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Why do Robb, Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon...


KarlDanski

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take more after their mother than father in looks? I understand genetics aren't as clear cut as it is with Baratheon/Durrandon where every true born one is black of hair, and blue of eye, but still. While grey eyes like the Starks have is less dominant than the Tully Blue, why is the Tully Red Auburn hair more dominant than the traditionally dominant Stark Black? Out of the five trueborn Stark children, only one has the Stark features while everyone else is basically a Tully, not meaning to sound like I'm bashing the Tully's who are my 2nd favorite Riverlands house. Robb Stark looks more Tully than Stark along with Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon while Arya who is compared to Jon in looks is the only one with dominant Stark features, like the grey eyes and black hair. The only other major Stark that married outside of the North was Cregan Stark to Aly Blackwood so maybe Andal genes are more dominant than First Men, but still. Just wondering if anyone had any clues to why this would be.

 

PS: This is more tin foily, but you get from Ned Stark's personality that he isn't a dominant person compared to his brother Brandon. Would this of transferred over to if Brandon had married Catelyn? Would the Stark children of then had the traditional stark look? 

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15 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

PS: This is more tin foily, but you get from Ned Stark's personality that he isn't a dominant person compared to his brother Brandon. Would this of transferred over to if Brandon had married Catelyn? Would the Stark children of then had the traditional stark look? 

That's not really how genes work. Catelyn just seems to have had the more dominant genes between the two. Genes in this series are, um.. weird, and not always consistent. We also don't know much about Ned's mother and her side of things. She was apparently descendant from the Royces, who (at least Miranda Royce) have light brown hair. So even Ned has some Andal blood in him which may or may not have contributed to it. It's kind of a random crap shoot. 

It is interesting to note that all of the Stark kids with the Tully looks have more southern ambitions and personalities, though. As opposed to Arya and Jon, who are more "northerner" and subdued. Well, as "subdued" as Arya can get.  

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This is real life, but it'll give you the idea as to why their appearances vary. It's not to be applied cleanly to GRRMs world, but it goes into how people carry genes that you can't see and why it looks like appearances can result in all kinds of combinations.

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask59

 

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I know genes don't work exactly like that, but for example, we'll use eye color. Brown is one of the most dominant eye colors followed by blue, and then green etc. So the Tully blue should be dominant over the Stark grey like it is with the four I mentioned above, but obviously that can change. However, black hair is one of the more common hair types while auburn red/brown is rarer, but is seen more in the Tully children.

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5 minutes ago, KarlDanski said:

Ned's mother was Lyarra Stark of House Stark, the daughter of Rodrik Stark, and Arya Flint. So basically Rickard Stark married his cousin Lyarra Stark similar to how Tywin Lannister married his cousin Joanna Lannister. 

Almost, but not quite. Richard and Lyarra were cousins once removed. That adds like two more bloodlines to each person.

when I get back to my computer I can share an interesting thread with you from last year that talks about Robb's name. Basically in the case of the Starklings it is all symbolism and fantasy. The first born Targs have their "system" as well.  

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2 hours ago, KarlDanski said:

take more after their mother than father in looks? I understand genetics aren't as clear cut as it is with Baratheon/Durrandon where every true born one is black of hair, and blue of eye, but still. While grey eyes like the Starks have is less dominant than the Tully Blue, why is the Tully Red Auburn hair more dominant than the traditionally dominant Stark Black? Out of the five trueborn Stark children, only one has the Stark features while everyone else is basically a Tully, not meaning to sound like I'm bashing the Tully's who are my 2nd favorite Riverlands house. Robb Stark looks more Tully than Stark along with Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon while Arya who is compared to Jon in looks is the only one with dominant Stark features, like the grey eyes and black hair. The only other major Stark that married outside of the North was Cregan Stark to Aly Blackwood so maybe Andal genes are more dominant than First Men, but still. Just wondering if anyone had any clues to why this would be.

 

PS: This is more tin foily, but you get from Ned Stark's personality that he isn't a dominant person compared to his brother Brandon. Would this of transferred over to if Brandon had married Catelyn? Would the Stark children of then had the traditional stark look? 

The Stark hair color is brown not black FYI. 

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The dichotomy of looks is for dramatic purposes. Arya is meant to feel like an outsider, because she's a tomboy. Having a different look from her siblings increases this feeling of alienation. Ditto Jon, who's supposed to be Ned's bastard. That Jon and Arya look similar helps to provide more of a foundation for their close friendship. Plus, it's a key to Jon's actual (as far as we've guessed) parentage.

You probably know all this, and just wanted the detailed genetics. Good luck with that; genetics is a lot more complicated than Gregor Mendel postulated, particularly among mammals (and, in fact, he totally lucked out by selecting varieties of peas that DID display "nice" genetics.)

"Convenient" genetics occurs more than once in ASOIAF. Witness Hodor - some 3-4 generations removed from Ser Duncan the Tall, he's nonetheless the first of Dunk & Nan's descendents that is actually tall himself. Ditto Brienne of Tarth, maybe 3-4 generations removed from whoever Ser Duncan had his little tryst with on the island of Tarth, and yet the very first to show exceptional height. Why do I say these two are the first? Well, if Hodor had had a really tall father - or mother - it would have been noted how he took after good old Pa or Ma, and that they came from some tall stock. Same with Brienne. No mention of Tall Selwyn Tarth, or a particularly big mother. Her now-deceased siblings are never described as having been big. Brienne is just put out there in isolation, an unprecedentedly huge woman.

We know even less about the Cleganes - and may never know more. I'd say, don't sweat it, but sweating it to the last drop and then some is what this discussion group is for.

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Most grey eyes appear to have some blue light scattering, so I'm not sure if Jon's eyes are a pure dark grey or slate blue, a dark bluish-grey color.   Who can tell how magical genes work when someone can have purple eyes.

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Not sure if this has been mentioned...sorry, but Catelyn descends from the Whents on her mother's side, and they are historically known for being either barren or constantly having miscarriages (like Lysa).  Her mother had a few missed herself, and died after birthing I think.  Whereas Catelyn has five hale and healthy babes, no misses as far as we know.  I put it down to strong Stark genes and perhaps a magical property to their blood.  She has the babies, but the only one left to be strong for the northerners is Arya - Sansa is just like her mother....reliant on someone else.  Rickon has a shaggydog story most like, and Bran is off.....you know, branning about with the Great Other crow (jon and bran face off anyone? lol).  Arya and Jon are so alike, northern, not Tully.  Most likely magic played a part in this world...their fate was already destined type thing....

or not. lol.

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4 hours ago, zandru said:

The dichotomy of looks is for dramatic purposes. Arya is meant to feel like an outsider, because she's a tomboy. Having a different look from her siblings increases this feeling of alienation. Ditto Jon, who's supposed to be Ned's bastard. That Jon and Arya look similar helps to provide more of a foundation for their close friendship. Plus, it's a key to Jon's actual (as far as we've guessed) parentage.

All true. But also GRRM's subverted fairytales seems to be another factor to consider for Arya. The Ugly Duckling is an obvious one. The only Stark child among Ned's children. Arya is perceived to be the outcast (Swan), and doesn't measure up to the more Southern looking (ducks) Tully siblings. The bird/swan imagery and the other Ugly Duckling story markers in her chapters seem deliberate on George's part. Which is interesting to consider... what impact that has on her overall story?

George seems to emphasis Arya's similarity in appearance to Lyanna. George could have made the link between Jon and his mother another way without drawing several parallels with Arya.

http://i.imgur.com/L4UN6R1h.jpg

*Arya at Kings Landing looking at the dragon skull of Blarion the Black Dread, Aegon the Conqueror’s dragon. And Lyanna Stark at the tourney at Harrenhal.

 

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I kind of assumed that the reason to the Stark kids having more of a Tully look was to emphatize their greater activity in the south of the Neck but also to be a foil to Cersei's kids. If Eddard's children takes the coloring from his wife, then odds are that Robert's children doing the same from Cersei it don't stand out much, and while Eddard's Tully-looking kids were his and balanced, or so I think, their paternal and maternal relations, Cersei's kids are pretty much Lannisters to the core of their souls.

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21 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Bran looks Stark enough that he initially confuses Benjen for himself in ADWD.

Which is weird, since he pays special attention to his hair (notices the lenght), and it should really tip him off, since it's completely different color.

4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I kind of assumed that the reason to the Stark kids having more of a Tully look was to emphatize their greater activity in the south of the Neck but also to be a foil to Cersei's kids. If Eddard's children takes the coloring from his wife, then odds are that Robert's children doing the same from Cersei it don't stand out much, and while Eddard's Tully-looking kids were his and balanced, or so I think, their paternal and maternal relations, Cersei's kids are pretty much Lannisters to the core of their souls.

Well, from genetical point of view, Cersei found the best partner to commit that fraud with, since all of the Lannister traits in her children could've been just taken from her.

Also, Ned doesn't really highlight's the 'lack of Baratheon traits', he mostly goes with hair colors and statistics. Which is a bit funny, considering he's the father of five, four of them have more Tully look (Arya is explicitely said to stand out, not only with the colors). Had Arya not been the middle child, Cat would also, like Cersei, have the record of bearing three children resembling her family in a row.

So, to me, Ned and Jon Arryn (if he hadn't witnessed Jaime and Cersei's affair) are an example of 'right for the wrong reasons'. Westeros doesn't have genetical tests, there was no real proof until Cersei admitted to it - it was just a plausible accusation, since many people knew the queen hated the king, and it could be politically beneficial if you wanted to weaken the Lannisters (remember, Renly didn't even really believe it, but went with the rumor anyway for his own merit).

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5 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

but also to be a foil to Cersei's kids. If Eddard's children takes the coloring from his wife, then odds are that Robert's children doing the same from Cersei

This is a good point. Ned - and nearly everybody else - just naturally assumed that it's perfectly natural for children look like one of their parents. It took a close examination of the Baratheon geneology to determine that, whoever a Baratheon married, the black hair and blue eyes took prominence (a dominent characteristic), even with blonde spouses. And the further data of Robert's own innumerable bastards also bore that out.

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On 4/26/2017 at 5:58 PM, KarlDanski said:

take more after their mother than father in looks? I understand genetics aren't as clear cut as it is with Baratheon/Durrandon where every true born one is black of hair, and blue of eye, but still. While grey eyes like the Starks have is less dominant than the Tully Blue, why is the Tully Red Auburn hair more dominant than the traditionally dominant Stark Black? Out of the five trueborn Stark children, only one has the Stark features while everyone else is basically a Tully, not meaning to sound like I'm bashing the Tully's who are my 2nd favorite Riverlands house. Robb Stark looks more Tully than Stark along with Sansa, Brandon, and Rickon while Arya who is compared to Jon in looks is the only one with dominant Stark features, like the grey eyes and black hair. The only other major Stark that married outside of the North was Cregan Stark to Aly Blackwood so maybe Andal genes are more dominant than First Men, but still. Just wondering if anyone had any clues to why this would be.

 

PS: This is more tin foily, but you get from Ned Stark's personality that he isn't a dominant person compared to his brother Brandon. Would this of transferred over to if Brandon had married Catelyn? Would the Stark children of then had the traditional stark look? 

Why do my sister, myself, and my younger brother nearly completely resemble my mom's family and not my dad's?

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