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Gamergaters Please attempt to claim this isn't objectification


Ser Scot A Ellison

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55 minutes ago, mormont said:

Um, that is not how this works.

Geralt is indeed a white male. Does he also possess characteristics that place him into a very specific minority category? Yes. Does that make him not a white male? Obviously not. That would be silly. Is there a sense in which being a 'white male' doesn't count, doesn't confer relative privilege, if you happen to belong to another minority? Ask any disabled or LGBTQ+ white male. They'll tell you it's possible to have both white privilege, male privilege and, for example, LGBTQ+ lack of privilege at the same time.

More specifically, Geralt is a classic example of the white male geek avatar. He's different. He's different but he's also special. Just like us in high school! Nobody understood how special we were! They all thought we were freaks! Well, people think Geralt's a freak too, but he's badass!

Traditionally video games, fantasy novels, and sci-fi shows have been riddled with such characters. To be fair, there are now a growing number of those who are non-straight, female, or non-white. Nothing wrong with it, as a fantasy. But to suggest that such a character in some sense isn't a white male character or isn't designed to appeal to that particular demographic is just not, as I said, how this works at all.

Have you read any of the Witcher books? White male privilege does not make a lot of sense in that world. "Human" vs. "non-Human privilege" might and there the mutant Geralt falls closer into the non-human "minority" side (he is not thought of as a freak, he literally is a mutant badass freak, unlike most gamer nerds). It makes not much sense in the Witcher world to compare him to a gay or disabled white male in our world (because his role is very different). This might be moot for the way the people designing games think when trying to appeal to their demographic but it is certainly worth pointing out if one cares about the background world of the Witcher.

(But we had similar things alread with Frodo as straight? white middle class male in the Tolkien thread and this is getting too silly quickly (although here this was hardly possible starting with anthropomorphous female warships), so I am out of here as I have nothing else to contribute because I don't know any of the games in question. I wish everyone good luck with the bowdlerization and purification of the "Gaming scene"...)

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8 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

Have you read any of the Witcher books?

Yup. Three, in translation.

8 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

White male privilege does not make a lot of sense in that world.

I'm afraid it does. If you doubt this, imagine Geralt as a woman.

'Human vs nonhuman' is comparable to something like disability only insofar as it's another axis on which a person might have or lack privilege, or be discriminated against. But being a 'mutant freak', as noted, is almost commonplace in popular white male geek heroes. It's a way of letting us identify with a character's problems while at the same time giving them cool abilities. What it does not do, is remove the character's other privilege, eg male privilege. Geralt as a woman would have to deal with everything Geralt deals with plus everything a woman in his world has to deal with.

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DM,

Then why are you upset that people disagree with your belief when people demonstrate why your "belief" is incorrect?  What purpose is their in you continuing to insist your belief is the correct one when you refuse to offer some rationale beyond the original rationale that was shown to be flawed?  Your argument is perfectly circular, I'm right because I believe I'm right.

 

That guy just wanted to fight and I obliged him. he doesn't give a shit about the race of anime characters.  

I repeated numerous times that I had no way to prove my belief and that there was no point in continuing the line of discussion yet he still insisted on pushing it. The purpose of insisting on my belief is to not change it just because some guy on the internet decides he wants to try and railroad me and sling a bunch of insults.

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4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

That guy just wanted to fight and I obliged him. he doesn't give a shit about the race of anime characters.  

I repeated numerous times that I had no way to prove my belief and that there was no point in continuing the line of discussion yet he still insisted on pushing it. The purpose of insisting on my belief is to not change it just because some guy on the internet decides he wants to try and railroad me and sling a bunch of insults.

If by "that guy" you mean me, then you are sadly mistaken.  It is never my intention to "fight" as you put it.  My intention is to draw attention to conclusions based on poor evidentiary foundations.

I was never attempting to "railroad" you.  This would be clear to you if you did not take everything so personally and assume that it is an attack on you.  I was attacking your bad conclusions, not you personally.  If you think otherwise, or cannot see the distinction, that is not my problem.

And I at least had the courtesy to answer your questions.  It is a tactic of all persons who rely on beliefs alone to support their position and I see nothing different in your approach.

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5 minutes ago, Stubby said:

If by "that guy" you mean me, then you are sadly mistaken.  It is never my intention to "fight" as you put it.  My intention is to draw attention to conclusions based on poor evidentiary foundations.

I was never attempting to "railroad" you.  This would be clear to you if you did not take everything so personally and assume that it is an attack on you.  I was attacking your bad conclusions, not you personally.  If you think otherwise, or cannot see the distinction, that is not my problem.

And I at least had the courtesy to answer your questions.  It is a tactic of all persons who rely on beliefs alone to support their position and I see nothing different in your approach.

That's great, are you done now? Or do you still want to continue not arguing?

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1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

That's great, are you done now? Or do you still want to continue not arguing?

Yeah see now you are just making a passive aggressive complaint about me, after I have taken the time to explain myself and highlight your mistakes - again. You know, you could just answer my questions from upthread.  I mean, that would be the mature thing to do.  Do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion or are you just going to keep ignoring evidence that contradicts you?  Better yet, present some evidence of your own - to support any of the accusations you have levelled at me, such as:

1. Only wanted to start a fight.

2. Tried to railroad you.

3. Slung a bunch of insults.

Surely you can actually back those comments up, or are they just your beliefs as well?

 

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Any random character in a video game that appears to be white actually is white. Including those made by Japanese. Therefore you can wallow I'm white privilege while playin the game.

Any random anime character that looks white actually is not white but Japanese unless specifically srated otherwise. 

Got it. Whatever you say.

What else do you want? Do you just want me to let you have the last word and not respond at all? Is that what you want? Just to let you say something about me and not respond to it? Is that what you want?

 

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3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Any random character in a video game that appears to be white actually is white. Including those made by Japanese. Therefore you can wallow I'm white privilege while playin the game.

Any random anime character that looks white actually is not white but Japanese unless specifically srated otherwise. 

Got it. Whatever you say.

What else do you want? Do you just want me to let you have the last word and not respond at all? Is that what you want? Just to let you say something about me and not respond to it? Is that what you want?

 

Looks white is the operative word. Looks white to you. 

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7 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Any random character in a video game that appears to be white actually is white. Including those made by Japanese. Therefore you can wallow I'm white privilege while playin the game.

Any random anime character that looks white actually is not white but Japanese unless specifically srated otherwise. 

Got it. Whatever you say.

What else do you want? Do you just want me to let you have the last word and not respond at all? Is that what you want? Just to let you say something about me and not respond to it? Is that what you want?

 

I want you to prove that you are actually reading a post and thinking about your position.

Because in the post you were responding to I asked you to provide evidence to support your accusations about my conduct. But you have ignored that question. Again.

So, please provide evidence of your accusations about my conduct or retract those allegations.

The point is not "whatever I say" - that is your argument.

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15 minutes ago, Stubby said:

I want you to prove that you are actually reading a post and thinking about your position.

Because in the post you were responding to I asked you to provide evidence to support your accusations about my conduct. But you have ignored that question. Again.

So, please provide evidence of your accusations about my conduct or retract those allegations.

The point is not "whatever I say" - that is your argument.

The original discussion about the race of anime ended. 

I said that no one can really prove or disprove the claim so we might as well drop it. Then something magical happened, everyone dropped it. For almost a full day that is, until you jump back in with some sort of crusade on how I'm proven wrong.

And that it's a ridiculous claim to think that anime people are white when there are plenty of all races who think they look white, and in c4's link theres a quote from an actual Japanese animator who pretty much blatantly said "Yeh it's called business, I made my characters look more white because I wanted my stuff to sell"

you compare me to flat earthers and holocaust deniers.

You then proceeded to say that I always just rely on my own beliefs regardress of any proof or evidence. Not that I sometimes do it but that I always do it.

You then proceeded to proclaim that I've never posted anything sensible or meaningful. Not that I usually don't or rarely do, but that I have never done either.

The conversation has continued in pretty much this same manner throughout.

So if you are not insisting on picking a fight I don't know what you are doing.

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26 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

The original discussion about the race of anime ended. 

I said that no one can really prove or disprove the claim so we might as well drop it. Then something magical happened, everyone dropped it. For almost a full day that is, until you jump back in with some sort of crusade on how I'm proven wrong. (1)

And that it's a ridiculous claim to think that anime people are white when there are plenty of all races who think they look white, (2) and in c4's link theres a quote from an actual Japanese animator who pretty much blatantly said "Yeh it's called business, I made my characters look more white because I wanted my stuff to sell"

you compare me to flat earthers and holocaust deniers (3)

You then proceeded to say that I always just rely on my own beliefs regardress of any proof or evidence. Not that I sometimes do it but that I always do it (4).

You then proceeded to proclaim that I've never posted anything sensible or meaningful. Not that I usually don't or rarely do, but that I have never done either. (5)

The conversation has continued in pretty much this same manner throughout.

So if you are not insisting on picking a fight I don't know what you are doing (6).

1. Wow I read the thread a day later than everyone else and then make a comment indicating my support for another poster's well reasoned argument and all of a sudden I am picking a fight with you? :bang:

2. If all the viewer is doing is focusing on the physical traits of the character (as I have said all along) then it is a ridiculous position.  Because that conclusion does not take into account all the aspects of the character (which is the argument I was supporting in my first reply).  And relying on the physical aspects of the character is reducing the character to an object.  Which literally means "objectifying" the character.  You have not actually addressed this position in this thread.  I don't know why you refuse to do so.

3. I explained that your logic was the same as flat earthers and holocaust deniers. I did not say you were a holocaust denier or flat earther.  This is not difficult mate - it's called using an example to illustrate a failed use of logic.  If you think that is a personal insult you are mistaken. 

4. Yes I did.  And you are continuing to prove that observation correct, because you don't back up your claims.  You are content to rely on what you "believe" - whether that belief is based on factually correct input or not. For reasons I explained above, I don't accept this as a good reason to base conclusions on anything - whether it's animated characters' appearances, objectifying women, starting a nuclear war or whatever.  I have tried to lead you to understand this critique before, but you refused to apply it then and have repeated that position here.

5. Yes and I maintain that.  I've shown why - repeatedly.  That you ignore my views on your discussion style highlights this. See response 1 above.

6. I have explained what I am doing.  I flat out told you only a couple of posts ago.  I flat out told you I am not picking a fight. But you have ignored my explanation and instead appear to be content to rely on your belief of what has transpired - see 4 and 5 above.

Readers will see who has proven their points, who has evaded answering questions, who has reacted poorly to criticisms and who has put their position on clear evidence.  I am content to leave it to the judgement of readers.

 

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I actually should have addressed this:

Quote

in c4's link theres a quote from an actual Japanese animator who pretty much blatantly said "Yeh it's called business, I made my characters look more white because I wanted my stuff to sell"

So the animator admitted he was objectifying the characters. I agree with that.

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18 minutes ago, Stubby said:

1. Wow I read the thread a day later than everyone else and then make a comment indicating my support for another poster's well reasoned argument and all of a sudden I am picking a fight with you? :bang:

And yet after that full day I repeated my sentiment TWICE that neither of us can prove anything so theres no point in continuing unless you just wanted to have an internet fight. And here you still are continuing.

Quote

2. If all the viewer is doing is focusing on the physical traits of the character (as I have said all along) then it is a ridiculous position.  Because that conclusion does not take into account all the aspects of the character (which is the argument I was supporting in my first reply).  And relying on the physical aspects of the character is reducing the character to an object.  Which literally means "objectifying" the character.  You have not actually addressed this position in this thread.  I don't know why you refuse to do so.

I see nothing sinister about objectifying a fictional anime character. 

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3. I explained that your logic was the same as flat earthers and holocaust deniers. I did not say you were a holocaust denier or flat earther.  This is not difficult mate - it's called using an example to illustrate a failed use of logic.  If you think that is a personal insult you are mistaken. 

Like I said, you compared me to holocaust deniers and flat earthers.

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4. Yes I did.  And you are continuing to prove that observation correct, because you don't back up your claims.  You are content to rely on what you "believe" - whether that belief is based on factually correct input or not. For reasons I explained above, I don't accept this as a good reason to base conclusions on anything - whether it's animated characters' appearances, objectifying women, starting a nuclear war or whatever.  I have tried to lead you to understand this critique before, but you refused to apply it then and have repeated that position here.

Like I said, you accuse me of always relying on nothing but my own beliefs. 

 you claim to know that I always do this, yet here you are continuing a discussion with me. And I have provided back up for my beliefs. You are just pretending I didnt. I haven't provided proof because as I've said many many many times there is no way for me to prove it, so there's not much point in continuing.

Yet here you are still continuing even though you are so sure that I just base EVERY opinion I have on nothing but my own beliefs.

 

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5. Yes and I maintain that.  I've shown why - repeatedly.  That you ignore my views on your discussion style highlights this. See response 1 above.

Like I said, you proclaim that I have not even once ever posted anything sensible or meaningful. Yet here you still are continuing this thing that you claim isn't just picking an argument. Even though you are so certain that I'm not going to post anything meaningful or sensible. You still insist on continuing.

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6. I have explained what I am doing.  I flat out told you only a couple of posts ago.  I flat out told you I am not picking a fight. But you have ignored my explanation and instead appear to be content to rely on your belief of what has transpired - see 4 and 5 above.

 

Quote

Readers will see who has proven their points, who has evaded answering questions, who has reacted poorly to criticisms and who has put their position on clear evidence.  I am content to leave it to the judgement of readers.

 

Perhaps the readers can fill me in on what you are doing if they figure it out.

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1 hour ago, DunderMifflin said:

And yet after that full day I repeated my sentiment TWICE that neither of us can prove anything so theres no point in continuing unless you just wanted to have an internet fight. And here you still are continuing.

I see nothing sinister about objectifying a fictional anime character. 

Like I said, you compared me to holocaust deniers and flat earthers.

Like I said, you accuse me of always relying on nothing but my own beliefs. 

 you claim to know that I always do this, yet here you are continuing a discussion with me. And I have provided back up for my beliefs. You are just pretending I didnt. I haven't provided proof because as I've said many many many times there is no way for me to prove it, so there's not much point in continuing.

Yet here you are still continuing even though you are so sure that I just base EVERY opinion I have on nothing but my own beliefs.

 

Like I said, you proclaim that I have not even once ever posted anything sensible or meaningful. Yet here you still are continuing this thing that you claim isn't just picking an argument. Even though you are so certain that I'm not going to post anything meaningful or sensible. You still insist on continuing.

 

Perhaps the readers can fill me in on what you are doing if they figure it out.

All that and nothing to indicate actual thought.  Like I said - meaningless and insubstantial stuff.  Because every comment you made here relied only on your beliefs of the state of things.

As for the bold above, if you genuinely believe that you cannot prove your point then you should do the honourable thing and admit that you made a rash statement and could;t prove it and accept the criticism gracefully.  Instead, you try and make it all about you being insulted  I am sure that you base every opinion on your own beliefs because you have not shown me otherwise.

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3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Really? Was it neccesary for you to publicly express this?

Sorry, was it necessary for the user that rhymes with Pita Socrackian to express this?

I thought it was a reader expressing an opinion on the discussion.

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7 minutes ago, Stubby said:

I thought it was a reader expressing an opinion on the discussion.

I thought it was someone who already doesn't like me using an oppurtunity to throw a jab. 

And that opinion aligns with me more than it does you. Ive said for over a day you shouldn't bother anymore with the anime race discussion that can't be proven either way. Seems the user that rhymes with Speedo Follafian shares that opinion.

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9 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Really? Was it neccesary for you to publicly express this?

Sorry, was it necessary for the user that rhymes with Pita Socrackian to express this?

express what ?? i thought scot DID say that they could marry the ships?? i might have been wrong though 

6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So its 100% accurate?!

accurate in negatively portraying anti-gamer gate people as easily offended harpies? yes, that is what i just said, yes xx

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