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Noye´s lesson and Eddard´s negligence


Jaak

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At Wall, Noye has to explain to 14 year old Jon Snow just why Jon is a better swordsboy than older and bigger commoners, and how to lead soldiers.

That´s convenient for us the readers - giving the exposition as to why nobles lead - but also indicates folly on the part of Jon... and of Eddard.

Why haven´t Eddard, and Rodrik Cassel, explained it to Jon years earlier? He may have been a child, he may not have obeyed instructions at all times, but it should have been no news to have it explained to him.

Also: Winterfell has a standing peacetime guard of 200 men.

For comparison, Castle Black was 500 brethren - not all of them soldiers. Castle Black´s 500 included stewards and builders. Whereas any manservants doing steward´s work at Winterfell were over and above the muster of 200 guards.

Winterfell´s guard would need a stream of new recruits - say, on average 10 per year. Yes, Winterfell may or may not have taken men with some experience... but still there could have been need for training.

Who trained recruits to rank and file of Winterfell guards?

Did Rodrik Cassel, as the master at arms of Winterfell, train the recruits to guards alongside the boys of the family?

Now, even the peacetime standing guard at Winterfell, of 200 men, would have needed multiple officers. Say, 10 sergeants, ensigns and lieutenants to command 20 man units of the 200 total.

And Stark standing army must be bigger than that. We often hear of "holdfasts" - a deserter caught near one, Robb visiting holdfasts, abandoned Queenscrown in New Gift...

Starks hold large demesne lands not enfeoffed to hereditary lords. We hear of no lords disinherited by Alysanne´s seizure of New Gift. The holdfasts must be commanded by nonhereditary appointees. Unfortunately we never get a close view of an operating holdfast.

A likely size of Stark standing army might include 10+ holdfasts, each with 10...20 guards, and a commander.

Thus, Eddard would have needed 20+ low-level appointed officers for his standing army alone - as estimated, 10 for the subunits of his 200 men guard at Winterfell, and 10+ for detachments at holdfasts.

Would these 20+ posts at Eddard´s grant have been suitable for Bastard of Winterfell, and his trueborn younger brethren, when they grew up?

What was Eddard doing to prepare Jon for that kind of jobs?

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I would think that it would normally be considered to low a task for a son of Lord Stark. They are supposed to at the least, from my understanding, be significant courtiers with their lord or bannermen themselves. Not slumming it out with the smallfolk. If Benjen had sons then they might be up for that kind of task, maybe.

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40 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I would think that it would normally be considered to low a task for a son of Lord Stark. They are supposed to at the least, from my understanding, be significant courtiers with their lord or bannermen themselves. Not slumming it out with the smallfolk. If Benjen had sons then they might be up for that kind of task, maybe.

An appointed commander of a holdfast is potentially a great "lord". In peacetime, commanding ten or twenty man standing army at the castle, and collecting taxes to Lord Stark from hundreds of smallfolk. In wartime, potentially mobilizing hundreds of men from that smallfolk and commanding a detachment of Stark army. Being the only "lord" the smallfolk meets except for the Lord Stark far away in Winterfell who rarely visits any particular holdfast.

Yes, maybe too lowly for second legitimate son of Lord - he might be appointed straight to command 50 men, not 10. But Stark lord can have extended family... whether a trueborn son of a younger trueborn son, or son of Lord but a bastard. Both could be treated as minor nobles and appointed as lower level officers. After appropriate training.

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3 hours ago, Jaak said:

At Wall, Noye has to explain to 14 year old Jon Snow just why Jon is a better swordsboy than older and bigger commoners, and how to lead soldiers.

That´s convenient for us the readers - giving the exposition as to why nobles lead - but also indicates folly on the part of Jon... and of Eddard.

Why haven´t Eddard, and Rodrik Cassel, explained it to Jon years earlier? He may have been a child, he may not have obeyed instructions at all times, but it should have been no news to have it explained to him.

Might be he had been told that, only he didn't actually comprehend that, until facing the harsh reality of the Wall (somewhat, because there he still was the son of Ned Stark, groomed for Lord Commander some time in the future). Jon wouldn't be the first teenager to think that what the elders say isn't actually "real".

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I think everything moved too quick for Eddard Stark, as he said he was never meant to be Lord of Winterfell it was to be Brandon. I mean Robb was what almost 15 and it seems like Ned hadn't even considering who he would marry him too. How long was he going wait with Robb his heir? I'm not saying he needed to be married at 15 but him and Cat should have at least had a list narrowed down to who would be his best options.

I don't think Ned put too much thought into Robb ruling or what Jon was going to do as he saw them as children still. With a long winter coming to the North it would have been wise of Ned to have had a wife chosen for Robb unless he wanted to wait until winter ended which could have been a decade for all he knew.

The Night's Watch doesn't care how old the men are that they are getting and want to put them into their system as soon as possible. Unlike Ned who just wanted to watch his kids play.

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4 hours ago, Jaak said:

An appointed commander of a holdfast is potentially a great "lord". In peacetime, commanding ten or twenty man standing army at the castle, and collecting taxes to Lord Stark from hundreds of smallfolk. In wartime, potentially mobilizing hundreds of men from that smallfolk and commanding a detachment of Stark army. Being the only "lord" the smallfolk meets except for the Lord Stark far away in Winterfell who rarely visits any particular holdfast.

Yes, maybe too lowly for second legitimate son of Lord - he might be appointed straight to command 50 men, not 10. But Stark lord can have extended family... whether a trueborn son of a younger trueborn son, or son of Lord but a bastard. Both could be treated as minor nobles and appointed as lower level officers. After appropriate training.

I think we agree. Commanding a holdfast with ten men-at-arms like that would be fine for the lord's nephew or a cousin but it would certainly be a larger holdfast than that for a Lord Paramount's son. Remember Gerold Lannister and Lady Webber? Lannister would have more as his brother's adviser than he would if he married to become the Lord of Coldmoat. So I feel that the standards of the close relatives of a ruling Lord Paramount would be higher than for most other nobles.

Thus while Lord Ryswells brothers and cousins could rule holdfasts they are both of a lesser House and with some distance to Lord Ryswell himself.

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I don't believe the Starks held those holdfasts themselves. A household knight that becomes responsible for a holdfast, its garrison and the land around it is no longer a household knight, but really a landed knight. That's just a diminutive of being a lord. Of course, because in the North people don't hold the Seven, there are few knights, so maybe "landed officer" would be more fitting.

The books have some important characters, like Kevan Lannister and (before the Battle of the Blackwater) Garlan Tyrell, whom are only household knights. It is probably, then, a little too much for a bastard to become a landed knight, although Cathelyn would probably support it to get rid of him.

I don't remember Ned ever being considered specially fond of the "smallfolk", but I find it hard to imagine that Jon never trained with anyone except for Rob and ser Rodrik. Maybe this is simply an inconsistency for the sake of exposition to the reader.

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23 hours ago, Jaak said:

At Wall, Noye has to explain to 14 year old Jon Snow just why Jon is a better swordsboy than older and bigger commoners, and how to lead soldiers.

That´s convenient for us the readers - giving the exposition as to why nobles lead - but also indicates folly on the part of Jon... and of Eddard.

Why haven´t Eddard, and Rodrik Cassel, explained it to Jon years earlier? He may have been a child, he may not have obeyed instructions at all times, but it should have been no news to have it explained to him.

Also: Winterfell has a standing peacetime guard of 200 men.

For comparison, Castle Black was 500 brethren - not all of them soldiers. Castle Black´s 500 included stewards and builders. Whereas any manservants doing steward´s work at Winterfell were over and above the muster of 200 guards.

Winterfell´s guard would need a stream of new recruits - say, on average 10 per year. Yes, Winterfell may or may not have taken men with some experience... but still there could have been need for training.

Who trained recruits to rank and file of Winterfell guards?

Did Rodrik Cassel, as the master at arms of Winterfell, train the recruits to guards alongside the boys of the family?

Now, even the peacetime standing guard at Winterfell, of 200 men, would have needed multiple officers. Say, 10 sergeants, ensigns and lieutenants to command 20 man units of the 200 total.

And Stark standing army must be bigger than that. We often hear of "holdfasts" - a deserter caught near one, Robb visiting holdfasts, abandoned Queenscrown in New Gift...

Starks hold large demesne lands not enfeoffed to hereditary lords. We hear of no lords disinherited by Alysanne´s seizure of New Gift. The holdfasts must be commanded by nonhereditary appointees. Unfortunately we never get a close view of an operating holdfast.

A likely size of Stark standing army might include 10+ holdfasts, each with 10...20 guards, and a commander.

Thus, Eddard would have needed 20+ low-level appointed officers for his standing army alone - as estimated, 10 for the subunits of his 200 men guard at Winterfell, and 10+ for detachments at holdfasts.

Would these 20+ posts at Eddard´s grant have been suitable for Bastard of Winterfell, and his trueborn younger brethren, when they grew up?

What was Eddard doing to prepare Jon for that kind of jobs?

I think that the both Rodrik Cassel and Ned Stark did explain it to Jon ,there were times when Robb beat him , but what happen the dream of  being one of the Night's Watch came into conflict with the reality which turn Jon into a jerk .

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Whether Eddard foresaw a holdfast or not (I think not), he raised Jon to be a commander. Jon got the same education as Robb, and we know Eddard prayed Jon and Robb would grow to be close, and raised them together.

If we look at  Lords Frey, Allyrion, Velaryon, Caron, Hewett, we see it isn't that uncommon to raise a bastard with the legitimate children. The white book has stories of bastards being tourney champions and emerging as glorious commanders during wars (and Stannis had no hesitation leaving Dragonstone's home guard in the command of the bastard of NIghtsong.)

When Eddard discusses what to do about Jon with Catelyn and Maester Luwin, both his anger at his wife's refusal to have Jon stay at Winterfell with her and Robb, and Catelyn's obduracy on that point, show that his becoming a man of the Night's Watch was a lower station than Jon had been raised to take. Catelyn doesn't mind removing him from the castle community and giving him a meaner post in life. Eddard does.

It is interesting to me that Maester Luwin is an advocate for Jon joining the black brothers. Maester Luwin belongs to a brotherhood himself, albeit a less martial one, and one that keeps most of it's members apart from each other their whole lives, living in the world of the Nobility rather than in the Citidel with each other. Also, Maester Luwin sees no dishonour in serving in the Night's Watch. As a man who has lived in both the North and the South, he shows Tyrion's prejudice is his own, that it is completely plausible that Eddard regards the Night's Watch as a noble calling, and was not packing Jon off to a midden heap for the misfits of the realm. If it really was just that, Tyrion would have been sent there long ago.

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On 29/04/2017 at 8:15 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Might be he had been told that, only he didn't actually comprehend that, until facing the harsh reality

Excellent point. Donal Noye is the right person at the right time. Eddard Stark had taught Jon to “Know the men who follow you...and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.”, but look at how he puts that lesson into practice: "At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken..."(AGoT, Ch.22 Arya II) Eddard's getting to know you sessions clearly demark who the ruler is, and who the servant is.

Eddard had not been raised to be the Lord of Winterfell, but he had been raised a Stark, and his ideas of getting to know the men are no notions of equity. There is no idea here of him dining at a common table, jostling with all comers. He dines at the Lord's table, and a single servant under his command has the extraordinary honour to sit with him (on ordinary days), and speak about their contribution to his castle, and find a reason to die for him.

Eddard is not the best person to teach Jon to check his privilege. Winterfell is  not the best place for Jon to learn that lesson, either. In the Winterfell training yard, he is treated like a son of the Lord, except when the Royals enter the training yard. Then he is banished and watches (somewhat resentfully, going by remarks like “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” and "Look at the arms on his surcoat...Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister...Joffrey is truly a little shit,”(AGoT, Ch.07 Arya I)) at a distance, out of sight in the covered bridge, how unchecked privilege operates.

Later, there are recollections of this event. Arya witnesses both Tommen and Bran staggering, exhausted and well matched. She completely misses the one glorious moment that is relived amplified and repeated in Bran's memory, of striking Tommen into the dust. Later, she strikes Tommen into the dust herself, without a sword or a second thought. Sansa remembers how Bran and Tommen played together with wooden swords, and judging from Tommen's plucking up the courage to mew in his mother's presence “I don’t want Brandon to die,” his memory of the event seems to be consistent with Sansa's. Jon recalls how well padded Tommen was, (although Bran was likewise well padded),  and takes it as a moral lesson on the unfairness of legitimacy “Yet Bran’s dead, and pudgy pink-faced Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne, with a crown nestled amongst his golden curls.”

There is not much to suggest that Eddard's children mixed with common children in his time in Winterfell. When Prince Bran is the Stark in Winterfell, the common children play Lord of the Crossing with the Freys and Rickon while Bran muses on the unfairness of mobility. This time, Little Walder smacks Rickon into the dirt. I can't find much evidence of the Stark children playing with commoners apart from that. Bran's reaction when baled up by Stiv, Osha, Hali. Wallen and the other two outlaws shows he really has little to do with commoners except when they are servants of Winterfell. 

Robb too. All he knows about the girls of Wintertown seems to be gleaned from what Theon tells him of his escapades at the inn with Kyra and Bessa. And the way Theon addresses Osha shows that he does not mix with the common folk. much to the amusement of the more egalitarian Ironborn, when he returns to them. It would be reasonable to infer that Jon's knowledge of the common folk of Wintertown was also obtained vicariously through Theon. Except that Jon dislikes Theon.

At Winterfell, Jon is the underdog. The boys of Wintertown and the local holdfasts that enter Ser Rodrick's training yard hoping to join the guards of Winterfell, or marshalled to train to be part of Winterfell's militia, might have had greater disadvantages than him, but they don't count, they are not on his level, not of Stark blood. They, like all the commonfolk Jon and the Stark children meet, exist to serve House Stark, or to serve Winterfell.

On the road to the Wall, the privilege of Jon's Stark blood seems, if anything, to be more pronounced. We don't see Rast and Albett, or even Yoren, sharing a shelter with Benjen Stark, Head Ranger, for all that they are his brothers and his blood runs black. After a fortnight on the road together, Jon still doesn't know the name of the two boys who are to be his brothers in Black. It is doubtful that Benjen ever bothered to find them out. It is partly Yoren's fault, introducing them as "Rapers" rather than "Rast and Albett".  The relationship between Yoren and Benjen seems closer. They communicate with just a glance, but even this is not free of the trappings of unearnt status: Benjen isn't skinning a squirrel and helping the cook, Yoren doesn't retire in state to his private humpy, leaving the boys to wander where they will and himself with no idea where they have gone.

Benjen talks a lot about how men earn merit in the Night's Watch, but truly, if merit and talent were the criteria, he would have Yoren's job, and Yoren would have his. Benjen, with his noble mein and nice clothes, has inspired Bran and Jon. They both want "to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others" (AGoT, Ch.19 Jon III) and they are both the kind of recruit Jeor Mormont has identified himself to be most in need of.

To Robb and Sansa (and Eddard, and possibly many Northern lords, and Lord Yohn Royce) it is Benjen's visage and Stark Blood they think of when they think of the honour it gives their family to have a brother serving on the Wall. They spout their history and geography lessons to impress him, and no doubt follow those subjects with the more interest because they associate his adventures with those of the legendary Night's Watch. 

Yoren, on the other hand, seems to be single handedly bringing the Night's Watch into disrepute throughout the realm. One look at his sinister, crooked old frame and tangled beard, one whiff of his unwashed body, and all the lords that see him know the Watch has fallen on hard times, is not like the songs. Then the Lords, from the Red Keep to the humblest holdfast, escort him to their dungeons and do their best to move him on quickly. Both Tyrion and Sansa feel sorry for Jon's fate, the minute they lay eyes on Yoren. Farmers hold their arrows at the notch and tell him and his rats to get out of their orchards. He is a magnificent man and a canny survivalist, but a lousy recruiter (literally lousy).

Yoren doesn't have any illusions of equity in the Black Brothers, and he isn't particularly scrupulous when it comes to serving the Realm rather than playing politics. True, he doesn't defend Tyrion when Catelyn takes him, but he does take off as fast as he can go to tell Eddard Stark, Hand of the King at the Red Keep, exactly what happened. He claims he was moved to do so because Benjen's blood runs black, but truthfully, he gets a private audience with the Hand because Benjen is a Stark and they think he might have news of Benjen or Jon, whose blood runs Stark.

He takes Arya from Kings Landing, and Gendry too. As Lommy pointed out, he refused to yield to Lorch's men and paid the price. As Arya pointed out, they should not have stayed at the holdfast that had been deserted by it's own people. Yoren's notion that they were at war, like it or not, while the Black Brothers took no part, was fatally flawed. But he knew that. He picked and chose whose hospitality he took, and whose he avoided. He died surrounded by the corpses of four Lannister lieges. I think he would have made a much better Head Ranger than Benjen, who seems to have spent the summer giving grief to wildlings indiscriminately, completely failing to detect the rise of the Others, or even to plumb the mysteries of the Haunted Forest. Even Caster dislikes Benjen, and Craster is barely a wildling, and a friend of the watch.

Yoren's appearance and personal hygiene would do him no great disservice north of the Wall, and his canny instincts and many abilities would earn respect, perhaps even the trust, of some of the wildlings Benjen simply slaughters. Yoren is open-minded about the mysteries of the Haunted Forest and the return of the Others, and spent thirty years on the Wall, presumably not all of them recruiting in the south. (I'm basing that on the fact that if Yoren was bringing about seventeen recruits to the Wall every four months or so for the last thirty years, he would single-handedly have ensured the Night's Watch numbered over one thousand men by now).

Benjen isn't quite as arrogant as Waymar Royce, but he is cut from the same cloth, trained by maesters in deductive reasoning, determined to make his missions successful, regardless of occasional twinges of uneasiness prompted by uncertain signs, or the fear of his superstitious underlings, fostered by the tales of women and wildlings.

Still, Yoren doesn't call Jon out on his privilege and snobbery. He supports it. Benjen Stark's nephew remains his uncles charge, rather than falling in with the rapers as just another recruit. Never mind that it splits the party and facilitates a situation where team members can just wander off.

While I am talking about missing people and Waymar, it seems very unlikely to me that Jeor Mormont would insist on having a man so young and inexperienced as Waymar to head a ranging sorty after only six months at the wall, on so flimsy and dubious a principle as the offence it might cause Yohn Royce, if he had to do so over the loud objections of his newly appointed Head Ranger.

I'm thinking, if Lord Yohn got a raven from his son whining about how Jeor had wanted him to get a bit more experience of the terrain and of the men before taking the lead, while still in the first months of his ranging apprenticeship, only a few months after being awarded the honour of being a ranger of the watch, he might not be mortified. Even if he was, given the lack of men qualified to read, and lead, the situation would very shortly have resolved naturally, to the credit of his house, and hopefully with Waymar taking a command he was better equipped to hold.

Given a choice between being transiently offended because his son was not pushed into a leadership position at the first opportunity, and being unsure if his son was dead or alive, with dead at the hands of a man under him seeming the most likely, I'm sure Bronze Yohn could get over the snub.

But what of Head Ranger Benjen Stark? Where were his pep-talks on having to prove merit and not just being given things because of blood ties then? And where are the procedures that make it easier to trace, harder to lose rangers that venture into the Haunted forest in small sorties. Where were their cage of ravens? The specific blazes that mark which sorty they were, and where they went? The maps, the planned area they intended to scout. What they intended to do if they encountered the wildings, eight armed and seasoned fighters against the three intruding on their home terrain? Honestly, Benjen seems to have let Waymar lose to hunt wildlings the way you might let a dog lose to chase cars. Then we learn from Mance that Benjen had been promoted to Head Ranger not long before the King started for Winterfell.

Really, the increasing number of Rangers going missing since Benjen became Head Ranger, is not inconsistent. In fact, having men go missing on his watch is Benjen's most consistent trait.  Benjen might talk about equality, but his actions show something else. And he is inconsistent above all. Benjen is the kind of person who assures Jon "We could use a man like you on the Wall.” one minute, and then seriously informs him “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”(AGoT, Ch.05 Jon I) the next. He claims Honour as his mistress in one breath, and in the next he advises Jon to father a few bastards of his own before talking about taking no wife, forsaking his family, and fathering no sons.

Benjen claims to have no family, but really, he is Head Ranger because he is a Stark, brother to the Stark in Winterfell, who is the oldest friend and soon to be Hand of the King. Eddard's plan for Winterfell to join the Watch in putting down the pretensions of Mance Rayder once and for all, Benjen's plan to repopulate the Gift with Winterfell men who paid taxes to the Wall, would those plans even be thought of if Benjen was not a Stark?

It is interesting that the person appointing Benjen to the honour due to bloodlines rather than politics is Jeor Mormont. He only joined the watch that summer, to atone for his son failing to give the wall a tithe of poachers, and disgracing the honour of his House in the eyes of his liege-lord. His oath, forsaking both his son and his Lordship of Bear Island, to serve the realm, is highly symbolic.

The decline of the watch seems to have been going on long before he joined it, although in the time since he has been voted Lord Commander, Jeor doesn't seem to have done much to reverse it. Or perhaps he thought that currying the favour of the old noble houses that had previously supported them, like Stark and Royce and Lannister, was the way to reverse that decline.

If it is that, Benjen is not on the same page as Mormont. He is only going to curry the favour of the Starks and their friends. And he is not a competent trek leader, let alone a competent Head Ranger. His inconsistency again - he can't say no to the King's brother when Tyrion takes the opportunity to visit the wall. However, having undertaken to escort an inexperienced trekker with special needs and inadequate clothing into isolated and difficult terrain, he makes up for that imprudent decision by being counter-productively curt and unpleasant to his guest, by pushing Tyrion's  stamina in the pace he sets for the party in the first week, and worst of all, by his apparent indifference to whether his guest keeps up with the party or the Others take him hindermost.

The fast pace at the start of their journey puzzles me. When Jon finds Robb to make his goodbyes, Robb tells him that Benjen is waiting for him and wants to be off pronto. No time for Jon to say goodbye to his sisters, or his father who are leaving Winterfell at the same time. What is Benjen's excuse? What is his hurry? I can see the convenience of getting his smaller party on their way north before the frenzy and confusion of the southward party saddling up and making their way to the gates, but I can also see the policy in taking his leave of the King and his party, using their departure and Tyrion's relationship with them as well as his with Eddard, to get one last audience with the King for the Watch. Was he annoyed that Eddard dismissed his plan to populate the gift as 'a dream for spring'? Was he frustrated in his attempts to gain the King's ear? (but if he was, why take that out on Tyrion, who could potentially get him that.)

Their next rendezvous is with Yoren, a week later. They could have travelled a half-hour longer that day, or get up a half-hour earlier the next, to make up for the late start. At the very least Benjen could have made sure that Jon, as well as Tyrion, Jyck, and Morrec, knew at least 24 hours earlier the exact hour they were to assemble, and the exact assembly point. allowing half an hour for dealing with skittish horses and so on, but making it clear they must be there (or miss out on the trip) at there would be no time for running errands and saying goodbyes in the morning, that must all be done the day before. So he starts the expedition by spending over an hour looking for his missing team member,, keeping Lannister waiting, leaves with all his horses in the confusion of the King's departure and has to make up the time anyway. Way to go Benjen.

Maybe there is more to this haste than a desire to snub a Lannister. Tyrion's imagination is very lively where snubs are concerned, and Jon also notices that "Up here, the genial Benjen Stark he had known became a different person."(AGoT, Ch.19 Jon III) An curt, aloof and more sweary person who has no time for boys and civilians, spends his time with the officers, and seems willing to abandon even his blood nephew. Eddard put his 

Still, the snub to Lannister in "Jon, damn it, don’t go off like that by yourself. I thought the Others had gotten you.” is clear enough. Quite apart from the fact that he has apparently spent all the time he felt concern for Jon's absence searching his humpy for him, Benjen should be aware that Lannister is both his weakest link and his glittering prize. He can't afford to let Lannister wander off accompanied only by a book and skins of bear and wine. Even if he were truly under foot and in the way, a smart team leader would make a point of finding things that Lannister must do with at least one other team member to make and break camp, if only to prevent him wandering off by himself. Keeping track of the whole team is his job, and he seems to be doing everything in his power to ensure there is no attempt at keeping the team together, now there are no roofs to shelter under and they are thrown back onto their own resources. Worse, he seems to be fracturing the team: men of the Night's Watch are setting up humpys and watering horses, servants of Lannister preparing the the food. The boys from the Fingers are making themselves useful under Yoren, who has found time to trap a squirrel, so presumably they were collecting firewood after assisting with the shelters and watering the horses. Yoren is doing what he can to keep the common folk acting as a team, but he won't tell the Lordling Lannister what to do and those of the Stark blood are free to wander idly off on their own, or retire to their humpy as the mood takes them. Stark, who should be keeping the team in action, is in his humpy, letting the situation drift, and has apparently been making a habit of that, allowing Tyrion to get into the dangerous routine of toddling away by himself with a book and a few wines when things are busy and it is growing dark, and nobody knows for sure which way he went, or how long he has been gone, or when he intended to come back or if he had lost his way. 

Benjen is stupid. Even if Tyrion was a nobody, if he trips over a root and sprains an ankle, if he is bitten by a wolf, if his chapped thighs get infected, these things that would be no big deal with a castle and maesters an easy distance away, become dangerous, and even deadly time and resource sinks, when a group has only their own resources to rely on. Even (in fact, especially) wandering off in the late afternoon in that rugged isolated place, has the potential for a diaster - a night where the whole team are out looking for the missing person, tripping over things, losing their own way, becoming hypothermic themselves. Or maybe waiting until the morning, and then finding themselves forced to choose to leave when he doesn't show, or stay until they find him or his body. If there is still a body to find.

And Tyrion isn't a nobody. If he gets drunk and drowns, with direwolf bite marks on his person, if he goes missing while with the Starks and nobody knows exactly where or what happened to him, if his small size and insufficient bedclothes mean he freezes to death in the night, there will be hell to pay. As in "Lord Tywin Lannister cared not a fig for his deformed son, but he tolerated no slights on the honor of his House."(AGoT, Ch.31 Tyrion IV) and also as in "Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do."(AGoT, Ch.33 Eddard VIII)

Having taken on this difficult guest, a competent Head Ranger would have made it his business to look after Tyrion for the sake of the team, an astute politician for the sake of the honour of his House, a Black Brother for the sake of the Order and the realm. But Benjen is apparently too partisan to do anything at all, and too self absorbed to even keep an eye out for his nephew, like an affectionate uncle.

Tyrion does a better job at building relationships. He wins Jon over (if not Ghost), and Yoren. Also, for all the Lannister pride, Tyrion and Morrec have the kind of seamless relationship that renders words superfluous, as Benjen has with Yoren. Tyrion also builds a bond with Yoren. When Yoren comes to Eddard to tell his tale, he claims to be motivated by love of Benjen, but he might also be motivated by I doubt he learnt that from his father, although both Tywin and Jaime share his gift for knowing their men. Cersei isn't so great at that, but then, Robert, who has the Octavian gift of inspiring loyalty in former foes, and marshalling forces, is not so great at knowing his men, and is generally a bad boss in peacetime.  

Donal Noye's remonstrance really does seem to be the first time anyone has had the nerve or felt the inclination to call out Jon for being a bully, rather than excusing him as a natural underdog. At Wintefell his discourtesies, sullenness, and jealousies are regarded (at least by guests) as the natural humours of a bastard, and the idea that he is privileged seems laughable. Noye is the first to associate his sense of entitlement and desire to command, to his willingness to manipulate and bend others to his will by fair means or foul.

His redemption relies a lot on the good will of the people who had been on the receiving end of his behaviour. Grenn and Pyp are willing to believe they copped a hiding because Jon was so concerned about his little brother back in Winterfell. Halder is stronger than Pyp and smarter than Grenn, he is not so quick to be the bullies best friend just because he got a bit of news from his privileged and powerful family that clearly have not disowned him and have excellent Raven-net access. Rast and Albett, who knew him first, know him too well to trust NewJon, Rast also has the audacity to openly defy Jon, so OldJon comes back with his new friends and Ghost jumps on the boy's chest and bites his throat, drawing blood. I'm not sure I would classify that as an end to Jon's bullying, or a lesson learnt.

Jon gets away with it in that instance, because Rast is piked by a wildling and dies. Halder and Albett go to the builders, no doubt glad to put some space between themselves and a high-needs friend like Jon. Toad also seems to harbour some reservations about his good mate Jon. Cuger and Jeren might too.

Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Bowen Marsh are none of these, but (like Caesar) this proved a lesson Jon could not afford to only half-learn.

Quote

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

(ADwD, Ch.69 Jon XIII)

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5 hours ago, leonardof said:

I don't believe the Starks held those holdfasts themselves. A household knight that becomes responsible for a holdfast, its garrison and the land around it is no longer a household knight, but really a landed knight. That's just a diminutive of being a lord. Of course, because in the North people don't hold the Seven, there are few knights, so maybe "landed officer" would be more fitting.

Not quite.

Landed knights, like Osgrey, Clegane, Templeton, Connington, Spottswood... have legal hereditary right to the specific lands.

Compare appointed commanders like Knight of Bloody Gate and the commander of Moon Gate on Vale. These are appointed, nonhereditary posts. Like the post of Commander of Gold Cloaks (but unlike the Commander of Kingsguard) these do not require celibacy... but do not entitle sons to father´s office.

Starks could, in wartime, mobilize 20 000 men - but as Cat explained to Robb, these men would follow Robb, but not forever. They were not permanently employed guards... which the 200 guards of Winterfell were.

Same applies to lords bannermen. They had their own ancestral lands and castles - they might serve Stark when called to service, but they expected to go home when emergency passes, and they also had their own homes and lands to defend.

It would have been highly desirable for Stark to have at least some pool of officers/commanders who were in full time service - who could be reassigned to other duties when needed by opening of another front, or vacancy of another post.

Rodrik Cassel fit that bill. Who else?

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Not quite.

Landed knights, like Osgrey, Clegane, Templeton, Connington, Spottswood... have legal hereditary right to the specific lands.

Compare appointed commanders like Knight of Bloody Gate and the commander of Moon Gate on Vale. These are appointed, nonhereditary posts. Like the post of Commander of Gold Cloaks (but unlike the Commander of Kingsguard) these do not require celibacy... but do not entitle sons to father´s office.

Starks could, in wartime, mobilize 20 000 men - but as Cat explained to Robb, these men would follow Robb, but not forever. They were not permanently employed guards... which the 200 guards of Winterfell were.

Same applies to lords bannermen. They had their own ancestral lands and castles - they might serve Stark when called to service, but they expected to go home when emergency passes, and they also had their own homes and lands to defend.

It would have been highly desirable for Stark to have at least some pool of officers/commanders who were in full time service - who could be reassigned to other duties when needed by opening of another front, or vacancy of another post.

Rodrik Cassel fit that bill. Who else?

Jory Cassel who is, I would guess, groomed by his father to continue the family's service to House Stark.

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23 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think everything moved too quick for Eddard Stark, as he said he was never meant to be Lord of Winterfell it was to be Brandon. I mean Robb was what almost 15 and it seems like Ned hadn't even considering who he would marry him too. How long was he going wait with Robb his heir? I'm not saying he needed to be married at 15 but him and Cat should have at least had a list narrowed down to who would be his best options.

I don't think Ned put too much thought into Robb ruling or what Jon was going to do as he saw them as children still. With a long winter coming to the North it would have been wise of Ned to have had a wife chosen for Robb unless he wanted to wait until winter ended which could have been a decade for all he knew.

Edmure was unwed and unengaged, too, and he was 25. Of which Hoster had been seriously ill only for a year or two.

But a Warden of North needs to potentially fight wars on several fronts. When Raymun Redbeard invaded, Jolly Jack Musgood was late, and the defending armies of North were led by Lord Harmond Umber... and two Starks. Lord Willam, and his brother Artos.

Eddard saw trouble brewing in North, as King beyond Wall. Plus a possibility of trouble in South and East.

Starks need low level officers - to command holdfasts. They also need generals - someone who could reinforce Wall when Lord is called South, or vice versa. Someone who could be taken seriously when negotiating on behalf of House Stark and promising rewards for help.

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23 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Edmure was unwed and unengaged, too, and he was 25. Of which Hoster had been seriously ill only for a year or two.

But a Warden of North needs to potentially fight wars on several fronts. When Raymun Redbeard invaded, Jolly Jack Musgood was late, and the defending armies of North were led by Lord Harmond Umber... and two Starks. Lord Willam, and his brother Artos.

Eddard saw trouble brewing in North, as King beyond Wall. Plus a possibility of trouble in South and East.

Starks need low level officers - to command holdfasts. They also need generals - someone who could reinforce Wall when Lord is called South, or vice versa. Someone who could be taken seriously when negotiating on behalf of House Stark and promising rewards for help.

All the more reason for Robb to be married and for him to have children of his own. With all the wars coming Ned should have been looking to secure his legacy and House Stark like Tywin would have. Say Ned has to go to the Wall to fight Mance and doesn't come back or he goes South and doesn't come back. Robb would be the Lord of Winterfell with no marriage to a proper bride. We all saw what happened when Robb had to go South unwed, it lead to his undoing. If he would have already been married or even betrothed Walder Frey couldn't have demanded a marriage.

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