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Tyrion is a hypocrite ?


shardofNarsil

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Tyrion hates Tywin for having Tysha raped and kicking her out for marrying him but he himself has no problems raping women.He then goes on to rape Tysha even though he could've refused and if it can be argued that he was forced into raping her by his father then why was he justified in killing Shae .As a lowborn Shae's life was completely at the mercy of lannisters and it is completely plausible that she was forced to commit perjury afterall she doesn't owe any loyalty to Tyrion as whatever Tyrion provided her she had to pay him back with her own body. 

Then at Illyrio's manse he clearly rapes that sex slave and takes joy in inducing fear in her.

Quote

The girl’s mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. 

and

Quote

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

And the girl mentioned here is forced into prostitution and is not like Alayaya who is in it by choice. 

So he hates his father for being responsible for the rape of Tysha on the other hand he actively participates in acts of rape and exploitation, acts which supports the establishment under which girls like Tysha are being exploited daily or does he thinks that those girls deserve it and Tysha didn't ,that would be another thing that he and Tywin has similar views for.Add to that he kills Shae just because she said some things she was forced to say in the trial by Cersei and then goes on to kill his father who did no worse than him and some might say for explainable reasons.This just proves that Tyrion is a vile human being and deserves no sympathy for the acts he commits while being completely able to understand the effect it might have on the affected person.

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Tyrion as GRRM wrote him is antisocial.  The character as brought to life by Peter Dinklage is not -- probably because Dinklage is not antisocial, and is capable of imbuing the role with a certain pathos and vulnerability. 

He killed Shae because he had to eliminate the witnesses to his father's murder (and he kind-of enjoyed the revenge for his miserable existence he extracted from the whore).  It was pure survival at that point (with a little bit of antisocial flair).

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tyrion in a dance of dragons changes alot! I did not like those scenes you mentioned. I think tysha was a different case because she wasn't a whore and he loved her. and I don't think he had a choice in the matter about joining.  Tysha was just a girl who loved him but was common born and then got gang raped because of it. Worse his father made him part of it. I think that bit about him wanting to rape his sister was more bluster for that women he was talking too though he would likely kill her. As for shae that was more about him being pubicly humiliated and her actually bringing it up by calling him "my giant of lannister". I also don't think she truly cared about him and was just with him for money. And seeing her with his father while he was to be executed the next morning would have sent most into a rage. It doesn't excuse what he did just saying.

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1 hour ago, shardofNarsil said:

Tyrion hates Tywin for having Tysha raped and kicking her out for marrying him but he himself has no problems raping women.He then goes on to rape Tysha even though he could've refused and if it can be argued that he was forced into raping her by his father then why was he justified in killing Shae .As a lowborn Shae's life was completely at the mercy of lannisters and it is completely plausible that she was forced to commit perjury afterall she doesn't owe any loyalty to Tyrion as whatever Tyrion provided her she had to pay him back with her own body. 

Then at Illyrio's manse he clearly rapes that sex slave and takes joy in inducing fear in her.

and

And the girl mentioned here is forced into prostitution and is not like Alayaya who is in it by choice. 

So he hates his father for being responsible for the rape of Tysha on the other hand he actively participates in acts of rape and exploitation, acts which supports the establishment under which girls like Tysha are being exploited daily or does he thinks that those girls deserve it and Tysha didn't ,that would be another thing that he and Tywin has similar views for.Add to that he kills Shae just because she said some things she was forced to say in the trial by Cersei and then goes on to kill his father who did no worse than him and some might say for explainable reasons.This just proves that Tyrion is a vile human being and deserves no sympathy for the acts he commits while being completely able to understand the effect it might have on the affected person.

Tyrion is very different pre and post tywin/shae murder. It takes him traveling to slaver's bay and becoming a slave himself to get his priorities straight. 

 

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7 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Tyrion hates Tywin for having Tysha raped and kicking her out for marrying him but he himself has no problems raping women.He then goes on to rape Tysha even though he could've refused and if it can be argued that he was forced into raping her by his father then why was he justified in killing Shae .As a lowborn Shae's life was completely at the mercy of lannisters and it is completely plausible that she was forced to commit perjury afterall she doesn't owe any loyalty to Tyrion as whatever Tyrion provided her she had to pay him back with her own body. 

Then at Illyrio's manse he clearly rapes that sex slave and takes joy in inducing fear in her.

If you recognize Tyrion "taking joy" in anything at all in early chapters of "Dance", then you and me have read two different books. I for one had an impression of a rather unhappy fella.

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10 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

We get it, dude. You hate Tyrion and poor Tywin did nothing wrong. 
There are only so many times you can rehash the same topic. 

This.

Moreover, I find it impossible to classify a consentual, business relationship of whore-to-john as "rape." This ain't the 20th-21st century. Prostitution is a valid profession throughout the world of ice'n'fire. Women may enter it because of economic need, but it's not like today where the 'hos are children who are forced into it. Heck, I programmed computers out of "economic need" - does that make me oppressed? Criminally assaulted? (In all honesty, I loved it...)

And Tyrion always paid in full, probably extra to make up for the fact of being A Lannister (and thus good for it) and an unattractive dwarf. Tywin, as we know, was a genocidal monster - and, it appears, a sexual hypocrite. I cheered his demise on the privy almost as much as I cheered Joffrey's wedding demise. Couldn't have come soon enough.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

This.

Moreover, I find it impossible to classify a consentual, business relationship of whore-to-john as "rape." This ain't the 20th-21st century. Prostitution is a valid profession throughout the world of ice'n'fire. Women may enter it because of economic need, but it's not like today where the 'hos are children who are forced into it. Heck, I programmed computers out of "economic need" - does that make me oppressed? Criminally assaulted? (In all honesty, I loved it...)

And Tyrion always paid in full, probably extra to make up for the fact of being A Lannister (and thus good for it) and an unattractive dwarf. Tywin, as we know, was a genocidal monster - and, it appears, a sexual hypocrite. I cheered his demise on the privy almost as much as I cheered Joffrey's wedding demise. Couldn't have come soon enough.

Didn't I specifically mentioned the part where the girl was a sex slave not a prostitute, she can't just not come to work the next day,she is considered an object and not in the way the modern feminist prattle about but in a will be killed if loses its shine way.

You really are using the word genocidal in a careless manner.

First of all you say that  things such as forcing women into slavery are common in planetos and should be taken as valid for such times, on the other hand you call Tywin a genocidal monster when all his actions were directed towards settling fear into his enemy's hearts and not because he wanted to kill whole of or some segment of the Riverland population. He didn't mind if they lived or dead, he just wanted to end the war with as few casualties on his side as possible and that mate is one of the most basic principles of war and survival in general and one that is practiced even now in the 21st century. He was a man who saw a way to end the war quickly and went for it.

He was no more genocidal than the  Starks or Tully who wouldn't mind if each and every one of the lannister soldier drops dead the next minute if it meant winning a war to regain some honor of a dead Lord.

So he should follow the rules of chivalry so that the two armies meet on the field of battle and die by thousands or use  some shock tactics which is morally reprehensible and inhumane but gives a chance at life for many thousands of soldiers of both sides, who is to decide whether the life of the farmer who ploughs his field is more important than the lives of the soldiers called by their Lord who were farmers themselves but were made to take up spear and stone under the fear of repercussions to them or their families.

We can keep on debating whether the ends justify the means but many men of both sides have him to thanks for their life but was the cost that was paid for this peace too high, there people might disagree.

It really reflects poorly on anyone who compares slavery with programming and is an insult to the forefathers who shed blood of their own countrymen to extinguish it.

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3 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

It really reflects poorly on anyone who compares slavery with programming and is an insult to the forefathers who shed blood of their own countrymen to extinguish it.

I see that you're also dead to humor. It's no wonder you prefer Tywin to Tyrion.

FWIW, we're not all Americans here, and MY forefathers had nothing to do with the defeat of slavery in the American south, nor in perpetrating it - we hadn't yet arrived.

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3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I see that you're also dead to humor. It's no wonder you prefer Tywin to Tyrion.

FWIW, we're not all Americans here, and MY forefathers had nothing to do with the defeat of slavery in the American south, nor in perpetrating it - we hadn't yet arrived.

Is that all you can come up with, ignoring the book itself when confronted with quotes from the imp's chapter. You doesn't seem much interested with confronting the questions related to topic.

inb4 "I don't have time to waste on character discussion like you do,loser."

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7 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If you recognize Tyrion "taking joy" in anything at all in early chapters of "Dance", then you and me have read two different books. I for one had an impression of a rather unhappy fella.

So to sum up -"Tyrion was not in a jolly mood throughout the Dance but he still raped some girls and kill his father before it ,but it is alright because the dwarf was experiencing blues during that time and so all the heinous crimes committed during this period are forgiven."

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11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't remember any instance of Tyrion denouncing rape as an immoral form of punishment. Is there an example?

Never in public  indeed just a few instances of him recalling Tysha and the particular form of punishment she was subjected to and demonstrating pure hatred for the person responsible ,surely it was just a random thought really  minuscule compared to his father forbidding him to visit the Free Cities or the death of his favorite Uncle Gerion.

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13 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

So to sum up

To sum what up? Your strawman?

13 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

-"Tyrion was not in a jolly mood throughout the Dance but he still raped some girls and kill his father before it ,but it is alright because the dwarf was experiencing blues during that time and so all the heinous crimes committed during this period are forgiven."

If I said anything about it "being alright", and that "all crimes are forgiven", you should quote me, and I'll look very silly.

Unless, of course, you can't provide a quote, in which case it's you who will look very silly.

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3 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

To sum what up? Your strawman?

If I said anything about it "being alright", and that "all crimes are forgiven", you should quote me, and I'll look very silly.

Unless, of course, you can't provide a quote, in which case it's you who will look very silly.

So what exactly are your thoughts upon this incident,all you have to say is that he was not happy ,so does that mean you don't find anything wrong with it? Why don'y you clear the air by saying clearly what you think about the incident instead of attacking only a small part of it -"the take joy" part.

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Yes.

Next question.

 

Jokes aside, yes, Tyrion is a hypocrite and a big one, but this particular case isn't a good example of that. Tyrion is a very broken individual and he's been so since he was a kid. Nevertheless, she was somehow ok until Tysha happened. That was what finally turned him into the person we know now.

Now, about what happened in Dance, I'm quite wary of passing moral judgment to literary characters without analyzing the proper background and context. Characters, we're supposed to assume, make a big turn once the story starts, as this is the peak of what they are able to do or be because the story demands them to become characters and not just people. And this is particularly special in ASOIAF case as Martin's characters rather do good or bad things rather than being good or bad themselves (with certain exceptions, of course).

So, in the case of Tyrion, what changes in Dance from what he was before? Pre-ASOIAF Tyrion seems to be quite neutral about prostitutes, even a bit understanding of them. Could it be because he saw Tysha in all of them? Maybe. At the end of Storm, this changes. As Tysha is not longer that whore that was used to trick him but a victim of Tywin, the image he had of whores also changed. She likely stopped seeing Tysha in them, and they become something that he hated, even about himself. His longing for prostitutes was something that wouldn't have happened had he kept Tysha as a wife. As this didn't happen, he turned into a man who paid for women, something that Tywin (hypocritically) hated.

Now, let's also remember a thing. Tyrion was always aware that whores despised him for what he is (or so he thought). I'm sure that any ordinary prostitute would rather have sex with Jaime than with Tyrion, but they can't complain as they're paid to do their job. So, whores were likely always pretending to like and enjoy Tyrion's presence, but they were better at hiding it as he had all the money to pay them to do so. What, imo, Martin intends with this scene in Dance is to portray that what we're seeing is something that happened always but Tyrion deluded himself into believing it wasn't, and all illusions Tyrion had about himself were paid with Tywin's money.

In Dance, Tyrion has no money. The first woman he has is there to show us, the readers, how his feelings about prostitutes have changed and how they really see him: a monster they fear. If he, somehow, used to see Tysha in them, he doesn't do it anymore. He doesn't care about them at all anymore. He's showing them the "real Tyrion". As bad as it seems for the readers, he's giving his first steps away from Tywin's influence, and he needs to learn to accept himself, something he never needed to do because Lannister gold gave him his own identity.

Now, when he's gone to find information with Half-maester, he's given money BY GRIFF. During his time in the Shy Maid, Griff plays the role of being Tyrion's father (as he and the narrative often compare him with Tywin). So, he's repeating the pattern: he's whoring with his father's money because he can't find other ways to find love. His actions against that poor girl show us that he hates himself and hates not being liked women in the way he expected now he's a poor sap. Yet, the narrative punishes him as he gets lost once he disobeys his "father" Griff. It's after going to his old ways that he gets captured by Jorah.

I know it's easier for us readers to see at these two girls and feel sorry for them (because they are deserving of it), but the character here is Tyrion and the focus here is his actions. The two girls are plot points for us to examine and analyze Tyrion's [wrongful] actions and to see his progress as a character, whether the progress is to become more of a villain or becoming heroic. At this point in Dance, Tyrion is at his worst. He will come out of it in the next chapters just like Jaime and Theon did despite all of his wrongful actions.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

inb4 "I don't have time to waste on character discussion like you do,loser."

Well, your interpretations of the book are so off base, it really doesn't do to try and engage you; no point in wasting my time. I must have really stung you badly by suggesting your sense of humor was limited - or was it your affection for Tywin and his ways? In any event, it looks as if you're basically looking for a fight, not a discussion, exchange of opinions, or enlightenment. Have at it. I don't care.

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