Gamergaters Please attempt to claim this isn't objectification

[Centrist Simon Steele]

43 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Thankfully I think most people have cooled off on treating Anita as some sort of relevant feminist and realizing she's just another youtuber trying to make a buck. Im not a big supporter of modern feminism but even I was offended when she was getting recognition as a leading feminist for her trivial nonsense, when there are literally millions of feminists actually putting in real work.

 

I disagree--I think we can't label her intent as a cash grab. Her beliefs are her own, and she has every right to them whether or not you or I feel they are valid. And to take what she believes as important and necessary for progressive change and equate it to a cash grab is a subversive method of discrediting her. I hate everything she says, disagree with it vehemently, but I am a white male. How could I possibly understand where she is coming from with these issues?

I thought about this the other day when I was listening to a podcast where one of the hosts said he was queer, and the first time when he was a kid he played a game that referenced one of the main characters having a gay friend, even though that gay friend was in only one scene and disappeared from the game completely, it made him feel like someone out there looked at him and said, "hey, we see you, and you're okay. We know you're there, and you're part of us." Just a single scene. I started thinking about if I ever felt that way about a book, a movie, or a game--where I felt like someone noticed me and included who I was, and I realized I had never felt that. Every game included me. I never experienced what this man was talking about. That is extremely sad to me. That is white privilege, right? It's not malevolent or purposeful, but it affects us in so many ways without realizing it--even in how we feel when viewing/interacting with media.

What right do I have to judge Anita Sarkeesian? I'm looking through my PC games right now that I have loaded on my computer. The Witcher 3 (phenomenal, and addresses a number of issues in mature ways, and I suppose Geralt is a white male, but of all the games I have, it plays the most with blurring lines); Axiom Verge, Deus Ex, Lords of Shadow, Final Fantasy XIII, Van Helsing, Metro, Risen 3, Gothic 2, Gothic 3, Assassin's Creed Unity, Double Dragon IV, and the Phantom Pain. Of all those, FF13 has a female lead. The rest are white males--maybe Van Helsing isn't, you could argue his being covered from head to toe allows you to role play, but otherwise, these are white guys. Billy and Jimmy Lee are based on Bruce Lee, I suppose, but they're so white. I'm not saying this is bad or a problem, I'm just saying I don't think things have changed.

[DunderMifflin]

7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I disagree--I think we can't label her intent as a cash grab. Her beliefs are her own, and she has every right to them whether or not you or I feel they are valid. And to take what she believes as important and necessary for progressive change and equate it to a cash grab is a subversive method of discrediting her. I hate everything she says, disagree with it vehemently, but I am a white male. How could I possibly understand where she is coming from with these issues?

I thought about this the other day when I was listening to a podcast where one of the hosts said he was queer, and the first time when he was a kid he played a game that referenced one of the main characters having a gay friend, even though that gay friend was in only one scene and disappeared from the game completely, it made him feel like someone out there looked at him and said, "hey, we see you, and you're okay. We know you're there, and you're part of us." Just a single scene. I started thinking about if I ever felt that way about a book, a movie, or a game--where I felt like someone noticed me and included who I was, and I realized I had never felt that. Every game included me. I never experienced what this man was talking about. That is extremely sad to me. That is white privilege, right? It's not malevolent or purposeful, but it affects us in so many ways without realizing it--even in how we feel when viewing/interacting with media.

What right do I have to judge Anita Sarkeesian? I'm looking through my PC games right now that I have loaded on my computer. The Witcher 3 (phenomenal, and addresses a number of issues in mature ways, and I suppose Geralt is a white male, but of all the games I have, it plays the most with blurring lines); Axiom Verge, Deus Ex, Lords of Shadow, Final Fantasy XIII, Van Helsing, Metro, Risen 3, Gothic 2, Gothic 3, Assassin's Creed Unity, Double Dragon IV, and the Phantom Pain. Of all those, FF13 has a female lead. The rest are white males--maybe Van Helsing isn't, you could argue his being covered from head to toe allows you to role play, but otherwise, these are white guys. Billy and Jimmy Lee are based on Bruce Lee, I suppose, but they're so white. I'm not saying this is bad or a problem, I'm just saying I don't think things have changed.

That's a nice sentiment but she directly accuses devs of purposefully making sexist elements in games with the clear intent of reinforcing and advocating male supremacy, female opression, and so on. So I don't feel the least bit bad about accusing her of merely trying to make a buck.
But fine if it makes you happy, then I'll say she's really stupid enough to actually believe her own bullshit.
Even though ya know she raised over 100k in donations for a 15 minute video complaining about video games and people make full length feature films for less than that but ok whatever she believes her bullshit,  or she's trying to get paid, or both. Whichever way you want to put it, that's fine with me.
Her videos are trivial nonsense though, on that point I won't budge.

[DunderMifflin]

Also I don't sympathize with your point about games always catering to your white male privilege because the games I've played the most in my life have very few white people in them.

 

Also I don't form an identity with a character simply because they share similar skin tone with me. I'm absolutely nothing like Geralt, completely foreign to me.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

31 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Also I don't sympathize with your point about games always catering to your white male privilege because the games I've played the most in my life have very few white people in them.

 

Also I don't form an identity with a character simply because they share similar skin tone with me. I'm absolutely nothing like Geralt, completely foreign to me.

 

I don't know your background, who you are, where you come from, but for me, as a white male, listening to the stories of others, it was incredibly painful to realize how hard it must be to never be able to have someone similar to you in a game. Geralt was not the point I was trying to make, he was just in the list of games I had and, I suppose, I can identify with a middle aged white male--who is questioning his place in the world and how he's affected the world around him--well enough if push came to shove, now that you mention it. 

But most games have features white male sprites, and that's more what I meant. It doesn't matter though, I suppose I won't convince you. I just want to iterate--this is not an issue of white males being malevolent. Only that we benefit from a system, sometimes in strange ways, that favors us.

[DunderMifflin]

3 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I don't know your background, who you are, where you come from, but for me, as a white male, listening to the stories of others, it was incredibly painful to realize how hard it must be to never be able to have someone similar to you in a game. Geralt was not the point I was trying to make, he was just in the list of games I had and, I suppose, I can identify with a middle aged white male--who is questioning his place in the world and how he's affected the world around him--well enough if push came to shove, now that you mention it. 

But most games have features white male sprites, and that's more what I meant. It doesn't matter though, I suppose I won't convince you. I just want to iterate--this is not an issue of white males being malevolent. Only that we benefit from a system, sometimes in strange ways, that favors us.

How do you know that white male sprite isn't actually Japanese??

 

 

 

 

 

[Stubby]

12 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

When you have no argument it helps to pretend you write hacky one liners for the Daily Show.

Simply declaring that you because you believe something to be different from what it actually is is not a valid form of argument. Of course, plenty of people have done that over history - climate change deniers, flat earthers, chemtrail exponents, holocaust deniers as examples - and they were all wrong.

Clinging to a discredited position based on nothing more than your belief is neither persuasive nor convincing of your position.

[DunderMifflin]

16 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Simply declaring that you because you believe something to be different from what it actually is is not a valid form of argument. Of course, plenty of people have done that over history - climate change deniers, flat earthers, chemtrail exponents, holocaust deniers as examples - and they were all wrong.

Clinging to a discredited position based on nothing more than your belief is neither persuasive nor convincing of your position.

Keep pretending making a snarky comment means that you've discredited something, If that does something for you. 

 

See there's a process you can do to prove a flat earther wrong. And it isn't just saying crappy putdowns  to them on the internet.

[Stubby]

7 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Keep pretending making a snarky comment means that you've discredited something, If that does something for you. 

LOL

I didn't start this engagement by making a snarky comment.  I mentioned that True Metis had comprehensively proved you wrong.  Then you descended to snark.  But of course we know that you are constitutionally incapable of accepting criticisms of your opinions because you say so.

[DunderMifflin]

3 minutes ago, Stubby said:

LOL

I didn't start this engagement by making a snarky comment.  I mentioned that True Metis had comprehensively proved you wrong.  Then you descended to snark.  But of course we know that you are constitutionally incapable of accepting criticisms of your opinions because you say so.

Again, there are ways to prove a flat earther wrong but " cuz TrueMetris said so" doesn't cut it.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

How do you know that white male sprite isn't actually Japanese??

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know--Mario, Link, Simon Belmont--go ahead and argue their non-whiteness. Honestly, the biggest NES and SNES games were white males. Again, this isn't bad but it is pointing to an issue. Let me ask you--if this were all true, what I'm saying, would it bother you? If it would bother you, could you explain why?  

[Stubby]

17 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Again, there are ways to prove a flat earther wrong but " cuz TrueMetris said so" doesn't cut it.

I never said that it was true cuz True Metis said so. I said he had proven you wrong.  But, you know, I'm just being snarky.

Engaging with a flat earther:

1. Flat earther claims the world is flat.

2. Evidence produced includes a photograph from space. The Earth is round. Curvature of the earth at sea.  Curvature of the earth from an aircraft. And so on. The flat earther is demonstrably incorrect.

3. Flat earther.

Engaging with DunderMifflin:

1. DunderMifflin claims that Sailor Moon is not Japanese because she has blonde hair.

2. Evidence produced that all of the Sailor characters in that universe have unnatural hair colour, have Japanese names, were born in Japan, live in Japan etc.  DunderMifflin is demonstrably incorrect.

3. DunderMifflin ignores all that and claims that his belief trumps the actual evidence to the contrary.

Let's test that theory.

Do you now accept that suggesting that Sailor Moon is not Japanese just because she has blonde hair was a ridiculous claim?  If not, why? And please include something other than a suggestion that it is your belief.

Bear in mid that you made the positive assertion about blonde hair being the test for not-Japanese-ness.  You have the onus of proving that and so far all you have produced is your "belief".  That doesn't cut it.

[DunderMifflin]

7 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I don't know--Mario, Link, Simon Belmont--go ahead and argue their non-whiteness. Honestly, the biggest NES and SNES games were white males. Again, this isn't bad but it is pointing to an issue. Let me ask you--if this were all true, what I'm saying, would it bother you? If it would bother you, could you explain why?  

You must have missed the earlier part of the thread where I argued that anime characters were made to look european.

The counter argument was that nope they are 100% Japanese, even when they have blue eyes and blonde hair. Or in cases where it's pointed out that they are not japanese.
I don't see how it can be both ways.
If they are anime characters that you think look white they are totally Japanese.
But if they are video game characters  created by Japanese that look white then they are white.

[DunderMifflin]

4 minutes ago, Stubby said:

I never said that it was true cuz True Metis said so. I said he had proven you wrong.  But, you know, I'm just being snarky.

Engaging with a flat earther:

1. Flat earther claims the world is flat.

2. Evidence produced includes a photograph from space. The Earth is round. Curvature of the earth at sea.  Curvature of the earth from an aircraft. And so on. The flat earther is demonstrably incorrect.

3. Flat earther.

Engaging with DunderMifflin:

1. DunderMifflin claims that Sailor Moon is not Japanese because she has blonde hair.

2. Evidence produced that all of the Sailor characters in that universe have unnatural hair colour, have Japanese names, were born in Japan, live in Japan etc.  DunderMifflin is demonstrably incorrect.

3. DunderMifflin ignores all that and claims that his belief trumps the actual evidence to the contrary.

Let's test that theory.

Do you now accept that suggesting that Sailor Moon is not Japanese just because she has blonde hair was a ridiculous claim?  If not, why? And please include something other than a suggestion that it is your belief.

Bear in mid that you made the positive assertion about blonde hair being the test for not-Japanese-ness.  You have the onus of proving that and so far all you have produced is your "belief".  That doesn't cut it.

This has been covered already. Neither you or I are in the minds of Japanese animators so you didn't prove or discredit anything and neither did i.

So there's not much point in continuing this line, unless you just want to argue on the internet. Which I suspect it's really what you want to do. Not that I disprove if arguing on the internet but I can still point that you are smugly claiming some sort of victory of discreditation that never happened.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

8 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

You must have missed the earlier part of the thread where I argued that anime characters were made to look european.

The counter argument was that nope they are 100% Japanese, even when they have blue eyes and blonde hair. Or in cases where it's pointed out that they are not japanese.
I don't see how it can be both ways.
If they are anime characters that you think look white they are totally Japanese.
But if they are video game characters  created by Japanese that look white then they are white.

 

No I saw them...and I just don't get what you're saying. I don't know if anyone does. But whatever, this argument isn't about you.

[Stubby]

9 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

This has been covered already. Neither you or I are in the minds of Japanese animators so you didn't prove or discredit anything and neither did i.

So there's not much point in continuing this line, unless you just want to argue on the internet. Which I suspect it's really what you want to do. Not that I disprove if arguing on the internet but I can still point that you are smugly claiming some sort of victory of discreditation that never happened.

Again you produce nothing of substance. Just like a flat earther.

[DunderMifflin]

10 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

No I saw them...and I just don't get what you're saying. I don't know if anyone does. But whatever, this argument isn't about you.

Just give it time, Stubby is super focused on making this entire thread about petty putdowns between me and him.

[Stubby]

10 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Just give it time, Stubby is super focused on making this entire thread about petty putdowns between me and him.

Well if you ever posted anything sensible or meaningful it would help.

[DunderMifflin]

I rest my case

[DunderMifflin]

57 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

No I saw them...and I just don't get what you're saying. I don't know if anyone does. But whatever, this argument isn't about you.

Why is a random video game sprite that looks white automatically white but a random anime character that looks white automatically Japanese? Unless you are agreeing with me that anime characters are made to look European.

As for the Simon Belmont example, that dude would be Romanian if anything. I don't think it's any sort of white privilege to play a game about some Romanians. I don't automatically identity with some Romanians just because they share similar skin tone as me. They are just as foreign to me as they are to any other American of any skin color.

 

[Stubby]

23 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I rest my case

If your contributions to this thread constitute your case, then I have no case to answer.  But I'm going to address your non-case because it is not about you.  It is about your unsubstantiated opinion being corrected, in a situation where the thinking of non-posting readers of the discussion are of more importance than your opinion.

All you can claim to support your opinion is your belief.  This is the same position you consistently adopt.  It is a sad thing that reliance on ignorance and misguided beliefs are considered good things in the current public sphere.  Such attitudes have given the world lowered vaccination levels.  Such attitudes have the world at the mercy of an ignorant buffoon with his fingers on a nuclear trigger.  Challenging such attitudes is of profound importance. Challenging such attitudes is made easier by the availability of evidence to contradict silly beliefs.

In this case, the topic at hand is whether you can prove that blonde hair is enough to ensure that an animated character is Japanese.  You have failed to do so, yet somehow think your belief is more important than the evidence to the contrary. Admittedly, your opinion is something that is not all that earthshaking in importance when compared to the silly beliefs referred to above, but the principle behind the need to prove a position is the same. And I address my remarks in these situations to the readers of the thread who don't post.  If even one of those readers comes to understand that raising a silly opinion and then refusing to support it by evidence is a bad thing, so much the better.

And really, every single time you cite your belief as your 'evidence' for your opinion, you are making my argument easier.