons are descended from gods - that doesn't make them gods, or anything special really. It just gives them great tales to tell of their legendary past.

But the Targaryens still had (have) dragons, so no amount of posturing from First Men or Durrandons about their heroic ancestry is going to impress the people who control fire-breathing monsters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

I agree, although I'm not sure about the lyseni having a drop of dragonlord blood, their blood is far too diluted to have retained the magical genes of the valyrian dragonlords, and if they had drops of dragonlord blood the we would see some of them with dragons because I'm sure there are lyseni rich enough to buy a couple of dragon eggs like illyrio did.

Many Lyseni are actually more likely to be of pure-blooded Valyrian descent, especially those sex slaves that were bred for their looks. They were really bred with other gorgeous looking Valyrians while the Targaryens and other noble Valyrian lines actually had more important things to consider than the looks of their spouses when they were arranging a match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think given how much power they had they could be absolutely horrible and noone could have stopped them before they lost the dragons. That said I suspect a part of the reason they didn't bring slavery to westeros is because it would have made it alot harder to rule. I think for a noble house they were good overall. That said with the exception of the starks every other noble house is at least partially filled with evil people. The tyrells are on the so so side when it comes to that but I have a feeling that will change. If your comparing them to other noble houses it is for the most part a VERY VERY low bar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Many Lyseni are actually more likely to be of pure-blooded Valyrian descent, especially those sex slaves that were bred for their looks. They were really bred with other gorgeous looking Valyrians while the Targaryens and other noble Valyrian lines actually had more important things to consider than the looks of their spouses when they were arranging a match.

The lyseni sex slaves were bred with other common valyrians who mostly likely don't have any dragonlord blood, there's a difference between dragonlord blood and valyrian blood, dragonlord blood is the special magical blood of the nobility of valyria while valyrian blood is just the same as the blood of any other people. I imagine a typical valyrian will have just as much difficulty trying to ride a dragon as a westerosi peasant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/30/2017 at 6:35 AM, snow is the man said:

I think given how much power they had they could be absolutely horrible and noone could have stopped them before they lost the dragons. That said I suspect a part of the reason they didn't bring slavery to westeros is because it would have made it alot harder to rule. I think for a noble house they were good overall. That said with the exception of the starks every other noble house is at least partially filled with evil people. The tyrells are on the so so side when it comes to that but I have a feeling that will change. If your comparing them to other noble houses it is for the most part a VERY VERY low bar

Where did you get the notion that the starks don't have their fair share of evil people? classic stark fanboysim. Ever heard of Theon the hungry wolf? Allow me to quote the wiki:

"Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders"

It is also possible that the night's king was/is a stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

The lyseni sex slaves were bred with other common valyrians who mostly likely don't have any dragonlord blood, there's a difference between dragonlord blood and valyrian blood, dragonlord blood is the special magical blood of the nobility of valyria while valyrian blood is just the same as the blood of any other people. I imagine a typical valyrian will have just as much difficulty trying to ride a dragon as a westerosi peasant.

That is actually very unlikely. Lys was founded as a pleasure retreat for the dragonlords. They flew there on dragon back to enjoy themselves, and most, if not all, of the sex slave bloodlines from which the later independent rulers of Lys bred the present Lysene sex slaves would have began as bastards of dragonlords fathered on other dragonlord bastards. Lys was the place where the dragonlords fucked themselves, basically.

And there is actually no sign that Valyrian looks are not qualities that actually visibly mark the presence of the blood of the dragon. The dragonlords founded the Freehold of Valyria and we know that cadet branches of various dragonlord families - the cousins and kin of the dragonlords - still rule Volantis to this day as the Old Blood.

The idea that the average Valyrian citizen who is not related to any dragonlord has the looks (silver-gold hair, purple eyes, etc.) that are characteristic traits of dragonlord ancestry is actually very unlikely.

Incest was the predominant marriage custom amongst the dragonlords and later among the entire Valyrian elite and population, but it seems the dragonlords were pretty fertile and not all of their children would have had close kin to marry, nor would the dragonlords have had dragons for all of their relations. This is why cadet branches of them eventually moved west and founded Volantis and other places. Others may have settled in Valyria itself or the Lands of the Long Summer and becoming some sort of middle class or making up the elite of the Freehold immediately beneath the dragonlords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Are people (or one person, rather) really arguing that the Targs didn't follow the faith? Baelor the Blessed was so pious he walked into a literal pit of vipers, thinking the Gods would protect him.

Well the Targaryens aren't a homogenous mass with a hivemind. Their many generations feature a wide range of different personalities and it stands to reason that some of them genuinely believed in the Seven and some of them were cynical, really some individuals might have even felt drawn to the Old Gods, the various remnants of the aboriginal First Men believes (such as the Drowned God) or the various religions from Essos and elsewhere.

Though even the cynical, secular or downright atheist ones (if any) would have kept up an appearance of piety and ceremony because the Faith of the Seven is very important to a majority of their subjects. Even today a ruler who steps up to the podium and flat out says something like "Fuck the Church" would not go over very well. 

The question is why Aegon and the Sisters adopted the Faith of the Seven and here I genuinely think that Aegon and his sisters didn't believe in the Seven, but adopted their worship outwardly to seem less foreign and alien.

The same might be true for their adoption of other Westerosi customs such as banners and the outlawing of slavery. Sure they have Dragons and can enforce their will if needed, but in Feudal Realms it's often easier to conquer a title than to hold on to it and consolidate your power.
The conquering Targaryens had to make concessions to Westerosi culture if they wanted to have their peace, otherwise it would have just been non-stop Dragonfire and war until Westeros was just as scorched and barren as Valyria post-doom.
So it's easier to just kneel before some statues and recite some words. Also quicker.

But it's perfectly possible for Aegon to be an agnostic, atheist, follower of any sort of Valyrian or Essosi faith and for Baelor being a devout follower of the Seven at the same time. It's even possible that Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya had differing views on religion and/or faith. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2017-4-27 at 3:22 PM, The Doctor's Consort said:

No one disagrees with that. The point is that the Targs were morally wrong to deceive the rest of Westeros in order to use them. 

 

I wouldn't say they deceived the rest of Westeros. They openly married their kin before the conquest and afterwards. I doubt any of the nobles felt they were deceived as the Targs never claimed they were going to stop marrying their kin. Yes Aegon used the faith to help secure his realm, but would it have been morally better to reject the faith because he was married to his sisters and then cause the deaths of thousands more? Are Targs that didn't practice incest automatically morally superior to those that did?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Where did you get the notion that the starks doesn't have its fair share of evil people? classic stark fanboysim. Ever heard of Theon the hungry wolf? Allow me to quote the wiki:

"Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders"

It is also possible that the night's king was/is a stark.

I was talking about in the recent times. If we are going back throughout history yeah they all have their fair share of evil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I was talking about in the recent times. If we are going back throughout history yeah they all have their fair share of evil.

Arya has done evil things like the murder of that old man at the restaurant in Braavos.  Daeron was a questionable kill as well.  Bran wargs Hodor for his own amusement.  Robb and Jon are oathbreakers.  Sansa is poisoning a helpless little boy who trusts her. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Targaryens are no more evil or good than any other family. Since they were the rulers of Westeros and therefore had a greater deal of power than anyone else, their good deeds and bad deeds had a greater reach (and thus appeared better or worse) than other people's actions.

Overall, I'd argue that the Targaryens had a net positive effect. But considering they had dragons, they could have done better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Targaryens aren't more cynical in their approach to the Seven and religion in general. Tyrion, Stannis, Cersei, Tywin, Sandor, etc. are either atheists or non-believers who simply don't care about religion. But they all put on a good show for the general population which are kept in line by the scriptures and doctrines of the Faith.

There are only five POVs that are genuine believers - Catelyn, Davos, Melisandre, Aeron, and Victarion - and only two of them really care all that much about their religion.

The majority of the great lords should view religion as a tool and a means to an end, not something they take all that seriously. There are some pious lords and noblemen, of course, but considering that they also get an education religion isn't all that important to them. Cat prays to the Seven but she prefers the medical skills of a maester to the prayers of a septon.

In that sense there is likely little difference between the Targaryens and the other noble houses. And there were quite a few genuine believers among the Targaryens - Baelor the Blessed, Daeron II (most likely, considering that he surrounded himself with septons), Maekar, even Aerys II.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens aren't more cynical in their approach to the Seven and religion in general. Tyrion, Stannis, Cersei, Tywin, Sandor, etc. are either atheists or non-believers who simply don't care about religion. But they all put on a good show for the general population which are kept in line by the scriptures and doctrines of the Faith.

There are only five POVs that are genuine believers - Catelyn, Davos, Melisandre, Aeron, and Victarion - and only two of them really care all that much about their religion.

The majority of the great lords should view religion as a tool and a means to an end, not something they take all that seriously. There are some pious lords and noblemen, of course, but considering that they also get an education religion isn't all that important to them. Cat prays to the Seven but she prefers the medical skills of a maester to the prayers of a septon.

In that sense there is likely little difference between the Targaryens and the other noble houses. And there were quite a few genuine believers among the Targaryens - Baelor the Blessed, Daeron II (most likely, considering that he surrounded himself with septons), Maekar, even Aerys II.

I'd toss Ned and Sansa in too, though it might be fair to question how sincere Sansa is holding both the old and the new gods. I think you could make an argument for Theon too. Sam prays to the old god a few times out of desperation, but that's not really "genuine belief."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Arya has done evil things like the murder of that old man at the restaurant in Braavos.  Daeron was a questionable kill as well.  Bran wargs Hodor for his own amusement.  Robb and Jon are oathbreakers.  Sansa is poisoning a helpless little boy who trusts her. 

rob and jon are not horrible though despite what alot of people think. arya I think has seen alot and was always the outcast of the family and after she had to fight so hard I think it left her broken. Though she was never a shining beacon of good. Sansa is a character I rarely pay much attention to so I forgot about that. And bran I forgot he did that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...