Sweetrobin = Bloodraven, Jr.? Or Bran II?

[Seams]

19 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The only other Mya in universe is a full blooded sister of Bloodraven, doubt that's a coincidence.

BR and Mya are both stubborn characters and have both been denied marriage to their lovers. I think it will end up being foreshadowing, that the result of Mya and Mychel will foreshadow what occurred or is occurring or will occur between BR and Shiera, and that SR (and by proximity Sansa) will be effected by Mya's state in a manner that foreshadows how Bran will be effected by BR's.

Perhaps Mya will do something vindictive against Mychel or more likely Horton Redfort or Ysilla Royce, and that there will be catastrophic fallout for SR/Sansa. All in parallel to how BR warred and killed Bittersteel and the realm bled.

And maybe there's a potential parallel between how BR is teaching Bran to fly and Mya is responsible (his guide) for SR when descending or ascending the Giant's Lance.

I noticed that other Mya, too! Interesting parallel. I wonder whether Robert's daughter Mya Stone might be a granddaughter of Mya Rivers? In which case she would have stronger Targaryen heritage than her own father had.

Mya Stone seems to be hurt, maybe even bitter, about her broken love affair and about Robert abandoning her after bonding with her initially, but I haven't picked up clues that she will be vindictive. Her antidote to disappointment is to devote herself to the mountain - she is the mountain's daughter, she says. I really hope she finds a lover worthy of her - she is a likable character and I want her to have a happy ending.

Sweetrobin is very possessive about Alayne / Sansa, even though he's a little kid. He may have a very bad response if / when Alayne's betrothal to Harry is announced. Maybe he will team up with Myranda to try to undermine that betrothal - Sweetrobin could then represent both Bloodraven (through the parallels already identified in this post) and Bittersteel (as the ally of Myranda / Barbra Bracken), in a way. He has already indicated that he likes both Alayne and Myranda (but he thinks that Mya smells like mules).

Mya is in charge of mules, and mules are the offspring of a horse and donkey. There is a passage where Dolorous Edd talks about mules, and he says he is not the father of the mules even though he looks like a horse. (I shared some thoughts about it on another thread.) If Edd is a symbolic version of Ned Stark, and Mya is a representative of King Robert, the mule association seems to relate to these two key characters and their supposed bastard children. Sweetrobin doesn't like mules because one bit him. (Although he chooses one with a chewed-off ear - maybe he will end up with Myrcella?) Myranda doesn't like mules because they are too skinny and uncomfortable to sit on. Alayne / Sansa trusts Mya's mule to keep her from falling. So the two "highborn" people view mules with disdain, but the "natural daughter," Alayne, takes a favorable view of mules and of the function they perform.

[Victor Newman]

Maybe Bran will die and Robin will take his place.  He already has his own weir chair. 

[Praetor Xyn]

There are definitely parallels, and one of my favorite theories, crackpot though it be, is that spirits of the COTF residing in his weirwood throne are trying to possess him and causing his seizures, which would be delicious irony given that people originally thought seizures were a sign of possession in our world.

He is also referred to as weak, sickly, other such adjectives and his dying soon is taken as a given, which means that in our story he's practically invincible knowing GRRM's writing style.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Mya Stone seems to be hurt, maybe even bitter, about her broken love affair and about Robert abandoning her after bonding with her initially, but I haven't picked up clues that she will be vindictive.

Nothing of vindictive yet, but its a point that she's not letting it go, she's not moving on. Now do something like put Ysilla or Horton in Mya's hands to go up the Eyrie in what'd already be presumed a perilous journey and Mya's thoughts might get interesting. She is a very bold girl.

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

There are definitely parallels, and one of my favorite theories, crackpot though it be, is that spirits of the COTF residing in his weirwood throne are trying to possess him and causing his seizures, which would be delicious irony given that people originally thought seizures were a sign of possession in our world.

He is also referred to as weak, sickly, other such adjectives and his dying soon is taken as a given, which means that in our story he's practically invincible knowing GRRM's writing style.

All sounds probable enough for me. I can't make up my mind about that weirwood throne though - is it 'active' or not? It looks very much like a cultural artifact. The Vale people have a long memory for the old ways (Bronze Yohn's runes) - they might have tried to recreate the greenseer on his weirwood throne, but have no real idea what the reality is like. So their version is sophisticated, but inert.

It's still possible SR has some First Men gifts though. I very much doubt that Lysa ever allowed him near any dogs or other pets (too dangerous!). When Jon Arryn died, she gave away his personal falcon to the singer - I'm convinced that was to prevent SR inheriting it. But if he finds that falcon again, it might trigger a lot of changes. If the connection is strong, it might help him heal, the same way Summer helped Bran.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

All sounds probable enough for me. I can't make up my mind about that weirwood throne though - is it 'active' or not? It looks very much like a cultural artifact. The Vale people have a long memory for the old ways (Bronze Yohn's runes) - they might have tried to recreate the greenseer on his weirwood throne, but have no real idea what the reality is like. So their version is sophisticated, but inert.

It's still possible SR has some First Men gifts though. I very much doubt that Lysa ever allowed him near any dogs or other pets (too dangerous!). When Jon Arryn died, she gave away his personal falcon to the singer - I'm convinced that was to prevent SR inheriting it. But if he finds that falcon again, it might trigger a lot of changes. If the connection is strong, it might help him heal, the same way Summer helped Bran.

Oh, the falcon. I like it!

SR could mirror Peremore the Twisted http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Peremore_Hightower

[Praetor Xyn]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

All sounds probable enough for me. I can't make up my mind about that weirwood throne though - is it 'active' or not? It looks very much like a cultural artifact. The Vale people have a long memory for the old ways (Bronze Yohn's runes) - they might have tried to recreate the greenseer on his weirwood throne, but have no real idea what the reality is like. So their version is sophisticated, but inert.

It's still possible SR has some First Men gifts though. I very much doubt that Lysa ever allowed him near any dogs or other pets (too dangerous!). When Jon Arryn died, she gave away his personal falcon to the singer - I'm convinced that was to prevent SR inheriting it. But if he finds that falcon again, it might trigger a lot of changes. If the connection is strong, it might help him heal, the same way Summer helped Bran.

I like your theory about the falcon. Of course when I think about Wargs I can't help but think about the Witted in Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings, which I know GRRM is a huge fan of as he called Hobb's work diamonds in a sea of zircons.

[ravenous reader]

On 5/2/2017 at 5:28 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

On 5/1/2017 at 5:43 PM, ravenous reader said:

that makes the infantilized Sweetrobin a symbolic dagger and Lightbringer embodiment

Would you suggest that he could be the "element" who could deliver Sansa from LF's mists and cold eyes ? 

Yes, indeed.  As you yourself have highlighted, a very important function or purpose of the 'Lightbringer' is as a 'slayer of lies' -- and who is a bigger liar than mocking mothman Littlefinger himself?!

In his stubborn insistence on expressing the truth of his own vision, Robert (Sweetrobin) potentially presents a formidable counterpoint to his father (Sweetpetyr) who is in the business of squashing all other narratives besides his own. Robert reminds me of that kid who exposed the lie no one else was willing to deny, by blurting out the unfiltered truth that the 'Emperor has no clothes'!  An emperor with no clothes would basically be akin to Littlefinger stripped of his masks, seen in the glaring light of day.

In the text, lying is linked to being asleep; reciprocally, the truth with 'awakening the sleepers' -- another vital Lightbringing function.  'Awakening the sleepers' is also associated with rudely sounding the horn at inconvenient hours; therefore, it's significant that Robert has a high-pitched whiny voice that is impossible to ignore, and that he is the only one in the Eyrie willing to acknowledge the suppressed song of the singer scapegoated by the real criminal Littlefinger, followed by the cover-up perpetrated by him and his complacent complicit sidekick Sansa.  Sansa, who is also frequently described as being asleep, is annoyed by the intrusive piping tones of both Robert and Marillion which disturb her (sweet) sleep, and threaten to awaken her from her convenient slumber of self-deception.  Accordingly, it becomes imperative to accuse her cousin of being deranged and aggressively up the dose of his euphemistic 'sweetsleep' in order to shut out the nagging voice of her own conscience.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."

"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep. "Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing." What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . "Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."

"Very well." They paused at the foot of the stairs. "But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer."

Ironically, Sansa is under the influence of 'sweetsleep' herself, figuratively speaking.  She's the victim of her own 'killing words.'

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

"No, it wasn't a dream." Tears filled his eyes. "Marillion was singing again. Your father says he's dead, but he isn't."

"He is." It frightened her to hear him talk like this. Bad enough that he is small and sickly, what if he is mad as well? "Sweetrobin, he is. Marillion loved your lady mother too much and could not live with what he'd done to her, so he walked into the sky." Alayne had not seen the body, no more than Robert had, but she did not doubt the fact of the singer's death. "He's gone, truly."

"But I hear him every night. Even when I close the shutters and put a pillow on my head. Your father should have cut his tongue out. I told him to, but he wouldn't."

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

That night the dead man sang "The Day They Hanged Black Robin," "The Mother's Tears," and "The Rains of Castamere." Then he stopped for a while, but just as Sansa began to drift off he started to play again. He sang "Six Sorrows," "Fallen Leaves," and "Alysanne." Such sad songs, she thought. When she closed her eyes she could see him in his sky cell, huddled in a corner away from the cold black sky, crouched beneath a fur with his woodharp cradled against his chest. I must not pity him, she told herself. He was vain and cruel, and soon he will be dead. She could not save him. And why should she want to? Marillion tried to rape her, and Petyr had saved her life not once but twice. Some lies you have to tell. Lies had been all that kept her alive in King's Landing. If she had not lied to Joffrey, his Kingsguard would have beat her bloody.

After "Alysanne" the singer stopped again, long enough for Sansa to snatch an hour's rest. But as the first light of dawn was prying at her shutters, she heard the soft strains of "On a Misty Morn" drifting up from below, and woke at once. That was more properly a woman's song, a lament sung by a mother on the dawn after some terrible battle, as she searches amongst the dead for the body of her only son. The mother sings her grief for her dead son, Sansa thought, but Marillion grieves for his fingers, for his eyes. The words rose like arrows and pierced her in the darkness.

The last sentence evokes the Night's Watch vow ('the words') and the key to unlocking the Black Gate, 'I am the sword,' spoken by a brother of the Night's Watch who is 'true'.  Lightbringer the person is the embodiment of a sword and, in my concept, a 'killing word.'  'Killing words' can take the form of either lies or slayers of lies.  Paradoxically, only one 'killing word' can defeat another, just as the antidote to any toxin is usually another toxin.  If Robin does not succumb to the sweetsleep and can successfully be weaned from its and Littlefinger's toxic influence, he is likely to pose as dangerous a threat in future as that other 'weaned on venom', Darkstar.

Gloubie, I also think the drama being played out here reiterates the pattern we've identified of the trio, in which two greenseer figures (whom I've termed the 'trickster' and the 'dupe' -- both fools) fiercely vie for the possession of the third figure (whom I've termed the 'prize'), usually a desired woman (like Sansa here torn between the competing demands of the father and son), but also potentially a skinchanging host (like Varamyr and his 'father' Haggon fighting over the wolf).

At the end, I think Robert will prevail over his father, finally fulfilling his lifelong quest 'to make the bad man fly'.  After all, that 'seed is strong'!

(P.S.  Do you think there might be a wordplay on 'Lightbringer' with 'Littlefinger'..? Just a side thought. )

[GloubieBoulga]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

(P.S.  Do you think there might be a pun on 'Lightbringer' with 'Littlefinger'...?  Just a side thought.  

I never thought about it, but there is obviously a link between daggers and Littlefinger, throw Catelyn's chapters essentialy (and in her chapters, you find also the association between the dagger and the dawn). 

About Sweetrobin, I had read an interesting suggestion in the french forum, which explained that Lysa's soul was trying to talk to Robert (Sweetrobin) throw Marillion's voice, even after the Marillion's supposed death. I had another idea (but I'm no more sure about it) too : Marillion wasn't dead but hidden somewhere not too far from Robert, and was forced by LF to sing for make him more hill and fool, and consequently make him drink more sweetsleep.

As an ancient maiden fooled by LF, the idea of Lysa's spirit remaining and looking for revenge makes sense. In fact, LF has debts toward 3 women : Catelyn, Lysa and Sansa. 

 

23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Gloubie, I also think the drama being played out here reiterates the pattern we've identified of the trio, in which two greenseer figures (whom I've termed the 'trickster' and the 'dupe' -- both fools) fiercely vie for the possession of the third (whom I've termed the 'prize'), usually a desired woman (like Sansa here torn between the competing demands of the father and son), but also potentially a skinchanging host (like Varamyr and his 'father' Haggon fighting over the wolf).

Yes, you must be right with the 2 greenseers. I was stayed with 1 greenseer and 1 skinchanger, but the 2 greenseers match well. I recently found that the "dupe" (and officialy bastard one) could be the giant too. The giant finally killed by a bird and his songs/words. Robert and Tyrion are both associated with giants, and the Vale is also identificated with the Giant's Lance. 

(I really wonder now what will happen with Robert Strong and Cersei : for me they are a new tandem where Robert Strong has replaced Jaime, but I don't developp here, because it's out of subject)

[Seams]

On 5/2/2017 at 7:28 PM, Seams said:

I noticed that other Mya, too! Interesting parallel. I wonder whether Robert's daughter Mya Stone might be a granddaughter of Mya Rivers? In which case she would have stronger Targaryen heritage than her own father had.

Mya Stone seems to be hurt, maybe even bitter, about her broken love affair and about Robert abandoning her after bonding with her initially, but I haven't picked up clues that she will be vindictive. Her antidote to disappointment is to devote herself to the mountain - she is the mountain's daughter, she says. I really hope she finds a lover worthy of her - she is a likable character and I want her to have a happy ending.

Sweetrobin is very possessive about Alayne / Sansa, even though he's a little kid. He may have a very bad response if / when Alayne's betrothal to Harry is announced. Maybe he will team up with Myranda to try to undermine that betrothal - Sweetrobin could then represent both Bloodraven (through the parallels already identified in this post) and Bittersteel (as the ally of Myranda / Barbra Bracken), in a way. He has already indicated that he likes both Alayne and Myranda (but he thinks that Mya smells like mules).

Mya is in charge of mules, and mules are the offspring of a horse and donkey. There is a passage where Dolorous Edd talks about mules, and he says he is not the father of the mules even though he looks like a horse. (I shared some thoughts about it on another thread.) If Edd is a symbolic version of Ned Stark, and Mya is a representative of King Robert, the mule association seems to relate to these two key characters and their supposed bastard children. Sweetrobin doesn't like mules because one bit him. (Although he chooses one with a chewed-off ear - maybe he will end up with Myrcella?) Myranda doesn't like mules because they are too skinny and uncomfortable to sit on. Alayne / Sansa trusts Mya's mule to keep her from falling. So the two "highborn" people view mules with disdain, but the "natural daughter," Alayne, takes a favorable view of mules and of the function they perform.

I had a new thought about the mule = bastard symbolism. What if, in addition to Bloodraven, Sweetrobin also symbolizes Mad King Aerys?

Sweetrobin dislikes mules because one bit him; Aerys dislikes Lannisters because one stabbed him to death. (The one-eared mule might represent Myrcella, also a bastard although that status is not acknowledged in the first five books.)

Sweetrobin likes Alayne / Sansa, who represents Aery's favorite mistress, Missy Blackwood. He nuzzles her breasts as they descend the mountain.

Sweetrobin also likes Myranda Royce, who represents Barbra/Bethany Bracken. We haven't seen him nuzzle her breasts, but maybe that will happen in the future.

Sweetrobin also dislikes Mya Stone because she smells of mules. Mya is Robert Baratheon's daughter. Robert was a key player in what came to be known as Robert's Rebellion, leading to the regicide of Aerys.

And Sweetrobin just seems a bit unhinged, which fits with what we have been told of the Mad King.

[sweetsunray]

I certainly agree that Sweetrobin and Bran are paralleled, and I suspect Tommen is another parallel. They are the Young Sweet Horus to me. While Robb and Joffrey are the King Horuses (and historical Djet), and Rickon is the baby/hunter Horus merging into Anubis.

• The flying: Bran and SR, maybe deadly real for Tommen in tWoW (?).
• All three almost of an age
• the breastfeeding of sons: we see Lysa doing it, Catelyn remembers breastfeeding Robb and Rickon, Cersei remembers or is remembered as breastfeeding Tommen
• worrying over their safety and well-being and against possible assassination: Bran's climbing, falling and the catspaw attempt; Lysa not wanting to part with SR, Cersei worrying about Tommen wearing warm enough clothes, panicking when he coughs
• and then some typical symbolism for Horus: the "Wadjet eye" (green eye) for Bran, the "falcon" for SR

And this continues into typical aSoIaF symbolism with the weirwood thrones, idealisation of knighthood and wanting to be one, scenery description as mentioned in the OP, mini-avalanche event for Bran before finding safety within the cave, while there are ill-fated signs for a real avalanche occurring in the Vale, and maybe the "Mountain" falls on top of Tommen.

I don't think they are more than parallels, only Bran is the Young Horus that will survive imo. I don't think SR is a greenseer, and certainly Tommen won't be, despite his affections for his sigil animals - cats (lions are cats right?). The parallels make the theme about them universal. All these mothers share the same worries, even if they handle it differently or are very different in nature. All these boys share aspirations, affections, fears, hopes and dreams, though they have different sigils, talents, survival chances. The major difference with such parallels is the POV we get with it. We have both Bran's and Cat's POV in that Isis-Horus relationship. We don't have the POVs of either Lysa and Sweetrobin, but we get reflective POV on Lysa from Cat (about Lysa's over-protectiveness) and from Sansa (how to deal with a boy of that age and his unrealistic desires). And with Cersei we get into the mind of a woman who smothers Tommen, for the most selfish reasons.