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Why are the Targs...


KarlDanski

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the only Valyrian house or Valyrian dynasty that has words, sigils, and motifs based around dragons? Surely the Valyrian "Dragonlords" would have more dragon-mania than the lower nobility Targaryen house. Valyrians tend to share the violet eyes, white hair, and stuff besides the Baratheons, but still. 

House Targaryen had a black, and red sinister sigil with a three headed dragon, with the words, "Fire and Blood". Very "draconian', and what you would expect from Dragonlords. House Velaryon oddly has a seahorse sigil in blue, and white with the words, "The Old, the True, the Brave". House Celtigar has also oddly enough crabs, and their words are unknown. Finally, the only other house started by Valyrians are House Baratheon which have the Durrandon look, sigil, and words so that isn't as big of a deal as the others. Still, why does the lower nobility of Valyria, namely Targaryen, have dragonistic words, and sigils while other lower houses take after their environment of Dragonsttone. I would expect a house of higher nobility to have dragonish words, and a dragon sigil instead. Just wondering, don't know if this has an answer. Do not take this as another Targ bash post like the one were I asked what would the 7 Kingdoms be if Aegon didn't invade which someone thought that I was bashing them.

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From what I remember, it was a way for them to try and integrate into Westeros. Someone made a sigil for them. I will have to double check the entire scenario, but it is told in the World book.

*Updated three posts down*

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Makes sense, but I assumed they had the sigil since Valyria, never thought they might of made it when they moved to Dragonstone, and then Westeros...why didn't Celtigar or Velaryon have dragons though? If Targaryen can come to Dragonstone with four dragons, for three of them to die, and to birth two more, why didn't Celtigar or Velaryon have any? Targaryen was around the same social stature as them so I would assume they would have the same amount of dragons originally.

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Ok, I may have been mis-remembering what I just posted. This is what I found.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

This he showed for the first time at the Aegonfort, the crude wood-and-earth castle he had raised atop what was henceforth and forever known as Aegon's High Hill. Having taken a dozen castles and secured the mouth of the Blackwater Rush on both sides of the river, he commanded the lords he had defeated to attend him. There they laid their swords at his feet, and Aegon raised them up and confirmed them in their lands and titles. To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be "my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand." Thus Baratheon is reckoned by the maesters the first King's Hand.
Heraldic banners had long been a tradition amongst the lords of Westeros, but such had never been used by the dragonlords of old Valyria. When Aegon's knights unfurled his great silken battle standard, with a red threeheaded dragon breathing fire upon a black field, the lords took it for a sign that he was now truly one of them, a worthy high king for Westeros. When Queen Visenya placed a Valyrian steel circlet, studded with rubies, on her brother's head and Queen Rhaenys hailed him as, "Aegon, First of His Name, King of All Westeros, and Shield of His People," the dragons roared and the lords and knights sent up a cheer...but the smallfolk, the fisherman and field hands and goodwives, shouted loudest of all.
 
-This next part does not talk about the sigil, but it shows a little more what other people were supposedly doing for Aegon. I say supposedly because the world book is only semi-canon and admitted to be skewed.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

Manfred Hightower, Lord of Oldtown, was a cautious lord, and godly. One of his younger sons served with the Warrior's Sons, and another had only recently taken vows as a septon. When the High Septon told him of the vision vouchsafed him by the Crone, Lord Hightower determined that he would not oppose the Conqueror by force of arms. Thus it was that no men from Oldtown burned on the Field of Fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden. And thus it was that Lord Manfred rode forth to greet Aegon the Dragon as he approached, and to offer up his sword, his city, and his oath. (Some say that Lord Hightower also offered up the hand of his youngest daughter, which Aegon declined politely, lest it offend his two queens).
Three days later, in the Starry Sept, His High Holiness himself anointed Aegon with the seven oils, placed a crown upon his head, and proclaimed him Aegon of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm. ("Seven Kingdoms" was the style used, though Dorne had not submitted. Nor would it, for more than a century to come).
Only a handful of lords had been present for Aegon's first coronation at the mouth of the Blackwater, but hundreds were on hand to witness his second, and tens of thousands cheered him afterward in the streets of Oldtown as he rode through the city on Balerion's back. Amongst those at Aegon's second coronation were the maesters and archmaesters of the Citadel. Perhaps for that reason, it was this coronation, rather than the Aegonfort crowning or the day of Aegon's Landing, that became fixed as the start of Aegon's reign.
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4 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

Makes sense, but I assumed they had the sigil since Valyria, never thought they might of made it when they moved to Dragonstone, and then Westeros...why didn't Celtigar or Velaryon have dragons though? If Targaryen can come to Dragonstone with four dragons, for three of them to die, and to birth two more, why didn't Celtigar or Velaryon have any? Targaryen was around the same social stature as them so I would assume they would have the same amount of dragons originally.

They weren't the same stature.  The Targs were among the 40 families who had dragons in old Valyria and were considered a middle house of those 40.  Valyron and Celtigar never had dragons so were no where near as powerful as Targaryen.

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25 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

the only Valyrian house or Valyrian dynasty that has words, sigils, and motifs based around dragons? Surely the Valyrian "Dragonlords" would have more dragon-mania than the lower nobility Targaryen house. Valyrians tend to share the violet eyes, white hair, and stuff besides the Baratheons, but still. 

House Targaryen had a black, and red sinister sigil with a three headed dragon, with the words, "Fire and Blood". Very "draconian', and what you would expect from Dragonlords. House Velaryon oddly has a seahorse sigil in blue, and white with the words, "The Old, the True, the Brave". House Celtigar has also oddly enough crabs, and their words are unknown. Finally, the only other house started by Valyrians are House Baratheon which have the Durrandon look, sigil, and words so that isn't as big of a deal as the others. Still, why does the lower nobility of Valyria, namely Targaryen, have dragonistic words, and sigils while other lower houses take after their environment of Dragonsttone. I would expect a house of higher nobility to have dragonish words, and a dragon sigil instead. Just wondering, don't know if this has an answer. Do not take this as another Targ bash post like the one were I asked what would the 7 Kingdoms be if Aegon didn't invade which someone thought that I was bashing them.

The Freehold was ruled by forty noble families.  One of those forty are the Targaryens.  While they were far from the most powerful, they were certainly not at the bottom.  They would be the equivalent of a Great Family of Westeros.  Even a minor Valyrian noble family is still greater than the top-ranking Westerosi noble family.  Most certainly greater than the Starks and the Arryns.  The top-ranking Westerosi family are the Lannisters and they are not even close to the level of the Targaryens.  The Velaryons and the Celtigars were sworn to the Targaryens. 

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Thank you Leech for the quote, it helps understand it a lot better than the chivalric banner type thing was more Westerosi than Valyrians, and that the Valyrians never had family sigils etc.

Aryagonakill#2, thanks for putting that in, I assumed Velaryon, Targaryen, and Celtigar were the same stature politically in Valyria, and I didn't know that they were actually lower than most.

Question 3 though...why don't the Velaryons have any Valyrian Steel swords? Targaryen had two swords named, Dark Sister and Blackfyre, and that Celtigar is suppose to have a Valyrian Steel Axe, but the Velaryons seem to have had no Valyrians weapon.

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It's possible they do and we simply have not been told about it.  It's also possible they lost it when their lands were sacked during the Dance of Dragons.

But, the Valyrons not have a blade is no more strange than the Targs having no knowledge of how to make them or Valyrian stone.  The world is not built perfectly, fact is the Valyrons should have had one or at least had one at one time.

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I've always just kind of thought that the Celtigars and Velaryons were cadet branches or maybe even bastard houses from some dragonlord family and they were simply given enough wealth and maybe even position at Driftmark and Claw Isle to trade and/or keep track of what was happening in Westeros by the Freehold.

They might've even have been one of the minor Valyrian families who were in the service of house Targaryen and left Valyria with them.

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1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

They might've even have been one of the minor Valyrian families who were in the service of house Targaryen and left Valyria with them.

Yes, that's what they were. Targaryens were dragonlords, and Velaryons and Celtigars were minor houses under the Targaryens.

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4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It's possible they do and we simply have not been told about it.  It's also possible they lost it when their lands were sacked during the Dance of Dragons.

But, the Valyrons not have a blade is no more strange than the Targs having no knowledge of how to make them or Valyrian stone.  The world is not built perfectly, fact is the Valyrons should have had one or at least had one at one time.

I have always wondered about that. Considering how wealthy the House was under Corlys Velaryon you would have thought they would have bought one from somewhere. Or odd they didn't have one from before the fall, even Celtigar has the axe.

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1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have always wondered about that. Considering how wealthy the House was under Corlys Velaryon you would have thought they would have bought one from somewhere. Or odd they didn't have one from before the fall, even Celtigar has the axe.

It don't find it odd that the Velaryons didn't manage to buy one. Tywin couldn't buy one with all the wealth of Casterly Rock so it makes sense that other wealthy families have had about as much success.

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2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

It don't find it odd that the Velaryons didn't manage to buy one. Tywin couldn't buy one with all the wealth of Casterly Rock so it makes sense that other wealthy families have had about as much success.

True but I doubt Tywin tried to get one beyond Westeros. Corlys traveled most of the known world in his times. You'll probably have a easier time find a Valryian Steel sword in Essos.

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2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but I doubt Tywin tried to get one beyond Westeros. Corlys traveled most of the known world in his times. You'll probably have a easier time find a Valryian Steel sword in Essos.

Well, yes, I would suppose that's true. Somewhere some impoverished person should have been willing to part with a Valyrian steel weapon in exchange for a ton of cash.

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15 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

the only Valyrian house or Valyrian dynasty that has words, sigils, and motifs based around dragons? Surely the Valyrian "Dragonlords" would have more dragon-mania than the lower nobility Targaryen house. Valyrians tend to share the violet eyes, white hair, and stuff besides the Baratheons, but still. 

House Targaryen had a black, and red sinister sigil with a three headed dragon, with the words, "Fire and Blood". Very "draconian', and what you would expect from Dragonlords. House Velaryon oddly has a seahorse sigil in blue, and white with the words, "The Old, the True, the Brave". House Celtigar has also oddly enough crabs, and their words are unknown. Finally, the only other house started by Valyrians are House Baratheon which have the Durrandon look, sigil, and words so that isn't as big of a deal as the others. Still, why does the lower nobility of Valyria, namely Targaryen, (...)

I cannot fathom, what would give you the idea of the Targaryens as "the lower nobility". :dunno:

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13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Yes, that's what they were. Targaryens were dragonlords, and Velaryons and Celtigars were minor houses under the Targaryens.

Well, we don't have it confirmed that they left Valyria together with the Targaryens or if they left earlier than them.

Most people tend to believe that they both left years before the Targaryens did and only entered their service after they came to Dragonstone to make alliances (which kind of makes sense, since neither of them had dragons and servicing a family that did would be a huge advantage to them).

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Yeah sorry I was answering the first part but not necessarily the bit where they left Valyria together. I remember reading that they were already on Driftmark before the Targaryens came, but they may still have been in service to whichever Valyrians were on Dragonstone.

And who were those Valyrians? SOMEBODY built that freaky dragon castle with its magic stonework. It wasn't the Targaryens, because they've only been there 400-ish years. Do we know anything about the pre-Targs who were manning the Valyrian outpost?

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2 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

House Targaryen was one of the forty ancient noble houses known as dragonlords who ruled the Valyrian Freehold, a great empire spanning much of Essos. They were considered to be one of the minor houses, however. 

Oh, you're quoting the Wiki. Which, as it seems, took some liberties with the text.

In the actual book, "The Targaryens were far from the most powerful of the dragonlords". In the Wiki, "They were considered to be one of the minor [dragonlord] houses", and you reduce them again to "lower nobility".

A few more steps, and someone will soon claim that the Targs were a client house to a family of serfs. Quoting this forum as source.

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