Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Not sure how you can make that determination objectively unless you were at all of these incidents. And even then, these things are typically chaotic enough that it is hard to make a clear determination. I make it from reports. Nothing is objective, but I can certainly read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, Kalbear said: But you're not blaming the authorities. You're not blaming the anarchists and alt-right assholes. You're blaming the protesters. That's how you started all this - by saying how protesting free speech is a Bad Thing. (I'm ignoring the obvious problems with that argument for the time being). The obvious conclusion is that if you object to violence at protests, and the protesters aren't the ones being violent, the solution is to not have protests. And this is hardly the first time you've complained about how protests are actually hurting the movement, making people more sympathetic, etc. Well, right now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that now. I'm saying we need to go after the people who are offering violence as a means to shut down speech. It is true that I don't care for people who shout others down, never have never will, but their actions are speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Well, right now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying that now. I'm saying we need to go after the people who are offering violence as a means to shut down speech. Okay, who are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seli Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Wait... are you saying you are okay with Christian protesters shutting down a Bill Maher appearance at a Christian University? It's Bill Maher. I would hope atheist protesters would shut down his appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Okay, who are they? The people picking up rocks and throwing them. The people tossing M-80s. Generally, the people who show up at the protests wearing masks, motorcycle helmets, and carrying shields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said: The people picking up rocks and throwing them. The people tossing M-80s. Generally, the people who show up at the protests wearing masks, motorcycle helmets, and carrying shields. Okay, so you're against the anarchists who are showing up regularly. Got it. What do they have to do with protests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 And the Nazi punchers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: I make it from reports. Nothing is objective, but I can certainly read. Ok, in the one instance you site (the man who was shot at the UW Milo protest) that was clearly the worst incidence of violence at that event. To then stretch that out to say that all the worst incidences of violence at these protests have been committed by the Pro-Trump side is simply incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: Ok, in the one instance you site (the man who was shot at the UW Milo protest) that was clearly the worst incidence of violence at that event. To then stretch that out to say that all the worst incidences of violence at these protests have been committed by the Pro-Trump side is simply incorrect. I didn't say that. I said that it's either been the pro-Milo people or it's been the anarchists. What it hasn't been is the actual protesters of the people talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Okay, so you're against the anarchists who are showing up regularly. Got it. What do they have to do with protests? Nothing other than giving a crowd for the anarchists to hide among which is not the fault of the protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Nothing other than giving a crowd for the anarchists to hide among which is not the fault of the protesters. Right. So you need to have a fairly big police presence to stop the anarchists or you need to simply disallow protests. You can't afford the former. You're proposing the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Right. So you need to have a fairly big police presence to stop the anarchists or you need to simply disallow protests. You can't afford the former. You're proposing the latter. No, I'm suggesting the former. I don't believe in the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunderMifflin Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 There's evidence that police are told to stand down and not interfere at those events. Also seems a bit of No Scotsman to say everyone that's peaceful is a protester but anyone that engages in violence is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No, I'm suggesting the former. I don't believe in the latter. But you can't have the former. It's not allowed and there isn't money for it. It also doesn't actually stop the violence. What else ya got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kalbear said: But you can't have the former. It's not allowed and there isn't money for it. It also doesn't actually stop the violence. What else ya got? Suck it up and deal and hope the authorities get their act together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Suck it up and deal and hope the authorities get their act together? So when you say: Quote Discuss, is violence where we are not at war the way to oppose the hate and vitriol that is being offered by those from the extreme right wing? What you mean is not for us to oppose violence, but for the police to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: snip I'm with you on this. And I'm going to throw this one out here: Quite frankly, I'm getting a bit fed up with some on the left that are continually looking to find justifications to limit free speech. I consider robust free speech protections essential to maintaining a non authoritarian society. And it seems to me, that at times, there seems to be, on the left, I hate to say, one ass pull after another to justify limiting it. I'm not a fan of this, particularly if we're going to try to limit free speech based on content or viewpoint. I absolutely dislike the right, which I think is pretty clear. And loathe people like Richard Spencer. That said, I'm more than willing to hash these debates out in the open with them. As far as political violence goes. I'm not a fan of that either. I think legitimizing it is bad road to go down, if you're goal is to keep a peaceful and functioning democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Kalbear said: So when you say: What you mean is not for us to oppose violence, but for the police to do it? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I'm with you on this. And I'm going to throw this one out here: Quite frankly, I'm getting a bid fed up with some on the left that are continually looking to find justifications to limit free speech. I consider robust free speech protections essential to maintaining a non authoritarian society. And it seems to me, that times, there seems to be, at times, on the left I hate to say, one ass pull after another to limit it. I'm not a fan of this, particularly if were going to try to limit free speech based on content or viewpoint. I absolutely dislike the right, which I think is pretty clear. And loathe people like Richard Spencer. That said, I'm more than willing to hash these debates out in the open with them. As far as political violence goes. I'm not a fan of that either. I think legitimizing it is bad road to go down, if your goal is to keep a peaceful and functioning democracy. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 In other news, Milo is going into a $12m business aimed at trolling tours. Way to weaponize free speech! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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