Gamergaters Please attempt to claim this isn't objectification

[DunderMifflin]

10 minutes ago, Stubby said:

If your contributions to this thread constitute your case, then I have no case to answer.  But I'm going to address your non-case because it is not about you.  It is about your unsubstantiated opinion being corrected, in a situation where the thinking of non-posting readers of the discussion are of more importance than your opinion.

All you can claim to support your opinion is your belief.  This is the same position you consistently adopt.  It is a sad thing that reliance on ignorance and misguided beliefs are considered good things in the current public sphere.  Such attitudes have given the world lowered vaccination levels.  Such attitudes have the world at the mercy of an ignorant buffoon with his fingers on a nuclear trigger.  Challenging such attitudes is of profound importance. Challenging such attitudes is made easier by the availability of evidence to contradict silly beliefs.

In this case, the topic at hand is whether you can prove that blonde hair is enough to ensure that an animated character is Japanese.  You have failed to do so, yet somehow think your belief is more important than the evidence to the contrary. Admittedly, your opinion is something that is not all that earthshaking in importance when compared to the silly beliefs referred to above, but the principle behind the need to prove a position is the same. And I address my remarks in these situations to the readers of the thread who don't post.  If even one of those readers comes to understand that raising a silly opinion and then refusing to support it by evidence is a bad thing, so much the better.

And really, every single time you cite your belief as your 'evidence' for your opinion, you are making my argument easier.

And that's ALL I need. Im not forcing anyone else to believe it.

But plenty do as I've already said.

I've said many times there's no way to prove my belief. There's no way to prove or disprove it. Yet here you are still smugly proclaiming something has been proven.

[Stubby]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

And that's ALL I need. Im not forcing anyone else to believe it.

But plenty do as I've already said.

Which means you are content to be ignorant.  Good for you.  Why then did you try to denigrate the point of this thread by stating your opinion?

Also, seeing as you were the one who raised non-substantive replies (by suggesting that I was just using crappy one liners as a position), please put your beliefs to the test and answer my questions from above, viz:

Quote

Do you now accept that suggesting that Sailor Moon is not Japanese just because she has blonde hair was a ridiculous claim?  If not, why? And please include something other than a suggestion that it is your belief.

 

[DunderMifflin]

18 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Which means you are content to be ignorant.  Good for you.  Why then did you try to denigrate the point of this thread by stating your opinion?

Also, seeing as you were the one who raised non-substantive replies (by suggesting that I was just using crappy one liners as a position), please put your beliefs to the test and answer my questions from above, viz:

 

No, thats not at all what it means.

 

As for your question, no I do not accept that thinking sailor moon is made to look european white because of blonde hair and blue eyes. Even if I'm wrong. I and others have provided enough circumstantial evidence for it not to be a ridiculous claim. Add to that, it's very common for european whites to look at anime characters and think they are purposely made to look like white europeans, even further supporting it not being a ridiculous claim.
Also, very common for black Americans to think anime characters are made to look like white people, even further supporting it not being a ridiculous claim.
Same goes for all the other races in America (even Asian Americans)

But like I said, keep pretending your are some sort of brilliant mind delivering round earth truth bombs to ignorant flat earthers if it makes you feel good.

[Stubby]

13 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

No, thats not at all what it means.

 

As for your question, no I do not accept that thinking sailor moon is made to look european white because of blonde hair and blue eyes. Even if I'm wrong. I and others have provided enough circumstantial evidence for it not to be a ridiculous claim. Add to that, it's very common for european whites to look at anime characters and think they are purposely made to look like white europeans, even further supporting it not being a ridiculous claim.
Also, very common for black Americans to think anime characters are made to look like white people, even further supporting it not being a ridiculous claim.
Same goes for all the other races in America (even Asian Americans)

But like I said, keep pretending your are some sort of brilliant mind delivering round earth truth bombs to ignorant flat earthers if it makes you feel good.

OK, please tell us all what it means in your head.  I mean, we all know from previous discussions that you have your own personal private definitions for things so please enlighten us.

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As for your question, no I do not accept that thinking sailor moon is made to look european white because of blonde hair and blue eyes.

Damn, you have a short memory:

On 27/04/2017 at 7:43 AM, DunderMifflin said:

Sailor Moon has blonde hair and blue eyes. Her whole crew is obvious teenage white girls.

What evidence do you have for "very common" as used above?

Quote

But like I said, keep pretending your are some sort of brilliant mind delivering round earth truth bombs to ignorant flat earthers if it makes you feel good.

I don't have to pretend in your case.

[DunderMifflin]

8 minutes ago, Stubby said:

OK, please tell us all what it means in your head.  I mean, we all know from previous discussions that you have your own personal private definitions for things so please enlighten us.

I already did.

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Damn, you have a short memory:

No I just corrected you without pointing out that I corrected you.

Quote

What evidence do you have for "very common" as used above?

Google "why do anime characters look white". You'll find a rabbit hole of debate.

Also Google Talib Kwali anime.

I don't have the means to prove beyond the shadow of doubt that its very common. All I can do is say anecdotal evidence. I've never ever ever met a flat earther. I've met too many people to count who think anime characters look like white people.

Quote

I don't have to pretend in your case.

Yes you do, you even have to stoop to comparing me to a holocaust denier.

[Stubby]

2 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I already did.

No I just corrected you without pointing out that I corrected you.

Google "why do anime characters look white". You'll find a rabbit hole of debate.

Also Google Talib Kwali anime.

I don't have the means to prove beyond the shadow of doubt that its very common. All I can do is say anecdotal evidence. I've never ever ever met a flat earther. I've met too many people to count who think anime characters look like white people.

Yes you do, you even have to stoop to comparing me to a holocaust denier.

Well your logic cap fits, so...

[DunderMifflin]

5 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Well your logic cap fits, so...

Jokes on you Im not wearing a hat and you can't prove I am. Oooooohhhh high five to myself I just delivered some sick round earth truth to that flat earthing.

[Stubby]

27 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Jokes on you Im not wearing a hat and you can't prove I am. Oooooohhhh high five to myself I just delivered some sick round earth truth to that flat earthing.

It wouldn't matter if I did prove it.  You would just claim that your belief trumps my proof.

[DunderMifflin]

10 minutes ago, Stubby said:

It wouldn't matter if I did prove it.  You would just claim that your belief trumps my proof.

And you'd still argue with me for pages and pages and pages even after claiming Ive never posted anything meaningful or sensible. Yet there you will be, dishing out low grade insult after insult.

Until you get bored of course, at which point you will bring out the good old "youre trolling!" accusation.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Apparently there is a term for this:

Mukokuseki

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mukokuseki

 

Quote

Mukokuseki (jp: 無国籍) is the use of physical features associated with certain ethnic groups in anime such as round eyes, light skin, height and a variety of hair colors. It literally means "stateless" (i.e. "without nationality"), though the term relates to more abstract anime, and in this case, used hyperbolically.

[Stubby]

Just now, DunderMifflin said:

And you'd still argue with me for pages and pages and pages even after claiming Ive never posted anything meaningful or sensible. Yet there you will be, dishing out low grade insult after insult.

I already explained why I do so.

Face it mate, you made a silly suggestion about people focusing on the physical aspects of one particular animated character as a reasonable basis for concluding that this character was not Japanese.  When evidence was produced that put her appearance in context - by including all of the other clues - like her name, language, place of birth and home nation - you ignored it and doubled down on your position. You have still not addressed why it is reasonable to ignore all that evidence that contradicted your initial proposal.

By focusing on the physical, you were reducing the character to an object.  Or, dare I say it, "objectifying" the character.  When the character is seen as a whole, the character is demonstrably Japanese.  This was proven to you within a few posts.  That you continue to complain about how the physical aspects of this character just highlights how you don't understand what objectifying actually is.  

And every post you make without adding anything to support your initial statement proves me correct.  You are doing a bang-up job of highlighting the lack of thinking in your position.  I will now pause to hope that you reflect on this, but I expect to see a comment where you don't believe that such is the case, or yet another allegation of snark.

[DunderMifflin]

11 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Apparently there is a term for this:

Mukokuseki

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mukokuseki

 

 

Obviously holocaust deniers and flat earthers.

still not buying the default human claim though because it's not just white people who think anime characters look white.

[Stubby]

30 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Obviously holocaust deniers and flat earthers.

Now this is truly funny, but not for the reasons you think.

The link C4JS produced is evidence that people who produce such characters as "stateless" contradicts, to a certain extent, my position.  So it is not at all like flat-earthers or holocaust deniers - as they disregard evidence.

Of course, naming these characters with Japanese names, Japanese residence, Japanese places of birth etc detracts from the artistic attempt at statelessness.

And I notice my prediction about snark was correct.

[DunderMifflin]

1 minute ago, Stubby said:

Now this is truly funny, but not for the reasons you think.

The link C4JS produced is evidence that people who produce such characters as "stateless" contradicts, to a certain extent, my position.  So it is not at all like flat-earthers or holocaust deniers - as they disregard evidence.

Of course, naming these characters with Japanese names, Japanese residence, Japanese places of birth etc detracts from the artistic attempt at statelessness.

I'm not even debating whatever your position is. I'm just saying thinking anime characters are white isn't "ridiculous" or to be compared to denying the holocaust or saying the earth is flat.

And I actually somewhat lied about never meeting a flat earther. I've just never met a serious one. I met a dentist at a Christmas party that said he does flat earth shit online just to troll people. Said most people have no clue how to explain to someone that the earth is not flat.

[Stubby]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

I'm not even debating whatever your position is. I'm just saying thinking anime characters are white isn't "ridiculous" or to be compared to denying the holocaust or saying the earth is flat.

And I actually somewhat lied about never meeting a flat earther. I've just never met a serious one. I met a dentist at a Christmas party that said he does flat earth shit online just to troll people. Said most people have no clue how to explain to someone that the earth is not flat.

Yeah I understand that, because I have no idea what you are debating most of the time, because you try and maintain that your beliefs are reasonable in the face of contrary evidence.  Notice how I accepted that C4JS' link somewhat contradicted my position?  You don't do that, ever.

None of your second paragraph makes any sense in the discussion.

Your first paragraph ignores every fact cited against your position since the start of the thread.  You are focused on the physical aspects of the character, rather than the character as a whole. You've been given all the information you need to rationally understand that point but you are ignoring it - hence the comparison to flat earthers and holocaust deniers and antivax conspiracy theorists, and entitlement arguers - who all apply the same lack of logic.  Hence the comparison - purely made as an attempt to put your logic fail into perspective.

If you can accept, as a starting point, that your initial assertion about blonde hair on a character making her not-Japanese was based purely on the physical representation, we might be getting somewhere.

[Jo498]

I have not played the games but the Geralt of the Witcher books is sociologically clearly not a "white male" in the sense of belonging to a dominant, privileged or powerful demographic. He is a freak or outcast from mainstream society in almost any respect. Of course his special minority does not easily map unto real world minorities because fantasy.

I watched a few Sarkeesian videos several years ago before I knew anything about the controversies and I could agree with her a lot of the time. (I might disagree on whether some kind of censorship should follow from such analyses.)

There are also at least two reasons why videogames came to special attention only recently. It used to be niche compared to mainstream "grown-ups" culture (like books and movies), so not many people cared (or at least the (typically male) demographic most into the games did not). And it seems quite different if one incorporates a character who can e.g. rape or abduct women (and might even get "game points" for doing such) or if someone just passively watches e.g. violent porn. (And obviously (violent) porn has also been criticized sharply since forever.)

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Jo498 said:

I have not played the games but the Geralt of the Witcher books is sociologically clearly not a "white male" in the sense of belonging to a dominant, privileged or powerful demographic. He is a freak or outcast from mainstream society in almost any respect. Of course his special minority does not easily map unto real world minorities because fantasy.

Um, that is not how this works.

Geralt is indeed a white male. Does he also possess characteristics that place him into a very specific minority category? Yes. Does that make him not a white male? Obviously not. That would be silly. Is there a sense in which being a 'white male' doesn't count, doesn't confer relative privilege, if you happen to belong to another minority? Ask any disabled or LGBTQ+ white male. They'll tell you it's possible to have both white privilege, male privilege and, for example, LGBTQ+ lack of privilege at the same time.

More specifically, Geralt is a classic example of the white male geek avatar. He's different. He's different but he's also special. Just like us in high school! Nobody understood how special we were! They all thought we were freaks! Well, people think Geralt's a freak too, but he's badass!

Traditionally video games, fantasy novels, and sci-fi shows have been riddled with such characters. To be fair, there are now a growing number of those who are non-straight, female, or non-white. Nothing wrong with it, as a fantasy. But to suggest that such a character in some sense isn't a white male character or isn't designed to appeal to that particular demographic is just not, as I said, how this works at all.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

And that's ALL I need. Im not forcing anyone else to believe it.

But plenty do as I've already said.

I've said many times there's no way to prove my belief. There's no way to prove or disprove it. Yet here you are still smugly proclaiming something has been proven.

DM,

Then why are you upset that people disagree with your belief when people demonstrate why your "belief" is incorrect?  What purpose is there continuing to insist your belief is the correct one when you refuse to offer some rationale beyond the original rationale that was shown to be flawed?  Your argument is perfectly circular, I'm right because I believe I'm right.

 

[drawkcabi]

A compromise position:

Without given any context, I believe that showing a picture of Sailor Moon to someone who has never seen the cartoon and only making a judgement on the picture, I can't see how most people wouldn't judge her to be white over being Japanese.

Being explained the context of Sailor Moon in the series, I can't see how most people would not judge her to be Japanese, however Japanese in a universe where Japanese people look more white, and that much anime seem to exist in similar universes.

I can see the argument that Sailor Moon and other anime are drawn meant to be more abstract, but an abstractness that is closer to resembling a European white than Japanese.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

20 minutes ago, drawkcabi said:

A compromise position:

Without given any context, I believe that showing a picture of Sailor Moon to someone who has never seen the cartoon and only making a judgement on the picture, I can't see how most people wouldn't judge her to be white over being Japanese.

Being explained the context of Sailor Moon in the series, I can't see how most people would not judge her to be Japanese, however Japanese in a universe where Japanese people look more white, and that much anime seem to exist in similar universes.

I can see the argument that Sailor Moon and other anime are drawn meant to be more abstract, but an abstractness that is closer to resembling a European white than Japanese.

I think it really depends on your bias as to what a japanese person looks like. In fact since these characters are highly stylised and idealised they don't really tend to look like any humans anywhere. If your assumption is that a japanese person has yellow skin and slanty eyes, then that is plainly incorrect, the skin tone of most japanese people is rather pale and not everyone has the stereotypical eye feature.

But we are talking in ideal here. If you look at male models in Japan.. they look like Anime characters:

https://www.dramafever.com/st/news/images/Hours_of_My_Life.png

if you look at female models, they have elements of Anime characters:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MlxpFvIzV_Q/UOptpWRwfwI/AAAAAAAAMlA/CXNKktYfM7M/s1600/Cute-Japanese-Short-Haircut-for-Latest-Fashion.jpg

The facial proportions, large eyes and pale 'white' skin are all part of that ideal. 

Now whether Anime has fed into that or visa versa, and what part western culture is feeding it I don't know. But my point is that peoples perception of what a white person looks like and what a japanese person looks like are quite skewed. Thats why most people in Japan will not see Anime characters as white people.