Valyrian Blood

[Yuzzybus]

Just how much Valyrian blood does Dany (if A+R=D), Jon (if R+L=J), and Tyrion (if A+J=T) really have?

I am assuming that all Targaryen and Velaryon ancestors prior to Jaehaerys I are 100% Valyrian stock.  Same for Larra Rogare from Lys.

The other houses that have contributed to the gene pool are House Arryn, House Martell, House Dayne, and House Blackwood.  For Tyrion and Jon one has to add House Lannister and House Stark respectively.  For simplicity, I am considering any non-Valyrian person married into the line to be 100% of their house.  Obviously this is not accurate since these houses usually marry outside their families.

 

Rodrik Arryn (100%A) marries Daella Targaryen (100% V) and they have Aemma Arryn (1/2V, 1/2A)

Aemma Arryn marries Viserys I (100%V) and they have Rhaenyra (3/4V, 1/4A)

Rhaenyra marries Daemon (100%V) and they have Viserys II (7/8V, 1/8A).

Viserys II marries Larra Rogare (100%V) and they have Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight all (15/16V, 1/16A).

Naerys' son Daeron II would also be (15/16V, 1/16A) whether or not Aegon IV or Aemon is the father.

Daeron II marries Mariah Martell (100%M) and they have Maekar (15/32V, 1/32A, 1/2M).

Maekar marries Dyanna Dayne (100% Dayne [possible proto-Valyrian]) and have Aegon V (15/64V, 1/64A, 1/4M, 1/2D).

Aegon V marries "Black Betha" Blackwood (100%B) and have Jaehaerys II and Shaera both (15/128V, 1/128A, 1/8M, 1/4D, 1/2B)

As we get a couple generations of sibling marriages so Aerys II, Rhaella,  Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenarys would also all be (15/128Valyrian, 1/128Arryn, 1/8Martell, 1/4Dayne, 1/2Blackwood).

If Aerys II impregnated Joanna Lannister (100% L) then Tyrion is (15/256 Valyrian, 1/256 Arryn, 1/16Martell, 1/8Dayne, 1/4Blackwood, 1/2Lannister).  

If Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna Stark (100%S) then Jon is (15/256Valyrian, 1/256Arryn, 1/16Martell, 1/8Dayne, 1/4Blackwood, 1/2Stark). 

Blackwood genes may be another explanation of Tyrion and Jon's eye color.  Jon's grey eyes are "so dark they seem almost black" a blend of Lyanna's grey and Rhaegar's dark indigo eyes. Tryion's heterochromia on the other hand seems to point to a less harmonious union of Aerys and Joanna.

Despite all the Targaryen inbreeding, the current generation has more relation with Westeros than Valyria.

[Yucef Menaerys]

It doesn't matter what percentage of valyrian blood you have as long as you have inherited the right magic genes, also don't try to analyze the genetics of ASOIAF with real world genetics. GRRM gets to choose who will get the magical genes and who won't, it seems to me that if a male targaryen marries a non-valyrian person his children are more likely to inherit valyrian magical genes than if  a female targaryen marries outside of house targaryen, there are cases where the children of female targaryens inherit magic genes like in rhaenyra's case but it is rare. 

Jon snow might even have more valyrian blood by percentage than Dany but it doesn't matter since he did not inherit any valyrian magic. How do you know someone has valyrian magic genes? Well there a couple of signs that indicate someone having the magical genes like having dragon dreams (almost all trueborn targaryens have this ability as mentioned by Aemon) or having prophetic dreams similar to green dreams like in the case of Daenys the dreamer or dameon II blackfyre who had a dream of his brothers dying and ser Duncan in the kingsguard, but by far the most important indication of valyrian magic blood is the ability to ride dragons

It is for the reasons I have mentioned above that I don't think Jon snow has inherited any valyrian magic blood from Rhaegar since we don't see him having dragon dreams, now just because you have dragon dreams doesn't make you a possesor of valyrian magical blood, I think there are two types of dragon dreams; the typical dreams about dragons which anyone can have (like tyrion) and hardcore magical dragon dreams like the ones dany or Aemon have.

Let me just end this by saying percentage of valyrian blood does not matter as long as you have inherited the right magical genes from your ancestors.

[Bael's Bastard]

From the parents of Aegon I and Rhaenys to the parents of Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys, something like two thirds of them were Targs or Velaryons with Targ mothers, not counting the Arryn with Targ mother, or Rogares.

There are six Targ brother/sister marriages, one Targ niece/uncle marriage, two Targ/Velaryon with Targ mother marriages, and a Targ/Arryn with Targ mother marriages in the line of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenaerys during that period.

So I think there is plenty of Valyrian goodness coursing through their veins. But I don't think those shots of Blackwood (on both sides for Jon), Dayne, Martell, and Arryn ancestry hurt.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Yuzzybus said:

Just how much Valyrian blood does Dany (if A+R=D), Jon (if R+L=J), and Tyrion (if A+J=T) really have?

I am assuming that all Targaryen and Velaryon ancestors prior to Jaehaerys I are 100% Valyrian stock.  Same for Larra Rogare from Lys.

I don't think you can assume that. The Velaryons wouldn't be pure-blooded Valyrians, and thus not even Aegon and his sister-wives would only have Valyrian ancestors. And Aenys I was likely not Aegon's seed, so he has only a Valyrian mother.

6 hours ago, Yuzzybus said:

Despite all the Targaryen inbreeding, the current generation has more relation with Westeros than Valyria.

That is certainly true up to a point but all the descendants of the Targaryens in Westeros still retain all the inbred Valyrian ancestors back from Valyria. Targaryens may have married their sisters for thousands of years, and this makes even distant cousins of the present Targaryen royal like the Baratheons, Martells, Tarths, Plumms, or Penroses different from common men. If there is really some special magic in their blood.

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think you can assume that. The Velaryons wouldn't be pure-blooded Valyrians, and thus not even Aegon and his sister-wives would only have Valyrian ancestors.

Why do you say that? My understanding is they are Valyrians, just not dragonriding Valyrians. What do you know about them that makes you say they're not pure blooded Valyrians?

I don't believe the theory that Aegon was sterile and Rhaenys was impregnated by one of her "admirers". I don't think it adds anything to the story for Dany to not be directly descended from the Conqueror. That's what makes her strong, remembering who she is.

[Yucef Menaerys]

13 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Why do you say that? My understanding is they are Valyrians, just not dragonriding Valyrians. What do you know about them that makes you say they're not pure blooded Valyrians?

I don't believe the theory that Aegon was sterile and Rhaenys was impregnated by one of her "admirers". I don't think it adds anything to the story for Dany to not be directly descended from the Conqueror. That's what makes her strong, remembering who she is.

It depends on what Lord varys meant by 'pure blooded', if by that he means having valyrian magical genes then yes they are not pure blooded, if he means having common valyrian blood then it is also possible that they are not pure blooded since they are bound to have married outside of their family unless if they practiced incest,  which they most likely don't since it was a dragonlords thing but it's really amazing how the velaryons have managed to retain their valyrian features of silver-gold hair for so long, I believe even the last head of the house was mentioned as having fair hair, and we all know aurane waters also looks valyrian. Maybe the velaryons just marry lysseni women or other valyrian looking people

BTW I also do not believe in the theory that aenys was not aegon's son, it's a stretch and doesn't serve any purpose that all the later targaryens were not descendants of Aegon the Conqueror,  even if Rhaenys entertained other men I don't think she'd be foolish enough to have their babies, imagine if she had relations with a man that wasn't valyrian and she ended up giving birth to a black haired baby? Aegon will definitely know that it wasn't his child......no I don't think she'd do that it's too risky. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 hours ago, Yuzzybus said:

 

As we get a couple generations of sibling marriages so Aerys II, Rhaella,  Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenarys would also all be (15/128Valyrian, 1/128Arryn, 1/8Martell, 1/4Dayne, 1/2Blackwood).

 

You know what this means? Viserys was to be the next Sword of the Morning/Azor Ahai/Savoir of humanity. Those horse lords killed him and screwed over Westeros in doing it. The Dothraki only bring death and destruction and they sealed the fate of the world. 

Barristan needs to start training Daenerys with swords pronto when she gets back or else all hope is lost. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Why do you say that? My understanding is they are Valyrians, just not dragonriding Valyrians. What do you know about them that makes you say they're not pure blooded Valyrians?

The simple fact that we don't know all their ancestors. As far as we know the Velaryons did not practice brother-sister incest, at least not after the Conquest, and that would mean that they would have likely intermarried with other non-Valyrian houses living in the Narrow Sea and even eastern Westeros (Darklyns, Masseys, Bar Emmons, etc.), making them not pure-blooded Valyrians.

Keep in mind that the Velaryons came to Driftmark before the Targaryens, most likely when the dragonlords first took possession of Dragonstone and raised the citadel there.

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I don't believe the theory that Aegon was sterile and Rhaenys was impregnated by one of her "admirers". I don't think it adds anything to the story for Dany to not be directly descended from the Conqueror. That's what makes her strong, remembering who she is.

Well, if her (and Aemon, Jon, Tyrion, Bloodraven, Aegon, etc.) are not descended from Aegon the Conqueror directly she is not going to lose anything, either. The Conqueror isn't a character, just a name. And Aenys I was still his sister-wife's son as well as Aegon's legal son.

5 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

It depends on what Lord varys meant by 'pure blooded', if by that he means having valyrian magical genes then yes they are not pure blooded, if he means having common valyrian blood then it is also possible that they are not pure blooded since they are bound to have married outside of their family unless if they practiced incest,  which they most likely don't since it was a dragonlords thing but it's really amazing how the velaryons have managed to retain their valyrian features of silver-gold hair for so long, I believe even the last head of the house was mentioned as having fair hair, and we all know aurane waters also looks valyrian. Maybe the velaryons just marry lysseni women or other valyrian looking people.

Both the Velaryons and the Targaryens themselves might have occasionally married outside the family even back in Old Valyria. Incestuous marriage was the ideal, not something they could always maintain. An only son with no sisters, aunts, or cousins to marry has to look elsewhere for a bride, and there might have been situations in the struggles for political power in the Freehold when a dragonlord family had to seal political alliances with a marriage or where a young dragonlord decided to follow his heart rather than custom, marrying a woman for love, etc.

5 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

BTW I also do not believe in the theory that aenys was not aegon's son, it's a stretch and doesn't serve any purpose that all the later targaryens were not descendants of Aegon the Conqueror,  even if Rhaenys entertained other men I don't think she'd be foolish enough to have their babies, imagine if she had relations with a man that wasn't valyrian and she ended up giving birth to a black haired baby? Aegon will definitely know that it wasn't his child......no I don't think she'd do that it's too risky. 

Well, it is quite clear that Aegon would have encouraged both his sister-wives to do anything in their power to get themselves pregnant. The idea is that Aegon the Conqueror himself was sterile, and (eventually) realized that fact. The fact that the Targaryens were married even before the Conquest but their first child was only born 7 AC, seven years after the Conquest, is very telling. Aegon would have needed heirs even before the Conquest, but thereafter the need to have children would have been even greater. And still there are no hints that either Rhaenys or Visenya were ever pregnant before they gave birth to their sons, and Gyldayn even claims Visenya was considered to be barren before she announced being pregnant with Maegor in 11 AC.

Aerys and Rhaella had a lot of miscarriages, stillbirths, and children that died in the cradle (as did other Targaryens) but for the Conqueror and his two sister-wives nothing similar is attested. That is very odd. Jaehaerys I and Alysanne were also married for decades and produced thirteen children in total (and Aenys I and Alyssa six). But the Conqueror who had not one but two wives only two children? That doesn't make a lot of sense. We also agree that something was very wrong with Maegor who had six wives (and also tried to impregnate women he was married to, unlike Aegon) and no living children. Aegon's need to have heirs of his own body (or children he could claim were his seed) was even stronger than Maegor's (who was just father's spare). Aegon was trying to found a dynasty. That doesn't work if you have no children.

Thus we can safely say that the rumors surrounding Rhaenys' favorites serve a purpose in the overall story. Aegon finally realized he could not father any children and then his sister-wives took things into their own hands. This also helps explain why things ended as they did because especially Visenya would have known that Aenys and Maegor were not, in fact, half-brothers nor the children of Aegon the Conqueror. Their rights to the throne would have gone through their mothers and Visenya was the elder, not Rhaenys.

Visenya may have used sorcery (explaining why Maegor became as bad an apple as he was) and Rhaenys the much easier way of using a fair-haired sperm-donor (a Lysene mummer, mime, wit, or singer would have been ideal to ensure that a child from such a union would have Valyrian features).

This whole thing cannot be easily dismissed. The fact that official historiography tells us that Rhaenys' and Visenya's sons were the Conqueror's seed is about as accurate as the claims of people like Pycelle that Cersei's children are Robert's seed. The line of Aenys I prevailed, and thus he was the Conqueror's trueborn son. Just as Rhaenyra's sons would have been trueborn Velaryons had they survived and the Blacks decisively won the Dance.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

(Never mind).

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/28/2017 at 11:37 AM, Yuzzybus said:

Just how much Valyrian blood does Dany (if A+R=D), Jon (if R+L=J), and Tyrion (if A+J=T) really have?

This is all pretty silly. Genetics aren't like mixing paint, your genotype is your genotype, you have a gene or you don't. It doesn't matter if only my great great great maternal grandfather and my great great great paternal grandather had blonde hair out of a whole family with brown hair, if I manage to get both of those copies of the blond gene then I am a blond. It doesn't matter what "percentage" blond I am.

Similarly, if "dragonriding" is a recessive (or partially recessive) gene, then it could stay dormant (or only partially expressed) for generations before you happen to roll the dice and come up with seven.

Do Daynes have dragonriding genes to go with their unexplained Valyrian features? Are blackwood/stark warg/greenseeing genes viable stand-ins/augments for the gene? We have no idea.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Targaryen blood is immaterial because all the great houses boast of some great bloodline  ,Stark marrying Royce and Manderly , while Freys marrying almost everybody .

[leonardof]

There no such thing as pure Valyrian blood.

You may estimate how much percent of Aegon's and his sisters' blood went to whom, though, provided that you keep in mind what @Damon_Tor said about painting versus genes.

Maybe we could talk about a "pure blood" if Aegon and his sisters descended exclusively from the family that had fled Valyrian hundreds of years before, and this family descended exclusively from the people whom had found the dragons at the Fourteen Flames thousands of years before, and these people descended exclusively from a single couple. To call this unlikely pure blood "Valyrian" would imply that all others families in Valyria, or at least all noble ones, descended exclusively from those people who had found the dragons. If you are willing to admit that at least some of the Valyrians had a parent not descending from the people whom found the dragons, then you are admitting the Valyrian blood was not pure after all

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't know about "pure blood," but considering the incest goes back to Valyria, not just post-Doom Targaryen Dragonstone, it sounds like the dragonriding families didn't even like intermarrying with other dragonriding families.

[maudisdottir]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

The simple fact that we don't know all their ancestors. As far as we know the Velaryons did not practice brother-sister incest, at least not after the Conquest, and that would mean that they would have likely intermarried with other non-Valyrian houses living in the Narrow Sea and even eastern Westeros (Darklyns, Masseys, Bar Emmons, etc.), making them not pure-blooded Valyrians.

That's your assumption and not anything from the text. And it's a fair one too, I'm not saying it's impossible or even improbable, just that we don't know. And therefore can't make claims like "the Velaryons wouldn't be pure-blooded Valyrians".

The only house we know that they married into pre-Conquest was the Targaryens. So there's no evidence for what you're saying.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

That's your assumption and not anything from the text. And it's a fair one too, I'm not saying it's impossible or even improbable, just that we don't know. And therefore can't make claims like "the Velaryons wouldn't be pure-blooded Valyrians".

The only house we know that they married into pre-Conquest was the Targaryens. So there's no evidence for what you're saying.

I didn't say there was. But if you want to say that being of Valyrian descent - as the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigars clearly are - has to mean they have only Valyrian ancestors then this is clearly wrong because we don't know their family trees. In the case of the Celtigars and the Velaryons we don't even know whether they practiced incest in the years between the Doom and the Conquest.

And since we know even the Targaryens occasionally married outside the family we cannot really expect that the Velaryons or Celtigars didn't do a similar thing, especially if they never practiced incest or gave it up when they moved west.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Why do people insist on using this ridiculous notion of % of blood to assess the Targaryens. Or any family for that matter? It's absurd! You either inherit the dragon riding, prophetic dreaming genes or you don't!

It always makes me imagine someone with big jugs of blood pouring various measurements into a person and saying, Tada! You are now x % this that and the other. 

 

[maudisdottir]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I didn't say there was. But if you want to say that being of Valyrian descent - as the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigars clearly are - has to mean they have only Valyrian ancestors then this is clearly wrong because we don't know their family trees.

But I didn't say that. You're the one who claimed "the Velaryons wouldn't be pure-blooded Valyrians" and I asked for evidence, but you only have an assumption. Which is all well and good, but it's not fact so you can't really assert such a thing. The Velaryons had (have) the Valyrian look so there must be a certain level of interbreeding with other Valyrians.