NFL 2017 - The Afterdraft

[Week]

53 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So, you don't think wearing pig socks had anything to do with people feeling he hates the police?  Or wearing a Castro T shirt has anything to do with people considering him to be unAmerican?  Or even, dare I suggest that the National Anthem might be considered by many as a really, really poor way of protesting against police brutality, since it's not about the police, but the country?

I think in fact that Kap has done a very, very poor job in terms of articulating what he's protesting and why.

Your lack of willingness to understand his protest and the very real issues of institutional racism by the state as well as police brutality is unAmerican. By all means, let's police socks and focus on the real fucking issues. People with views like yours are why protests like this are necessary.

 

eta- @James Arryn 100%

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, Week said:

Your lack of willingness to understand his protest and the very real issues of institutional racism by the state as well as police brutality is unAmerican. By all means, let's police socks and focus on the real fucking issues. People with views like yours are why protests like this are necessary.

 

eta- @James Arryn 100%

The "real" issue is that you can't conduct a protest on the job, whatever your job may be, whatever the cause you are protesting about, and not expect a possibility of repercussions.  

And, nobody made him wear pig socks, or a Castro T shirt, or forced him to use Twitter.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

So, you don't think wearing pig socks had anything to do with people feeling he hates the police?  Or wearing a Castro T shirt has anything to do with people considering him to be unAmerican?  Or even, dare I suggest that the National Anthem might be considered by many as a really, really poor way of protesting against police brutality, since it's not about the police, but the country?

I think in fact that Kap has done a very, very poor job in terms of articulating what he's protesting and why.

Thanks for proving my point!

[aceluby]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The "real" issue is that you can't conduct a protest on the job, whatever your job may be, whatever the cause you are protesting about, and not expect a possibility of repercussions.  

And, nobody made him wear pig socks, or a Castro T shirt, or forced him to use Twitter.  

The 'real' issue is that you're much more comfortable talking about how his socks and shirts offend you or how unpatriotic he is.  Because that conversation you can have without having to defend your racial bias.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, aceluby said:

The 'real' issue is that you're much more comfortable talking about how his socks and shirts offend you or how unpatriotic he is.  Because that conversation you can have without having to defend your racial bias.

Whatever.  Same old same old.  If someone doesn't agree with something progressive they are a racist/sexist/greedy/hater.  Blah, blah, blah.

I should have known there was no way to have any kind of reasonable conversation.

 

[Week]

7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Whatever.  Same old same old.  If someone doesn't agree with something progressive they are a racist/sexist/greedy/hater.  Blah, blah, blah.

I should have known there was no way to have any kind of reasonable conversation.

James Arryn and Tywin obliged very reasonably. You could have responded to him instead of whining back at ace or me.

[aceluby]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Whatever.  Same old same old.  If someone doesn't agree with something progressive they are a racist/sexist/greedy/hater.  Blah, blah, blah.

I should have known there was no way to have any kind of reasonable conversation.

Didn't you just claim that you didn't know why he was protesting?

Quote

I think in fact that Kap has done a very, very poor job in terms of articulating what he's protesting and why.

But let's talk about his Castro shirt some more!

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, aceluby said:

Didn't you just claim that you didn't know why he was protesting?

But let's talk about his Castro shirt some more!

LOL  Um, no I didn't 'claim' I didn't know why he was protesting.  I said I believed he had done a poor job at communication.   And then I gave you some examples of how his actions have undercut his message.  But, predictably, all I got back was allegations of racial bias, which is per usual.  

Nobody made him wear the Castro shirt.  But he wore it.  And yes, indeed, it takes away from his message, unless his message is really that he considers a failed communist dictator who reduced his country to rubble someone to be admired....maybe he does.  But even if he does admire Castro, wearing a Castro shirt and pig socks and tweeting that cops and slave catchers were the same all of that takes away from his message.  

But, really, you guys carry on without me.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Nobody made him wear the Castro shirt.  But he wore it.  And yes, indeed, it takes away from his message, unless his message is really that he considers a failed communist dictator who reduced his country to rubble someone to be admired....maybe he does.  But even if he does admire Castro, wearing a Castro shirt and pig socks and tweeting that cops and slave catchers were the same all of that takes away from his message.  

But, really, you guys carry on without me.

I'm not sure how that takes away from his message; as far as I can tell that is, indeed, his actual message. Now, what I think you mean is it takes away from your sympathizing with his message, and that might be fair - but Kaep has been pretty consistent on his message and his level of dedication to it. 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I'm not sure how that takes away from his message; as far as I can tell that is, indeed, his actual message. Now, what I think you mean is it takes away from your sympathizing with his message, and that might be fair - but Kaep has been pretty consistent on his message and his level of dedication to it. 

What does Fidel Castro have to do with problems with American policing of minority communities?  Perhaps I missed something.  Or is Kap also advocating for communism?  

[James Arryn]

On a broader level, especially with regards to the recurring themes in US and UK political activity at present, we need to find a way to address people who consistently make arguments er, concurrent with the arguments racists/bigots are making without self-identifying as bigots. The stock answer of not agreeing with being dismissed as racist, while guilty of abjuring all accountability for that concurrence, is serving as a conversation graveyard. Whether or not the person saying it is a bigot and/or knows they are a bigot, the fact that this dead-end is used so much means we need to find another avenue.

I guess we could start by appealing to the better angels of the 'bigotry correspondents'. How does it feel to so often be adopting the same side as the extreme sheet-as-fashion folk? Do you tell yourself it's just a coincidence that keeps coincidenting? Does it come from or lead to moments of introspection, of moral or ethical inventory taking, or is that better left undone? 

For example, Cas Stark, honest question, you say Kaep is doing a poor job of communicating his message...so have you listened to it? He calmly and by all accounts fairly eloquently discusses his pov in videos found all over YouTube. They're somewhat lengthy, when contrasted with sound bytes or memes, but in that you take issue with what he's saying and how he's saying it, I'm assuming you've listened to him doing so, right?

If so, please tell me where you feel he's off. I actually do disagree with him slightly on a couple of points he makes, so I am willing to entertain alternate takes, including yours.

If not, though...if you haven't listened to him actually make his actual points, and are rather relying on socks and w/e an unAmerucan t-shirt is, can you re-read your own summary of the issue with his message without tremors of self-doubt? 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

What does Fidel Castro have to do with problems with American policing of minority communities?  Perhaps I missed something.  Or is Kap also advocating for communism?  

He's advocating for revolution, wearing a famous revolutionary who was against capitalist systems, especially the US. I'm not sure how this is all that hard. The shirt also had Malcolm X on it - someone who advocated direct action against oppressors. Kaep clarified that he supported Castro specifically because he liked universal healthcare and the support of education for all as well. 

Again, you may disagree with it because it makes it hard for you to support it, but that doesn't mean using an icon of one of the most famous revolutionaries in history is particularly unclear. 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

On a broader level, especially with regards to the recurring themes in US and UK political activity at present, we need to find a way to address people who consistently make arguments eh, concurrent with the arguments racists/bigots are making. The stock answer of not agreeing with being dismissed as racist, while guilty of abjuring all accountability for that concurrence, is serving as a conversation graveyard. Whether or not the person saying it is a bigot and/or knows they are a bigot, the fact that this dead-end is used so much means we need to find another avenue.

I guess we could start by appealing to the better angels of the 'bigotry correspondents'. How does it feel to so often be adopting the same side as the extreme sheet-as-fashion folk? Do you tell yourself it's just a coincidence that keeps coincidenting? Does it come from or lead to moments of introspection, of moral or ethical inventory taking, or is that better left undone? 

For example, Cas Stark, honest question, you say Kaep is doing a poor job of communicating his message...so have you listened to it? He calmly and by all accounts fairly eloquently discusses his pov in videos found all over YouTube. They're somewhat lengthy, when contrasted with sound bytes or memes, but in that you take issue with what he's saying and how he's saying it, I'm assuming you've listened to him doing so, right?

If so, please tell me where you feel he's off. I actually do disagree with him slightly on a couple of points he makes, so I am willing to entertain alternate takes, including yours.

If not, though...if you haven't listened to him actually make his actual points, and are rather relying on socks and w/e an unAmerucan t-shirt is, can you re-read your own summary of the issue with his message without tremors of self-doubt? 

I just did give you several examples, you dismissed them.  If you are running a PR campaign then it's all part of the package.  Yes, indeed, Kap can be articulate, he can speak intelligently and movingly about his beliefs and what he does and doesn't intend.....he can also do stupid things like tweet about police/slave catchers.  Then, it's up to the audience to decide how much weight is given to the symbols he used:  pig socks, slave catcher badges, Castro shirts and how much to give to his more thoughtful statements.  But, this is the position that Kap put himself in.  I did not inject Castro, slave catchers or pig police socks into the discussion.  He did.  Not me.  If these symbols have overshadowed his more positive message this is, again, his fault, his mistake.

However, I disagree with in game political protests to begin with.  I disagree with mingling of sports and politics.  I disagree that the National Anthem was ever going to be a productive symbol for his message. He would have been on much safer ground if he had attended some BLM rallies.  His superstar status would have elevated the coverage and discussion of those protests and without all of the side issue regarding the National Anthem and patriotism and 'distracting from the game'  So, I think the entire symbolism he used was misguided from the start.  

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

He's advocating for revolution, wearing a famous revolutionary who was against capitalist systems, especially the US. I'm not sure how this is all that hard. The shirt also had Malcolm X on it - someone who advocated direct action against oppressors. Kaep clarified that he supported Castro specifically because he liked universal healthcare and the support of education for all as well. 

Again, you may disagree with it because it makes it hard for you to support it, but that doesn't mean using an icon of one of the most famous revolutionaries in history is particularly unclear. 

Okay, so he's advocating for revolution against capitalism and direct action against his capitalistic oppressors.  

And people are wondering why the billionaire boys club NFL isn't hiring him?  Now that is funny.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

On a broader level, especially with regards to the recurring themes in US and UK political activity at present, we need to find a way to address people who consistently make arguments er, concurrent with the arguments racists/bigots are making without self-identifying as bigots. The stock answer of not agreeing with being dismissed as racist, while guilty of abjuring all accountability for that concurrence, is serving as a conversation graveyard. Whether or not the person saying it is a bigot and/or knows they are a bigot, the fact that this dead-end is used so much means we need to find another avenue.

I guess we could start by appealing to the better angels of the 'bigotry correspondents'. How does it feel to so often be adopting the same side as the extreme sheet-as-fashion folk? Do you tell yourself it's just a coincidence that keeps coincidenting? Does it come from or lead to moments of introspection, of moral or ethical inventory taking, or is that better left undone? 

 Agree with all of this. We have to be able to debate the issue without labeling one another racists or bigots right off the jump. That said, I believe much of the reaction that was opposed to Kaepernick's protest was pretty damn bigoted. This was a symbolic protest that took nothing from anybody. It's not like the Anthem wasn't sung. The only person it affected was him. You had many of the same pundits and commentators who decried acts like the Ferguson and Baltimore riots stating that this protest was unacceptable and unamerican, etc etc. If this form of protest is unacceptable, then what form of protest is okay?   

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Okay, so he's advocating for revolution against capitalism and direct action against his capitalistic oppressors.  

And people are wondering why the billionaire boys club NFL isn't hiring him?  Now that is funny.

Yes, I don't think it's very surprising that they're not hiring him. He's directly advocating against the owners for the most part. it is disappointing and sad, but it isn't any more surprising than Damore getting fired from Google. 

The objections as to why they're not hiring him are bullshit cowardice however.

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That is an entirely reasonably solution for my current dilemma, only lunch isn't for another 45 minutes. So I just might have to get stabby. 

Five more minutes. I hope you starve...

[DanteGabriel]

If Kaepernick has somehow failed to explain the logic of his protest, I think it may have something to do with the cognitive abilities of his audience.

Somewhat relatedly, how should Kaepernick have protested? It was a pretty quiet way to use his platform to draw attention to an issue. I keep hearing about how Black Lives Matter protesters are damaging the cause by being loud and disruptive. Comfortable white people will be sympathetic to you if you're not so loud and scary, protesters are told. He literally just sat while other people stood. Then he explained himself in pretty thoughtful, reasoned interviews and donated some money to causes. That's all he did. What a bunch of fragile motherfucking babies to be offended by that. Oh wait, he wore mean socks and a Castro shirt. That's the reason America's most easily triggered snowflakes treat him like a goddamn mass murderer.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

However, I disagree with in game political protests to begin with.  I disagree with mingling of sports and politics. 

Eh, you use your platform, whatever that might be. In his case it happened to be professional sports.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Five more minutes. I hope you starve...

I had two grilled hot links from George's Giant Hamburger. Delish. No one got stabbed. Big win-win all the way around.