Ned´s Message from the Black Cells

[Armand Gargalen]

Disclaimer: My copy of A Game of Thrones is stored in a box inside a garage and I can not reproduce exact quotes. I am following westeros.org chapters synopsis http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_58 and my own memory as reference. Please feel free to contribute with the quotes to support or debunk my ideas.

 

I believe there is a subtle and often ignored clue about Jon´s parentage in AGOT chapter 58. As we know, Ned promised Jon to tell him who his mother was the next time the would meet the last time they saw each other, when Ned was traveling to KL and Jon to The Wall.

Then, in chapter 58, when Ned is in the black cells, he at first thinks that he is going to die. He starts thinking of Robert, and that brings him to the Harrenhal Tourney, and finally, to Rhaergar and Lyanna, and the promises he made to his sister.

Later on in the same chapter, Ned is visited by Varys, and among other things, Ned asks him if he could deliver a message. Varys says he could, but when questioned, he admits he would read it. The subject is suddenly dropped, as if Ned is giving up on this message because of Varys unreliability.

The exchange ends with Varys trying to convince Ned to accept Cersei´s offer and take the black, and the issue of the message is not raised again the books.

I have a little theory about the content and the recipient of this message that wanted to discuss.

Many people assume R+L=J and that the promises Ned made to her sister included taking care of Jon and keeping him safe in secret. But throughout AGOT Ned keeps thinking of "broken promises", which have led many people to conclude that R+L=J can not be true. But what if the promises (note the plural) also included something along the lines of: "and tell him who he really is". Ned, being a careful person, has been waiting for years to fulfill this promise, afraid that if he tells Jon he might do something wrong, or the beans may spill out somehow. Now, the situation is changed, Jon is a sworn member of the NW, who, as clearly stated by Maester Aemon, have no family ties or claims. Ned thinks that he is about to die, and is tormented by the unfulfilled promise. That is why he wants to send that message. When you think about it, what other information may the message contain that Ned would mind Varys reading?

At the end of the chapter, though, Ned is clearly considering accepting the offer, what we know he finally did, and so is not concerned about that message any more. Now he has the chance to fulfill the promise and tell Jon safely in person. Sadly, it did not go that way, and is the last chance we had to learn Jon´s parentage from Ned.

Any ideas about this? 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

The message could be anything really.

It could be to Stannis saying he is the true king

It could be to Robb and Catelyn reminding them to man Moat Callin and NOT let Theon go.

Help me I'm in a dungeon and Varys want stop bothering me for certain samples.

[Armand Gargalen]

In the same chapter Ned assumes Stannis and Renly already know about Joeffrey´s parentage and they are gathering their banners, so that one is unlikely.

A letter to Robb or Cat is definitely a valid option but I do not think Moat Cailin and Theon being important assets to the Starks is something Ned would mind Varys knowing (he already knows for sure).

The samples one would not confirm, but make more possible the B+A=J theory

[weirwoodface]

I think that for Ned to put such information in the hands of a third party, Varys or otherwise, would automatically mean Jon's life would be forfeit. This would be true regardless of Ned's situation.

[Prof. Cecily]

3 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

As we know, Ned promised Jon to tell him who his mother was the next time the would meet the last time they saw each other, when Ned was traveling to KL and Jon to The Wall.

Is this scene only in the HBO production, or in the ASOIAF as well?

For quoting from the books, I find this page invaluable! 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

[IceFire125]

He thought about Jon with deep sorrow and felt ashamed like Ned really wanted Jon to know.  The promise he made to his sister, was not just to keep him safe, but to tell him who he is... the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

In Jon's chapter when he learned that the King is dead and thought if his Father (Ned) would stay as Hand of the King to Joffrey or go home; we learned of his wish for Ned to finally go to him and reveal to him who his Mother was, that he is of age to understand and wanted to know.

In Jon's chapter where he commanded Gilly to spirit away Mance's son and leave her son at the wall, he promised her that when her boy is of age, if he wanted to know, Jon will reveal to him his true parentage.

[Armand Gargalen]

2 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

I think that for Ned to put such information in the hands of a third party, Varys or otherwise, would automatically mean Jon's life would be forfeit. This would be true regardless of Ned's situation.

I think that you are absolutely right. And that is why, IMHO, Ned dropped the subject as soon as Varys openly admitted he would read it. He surely remembered his recent experiences with LF that put him on this dungeon. I still believe, though, considering that the broken promises are the last part of Ned feverish musings, and that he first thing he asked from Varys is to send this message, that they may be related.

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Is this scene only in the HBO production, or in the ASOIAF as well?

For quoting from the books, I find this page invaluable! 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

I think you are likely right and I got the books and show mixed up, because I could not find any quote. I would need to read the chapter when both parties leave WF to be sure. And thanks for the link, it will sure be useful.

32 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

He thought about Jon with deep sorrow and felt ashamed like Ned really wanted Jon to know.  The promise he made to his sister, was not just to keep him safe, but to tell him who he is... the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna

In Jon's chapter when he learned that the King is dead and thought if his Father (Ned) would stay as Hand of the King to Joffrey or go home; we learned of his wish for Ned to finally go to him and reveal to him who his Mother was, that he is of age to understand and wanted to know.

In Jon's chapter where he commanded Gilly to spirit away Mance's son and leave her son at the wall, he promised her that when her boy is of age, if he wanted to know, Jon will reveal to him his true parentage.

Thanks for the contribution. For what you are saying, it appears that even though I was off the mark with the goodbye scene, there are indications that Ned may have hinted to Jon he would reveal his mother´s identity in due time.

[Ygrain]

I believe the OP is right, with only a minor correction: the reference to broken promises appears only in the musings in the Black Cells, whereas prior he thinks that he is a man of his word and paid a price to keep his promises to Lyanna. Imprisoned and awaiting death, he feels ashamed and wants to talk to Jon. IMHO, this ties to Bran's - and Rickon's - dream about Ned in the crypts of Winterfell where he tells something about Jon. Hopefully, Bran is going to remember some time soon...

Ouch. OUCH. What if we don't hear from Bran but from Rickon - perhaps in Davos' PoV, that would be fine - or perhaps Rickon will be a prologue/epilogue PoV...

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I believe the OP is right, with only a minor correction: the reference to broken promises appears only in the musings in the Black Cells, whereas prior he thinks that he is a man of his word and paid a price to keep his promises to Lyanna. Imprisoned and awaiting death, he feels ashamed and wants to talk to Jon. IMHO, this ties to Bran's - and Rickon's - dream about Ned in the crypts of Winterfell where he tells something about Jon. Hopefully, Bran is going to remember some time soon...

Ouch. OUCH. What if we don't hear from Bran but from Rickon - perhaps in Davos' PoV, that would be fine - or perhaps Rickon will be a prologue/epilogue PoV...

 

Rickon wouldn't just tell Jon...he'd tell everyone! He's not old enough and hasn't had enough of civilization to temper his streak of wolfblood, so he wouldn't know to keep his mouth shut. Bran is the safer bet. Bran would have a better chance of understanding the dangers inherent in outing Jon as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I also always found it interesting that Varys begins the conversation by telling Eddard he is a dead man.

Then seems to be trying to convince him to accept the queens deal, support Joffrey, admit guilt, and take the black. Presumably trying to convince him to survive.

But still repeats that Ned is a dead man. In fact he only says that Cersei would Vincent to let him take the black (not that Ned would survive), and ends up threatening Sansa's life as well. 

http://www.readbooksvampire.com/George_R.R._Martin/A_Game_of_Thrones/58.html

As we know, Ned gets executed... but that wasn't the plan. 

And a faceless man, held in the black cells, shows up convieniently with Yoren, who was waiting to meet Ned and take him to the wall. 

Even if Jeoffrey hadn't ordered Payne to kill Ned, was Eddard doomed anyway?

I've also wondered what Ned wanted to send in the message... and if he wrote one or not.

It sure seems to me like a convienient way for a reveal if Varys has a letter signed by Ned just hanging in the "Winds"...

[Ckram]

Something that caught my attention as I reread aGoT was the fact that the raven that brought the word of Ned's death to Winterfell had dried blood on its wings.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

Maester Luwin stared at the black bird as if it were a scorpion with feathers. He rose, slow as a sleepwalker, and moved to the window. When he whistled, the raven hopped onto his bandaged forearm. There was dried blood on its wings. "A hawk," Luwin murmured, "perhaps an owl. Poor thing, a wonder it got through." He took the letter from its leg.

Maester Luwin soon claimed to be a wound from an attack by another bird, but we know that soldiers shoot down ravens with arrows when they want to cut off enemy's communications.

Considering these events in the black cells, I wonder if the content of that message wasn't more important than it seemed to Luwin and who might have tried to keep it from reaching Winterfell.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

On 4/28/2017 at 8:09 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rickon wouldn't just tell Jon...he'd tell everyone! He's not old enough and hasn't had enough of civilization to temper his streak of wolfblood, so he wouldn't know to keep his mouth shut. Bran is the safer bet. Bran would have a better chance of understanding the dangers inherent in outing Jon as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rickon is on Skagos drinking Skagosi Entdraught growing tall, strong, and wild. He will be the wild wolf. lol I hope. On holiday and having a few drinks ATM.

I think OP is right. Only other thought was a letter to HR, but that would have been via Robb/Cat. It could have been cryptic, so I lean away from it because he wouldn't need to worry so much about Varys reading it.

Something like "tell that child the truth for me since I won't be alive to fulfill my promise." Or "the lion is ready to pounce and the eagle sits on his nest, unleash the dragons of war."

[Clegane'sPup]

I often wondered about that message. I don’t have a clue who Eddard wrote to. I figured that once Yoren died it would be forgotten. Then people in this thread pointed out that Varys said he would read it, so maybe the contents will be mentioned in future books.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV    "Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?" "That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own ends."  "Your own ends. What ends are those, Lord Varys?"

"Peace," Varys replied without hesitation. "If there was one soul in King's Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me." He sighed. "For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"  "The madness of mercy," Ned admitted.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya I      "Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer."

Another thing that puzzles me is how Cersei knew Yoren had Gendry with him.

Eddard's last chapter in GoT's was an interesting reread. My curiosity about what was in that message and who it was for has been renewed.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

Rickon is on Skagos drinking Skagosi Entdraught growing tall, strong, and wild. He will be the wild wolf. lol I hope. On holiday and having a few drinks ATM.

I think OP is right. Only other thought was a letter to HR, but that would have been via Robb/Cat. It could have been cryptic, so I lean away from it because he wouldn't need to worry so much about Varys reading it.

Something like "tell that child the truth for me since I won't be alive to fulfill my promise." Or "the lion is ready to pounce and the eagle sits on his nest, unleash the dragons of war."

Rickon was 3 when the whole thing started. At most he's 7 now. And living as he has been on Skagos, it's unlikely that anyone would have taught him the importance of keeping Targaryen relatives a secret.

A letter to Howland might work.

The dragons of war is a dead giveaway to anyone in Westeros that Targs are involved. Varys would put that together easily.  Telling the child the truth is better because it doesn't say which child, or even if the child references is one of Ned's. It could be Gendry, or another of Robert's bastards. Still a chance Varys would figure it out, but not as good a chance.

[Shi Qiang]

On 4/28/2017 at 5:55 AM, Armand Gargalen said:

Disclaimer: My copy of A Game of Thrones is stored in a box inside a garage and I can not reproduce exact quotes. I am following westeros.org chapters synopsis http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_58 and my own memory as reference. Please feel free to contribute with the quotes to support or debunk my ideas.

 

I believe there is a subtle and often ignored clue about Jon´s parentage in AGOT chapter 58. As we know, Ned promised Jon to tell him who his mother was the next time the would meet the last time they saw each other, when Ned was traveling to KL and Jon to The Wall.

Then, in chapter 58, when Ned is in the black cells, he at first thinks that he is going to die. He starts thinking of Robert, and that brings him to the Harrenhal Tourney, and finally, to Rhaergar and Lyanna, and the promises he made to his sister.

Later on in the same chapter, Ned is visited by Varys, and among other things, Ned asks him if he could deliver a message. Varys says he could, but when questioned, he admits he would read it. The subject is suddenly dropped, as if Ned is giving up on this message because of Varys unreliability.

The exchange ends with Varys trying to convince Ned to accept Cersei´s offer and take the black, and the issue of the message is not raised again the books.

I have a little theory about the content and the recipient of this message that wanted to discuss.

Many people assume R+L=J and that the promises Ned made to her sister included taking care of Jon and keeping him safe in secret. But throughout AGOT Ned keeps thinking of "broken promises", which have led many people to conclude that R+L=J can not be true. But what if the promises (note the plural) also included something along the lines of: "and tell him who he really is". Ned, being a careful person, has been waiting for years to fulfill this promise, afraid that if he tells Jon he might do something wrong, or the beans may spill out somehow. Now, the situation is changed, Jon is a sworn member of the NW, who, as clearly stated by Maester Aemon, have no family ties or claims. Ned thinks that he is about to die, and is tormented by the unfulfilled promise. That is why he wants to send that message. When you think about it, what other information may the message contain that Ned would mind Varys reading?

At the end of the chapter, though, Ned is clearly considering accepting the offer, what we know he finally did, and so is not concerned about that message any more. Now he has the chance to fulfill the promise and tell Jon safely in person. Sadly, it did not go that way, and is the last chance we had to learn Jon´s parentage from Ned.

Any ideas about this? 

That's one possible meaning.  It could lead to something potentially earth-shattering like that or something of a very personal nature along the lines of "Your mother is Ashara Dayne.  She's not a slut but a lady of noble character.  We fell in love and had you out of wedlock.  She preferred to die with her brother rather than serve King Robert.  She could not accept me marrying Lady Catelyn and killed herself out of grief.  We served different sides during the war.   I promised to marry another to benefit our war cause.   I chose honor and duty over love.  I kept it secret to preserve her  reputation."

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I always assiumed that the letter would have been to Jon, and he changed his mind about writing it when Varys admmitted he'd read it. I thought it was obvious. 

Thing is if ned did write a note revealing R+L =J to Jon, and Varys has read it I'd imagine Varys would have been sending agents up to the wall to kill jon as the last thing he and Illyrio want is another Targaryen heir getting in the way of fAegon.  So I doubt very much the note ever got written. It is just a clue for the astute reader.

[Armand Gargalen]

On 28/04/2017 at 9:57 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I also always found it interesting that Varys begins the conversation by telling Eddard he is a dead man.

Then seems to be trying to convince him to accept the queens deal, support Joffrey, admit guilt, and take the black. Presumably trying to convince him to survive.

But still repeats that Ned is a dead man. In fact he only says that Cersei would Vincent to let him take the black (not that Ned would survive), and ends up threatening Sansa's life as well. 

http://www.readbooksvampire.com/George_R.R._Martin/A_Game_of_Thrones/58.html

As we know, Ned gets executed... but that wasn't the plan. 

And a faceless man, held in the black cells, shows up convieniently with Yoren, who was waiting to meet Ned and take him to the wall. 

Even if Jeoffrey hadn't ordered Payne to kill Ned, was Eddard doomed anyway?

I've also wondered what Ned wanted to send in the message... and if he wrote one or not.

It sure seems to me like a convienient way for a reveal if Varys has a letter signed by Ned just hanging in the "Winds"...

Even though the chapter is not conclusive, as it does not explicitly states that the conversation ended there, I have always been under the impression that the message was never sent. It stands to reason, considering that Ned would not trust Varys after what happened with LF, and more so if Ned had decided to accept the offer and thought himself in the way to The Wall, where he could tell Jon in person.

[Clegane'sPup]

37 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

I have always been under the impression that the message was never sent.

That seems to be the general consensus. Any ideas about the message Yoren told Arya he received?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya I      "Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer."

 

[shadin]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That seems to be the general consensus. Any ideas about the message Yoren told Arya he received?

I think that is the message already, that he has to wait for Ned before leaving. I don't there was an actual physical letter. 

[Clegane'sPup]

16 hours ago, shadin said:

I think that is the message already, that he has to wait for Ned before leaving. I don't there was an actual physical letter. 

I was thinking Yoren received a paper message when it could actually have been a verbal message. Cool.