Tyrion is a hypocrite ?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

So what exactly are your thoughts

Not so fast, please.

First, that quote I mentioned. Where is it?

[zandru]

8 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Now, about what happened in Dance,

Thanks! This is an excellent discussion of Tyrion's experiences and changes. As you note, it's not useful to try to interpret GRRM's characters as "good" or "evil" - they've all got backstories and experiences that have made and are making them what they are. Tyrion continues to evolve throughout the series. Not always in the way we might like, but hey! If not, we can go and write our own books.

[shardofNarsil]

6 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Not so fast, please.

First, that quote I mentioned. Where is it?

By that quote you mean the quote in which you explicitly condemned Tyrion's actions against the slaves ,then that quote doesn't exist as all you have to say about the incidents is that he wasn't "taking joy" in it  and you so intently refuse to give forward your views for some obscure reason.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 hour ago, shardofNarsil said:

Didn't I specifically mentioned the part where the girl was a sex slave not a prostitute, she can't just not come to work the next day,she is considered an object and not in the way the modern feminist prattle about but in a will be killed if loses its shine way.

You really are using the word genocidal in a careless manner.

 

 

As I pointed out in my previous post, you're making the girl the focus of the analysis when she isn't. She's there to serve a plot, to show us how Tyrion is going down and how abusive his "real" nature is. Had Tyrion just being in a position with a prostitute that could "just not come to work the next day", then the effect isn't the same as she could have said "no", one way to another. Tyrion needed to be with someone who was defenseless.

As much as it sounds "cruel", the characters (all of them), don't exist. We can analyze them without fearing any judgment and entertain their wrong deeds. Liking a character that is portrayed as a "villain" or "immoral" doesn't mean we approve his actions. In the same way, speak on behalf of certain characters that have been abused doesn't necessarily make us more "virtuous" either. Tyrion doing what he did was necessary for his evolution as a character. Passing judgment isn't.

[shardofNarsil]

2 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

As I pointed out in my previous post, you're making the girl the focus of the analysis when she isn't. She's there to serve a plot, to show us how Tyrion is going down and how abusive his "real" nature is. Had Tyrion just being in a position with a prostitute that could "just not come to work the next day", then the effect isn't the same as she could have said "no", one way to another. Tyrion needed to be with someone who was defenseless.

As much as it sounds "cruel", the characters (all of them), don't exist. We can analyze them without fearing any judgment and entertain their wrong deeds. Liking a character that is portrayed as a "villain" or "immoral" doesn't mean we approve his actions. In the same way, speak on behalf of certain characters that have been abused doesn't necessarily make us more "virtuous" either. Tyrion doing what he did was necessary for his evolution as a character. Passing judgment isn't.

So do you agree that the rape of Tysha was the high point of Tywin's character development as well and we should analyze his actions taking in account his own childhood and the shame that his family and house had to face when his father took a whore to the high seat of his mother ,plus the constant disrespect and ridicule that his father inflicted upon himself and his family again remembering that Tywin was only 10-14 yrs old.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

34 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

So do you agree that the rape of Tysha was the high point of Tywin's character development as well and we should analyze his actions taking in account his own childhood and the shame that his family and house had to face when his father took a whore to the high seat of his mother ,plus the constant disrespect and ridicule that his father inflicted upon himself and his family again remembering that Tywin was only 10-14 yrs old.

 

 

 

I don't know exactly what you are asking here... but let's go part by part:

> So do you agree that the rape of Tysha was the high point of Tywin's character development

Dunno if you mean Tyrion or Tywin here, but yes: Tysha being raped is a main high point in the development of both men, as it's crucial to their further relationship and dynamics. Tysha being falsely called a whore meant, for Tyrion, that everything said about him was right: no woman ever would love a dwarf and the only kind of love he could ever have was going to be either 1. paid or 2. arranged by Tywin. This, within time, evolved into Tyrion looking for affection in whores, even if he needed to pay them to pretend they liked him.

> taking in account his own childhood and the shame that his family and house had to face when his father took a whore to the high seat of his mother ,plus the constant disrespect and ridicule that his father inflicted upon himself and his family again remembering that Tywin was only 10-14 yrs old.

One important aspect of ASOIAF is, besides identity and the question of "who am I?", the question of "What should I do?". They both go together because it's what we do what defines us, not what we claim to be.

The reason I called Tyrion a hypocrite in my previous post is because he is: he's the one who claims to have a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things when, in reality, he "loves" the outcasts because he's self-indulging in his own benevolent image. It's later revealed in the text that Tyrion hates the fact he's a cripple, a broken thing, and, as he tells Jon, not so different to a bastard to his father's eyes ("Tyrion is really Aerys' son" theories aside). Tyrion has every way to actually become a benevolent figure of Westeros, someone who does good things for cripples, bastards, and broken things. Yet, he doesn't. It's Jaime the one we later realize has a real soft spot for the people in need. If Tyrion loves the "poor" as a way to make himself bigger, Jaime sees his little brother in all of them, so he wants to actually make their lives better because he knows (probably in a way no other noble knows), how hard is to be an outcast in Westeros.

Nevertheless, Jaime isn't Tyrion's literary parallel. It's Sandor.

Sandor, unlike Tyrion, doesn't belong to a great House. He's noble, but what we could call now "nouveau riche". He's a servant to other Houses and he's treated like their figurative "dog". Unlike Tyrion, Sandor was born "normal" but was later disfigured by his brother (while Tyrion's brother loves him very much and protects him). Despite that, he has to his favor that he's strong and tall. Yet, they are somehow in the same position: they both are seen as lesser beings. While Sandor has his own strength to protect himself, Tyrion has money and a name. In many ways, Tyrion has the advantage.

If there is a point that ties them both is Sansa. While Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was arranged, we know Sansa has feelings for Sandor instead. Why? Because Sandor took the right choices. He needs no money or titles to help and protect those in need, not because he's ordered or because he wants to prove something: it's because he knows it's the right thing to do. He regrets the things he has done. Has Tyrion regretted anything he's done wrong so far? Maybe he does deep inside, but he hasn't had the epiphany Sandor had when he was facing death.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Martin often puts characters in similar positions because he wants us to realize that all you need is to take the right choices despite your personal situation. Jaime is Tywin's favorite son, but do you see him doing what he did to his grandfather's mistress? Would Ned? Would Arryn? Would Hoster? Tywin had choices.  He could have simply sent that woman away and with enough money to never come back. He didn't want to get rid of him, he wanted to make a statement of what happens to those who humiliate his House. For Tywin, the biggest trauma comes not from being burned by your brother, or for having your beloved wife raped, or for losing his hand. It comes from being insulted. He rules by and with fear because he can't exercise authority in any other way. He loves to project an image that causes fear (unlike Jaime and Tyrion. Tyrion at least "tries" to be good) so he needs to cause as many fear as he can, despite his talk of "being merciful when it's needed". What's a better moment to be merciful than to show mercy to innocent women? Tywin had choices. He's probably the character who has more choices in the books. Yet, he chose to be an asshole. There is nothing for us to feel sorry about him.

 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, shardofNarsil said:

By that quote you mean the quote in which you explicitly condemned Tyrion's actions against the slaves ,then that quote doesn't exist as all you have to say about the incidents is that he wasn't "taking joy" in it  and you so intently refuse to give forward your views for some obscure reason.

Oh, no, that's no trouble at all, even though that was not that long time ago and you shouldn't have forgotten already, I'll gladly repeat it for your convenience:

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If I said anything about it "being alright", and that "all crimes are forgiven", you should quote me, and I'll look very silly.

Unless, of course, you can't provide a quote, in which case it's you who will look very silly.

To sum it up: you made a false claim about me, and, caught on a lie, refuse to accept responsibility for your words. That is not particularly cool, man.
Plus - as foretold - it does make you look very silly. Especially since your line of defense seems to invoke your poor reading skills.

[zandru]

37 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Nevertheless, Jaime isn't Tyrion's literary parallel. It's Sandor.

Good catch! I've often thought of all Tyrion had in common with Sandor Clegane - and yet, they dislike each other. With Tyrion, it's the casual contempt of the rich, of course. Then again, I always thought Harry Potter and Severus Snape had much in common and thus could have become friends. So clearly, I'm out of touch with the whole concept of "literature" and "character."

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

4 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Didn't I specifically mentioned the part where the girl was a sex slave not a prostitute, she can't just not come to work the next day,she is considered an object and not in the way the modern feminist prattle about but in a will be killed if loses its shine way.

You really are using the word genocidal in a careless manner.

First of all you say that  things such as forcing women into slavery are common in planetos and should be taken as valid for such times, on the other hand you call Tywin a genocidal monster when all his actions were directed towards settling fear into his enemy's hearts and not because he wanted to kill whole of or some segment of the Riverland population. He didn't mind if they lived or dead, he just wanted to end the war with as few casualties on his side as possible and that mate is one of the most basic principles of war and survival in general and one that is practiced even now in the 21st century. He was a man who saw a way to end the war quickly and went for it.

He was no more genocidal than the  Starks or Tully who wouldn't mind if each and every one of the lannister soldier drops dead the next minute if it meant winning a war to regain some honor of a dead Lord.

So he should follow the rules of chivalry so that the two armies meet on the field of battle and die by thousands or use  some shock tactics which is morally reprehensible and inhumane but gives a chance at life for many thousands of soldiers of both sides, who is to decide whether the life of the farmer who ploughs his field is more important than the lives of the soldiers called by their Lord who were farmers themselves but were made to take up spear and stone under the fear of repercussions to them or their families.

We can keep on debating whether the ends justify the means but many men of both sides have him to thanks for their life but was the cost that was paid for this peace too high, there people might disagree.

It really reflects poorly on anyone who compares slavery with programming and is an insult to the forefathers who shed blood of their own countrymen to extinguish it.

Slavery is reprehensible and in enjoying that sex slave, Tyrion participated in a way.  There is no excuse except to say that most of the characters would do the same.  On the oher hand, if Tyrion serves the great liberator of Meereen that will go towards his redemption.  The same goes for Jorah.  Serve Dany and they have their redemption.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Slavery is reprehensible and in enjoying that sex slave, Tyrion participated in a way.  There is no excuse except to say that most of the characters would do the same. 

It's a good point. Moreover, the 7 Kingdoms outlawed slavery long ago and thus Tyrion should have the same revulsion to the practice as most Westerosi. In fact, he does. But he's such a sex addict that he isn't willing to make the distinction between a 'ho by choice per Westeros and a slave, so long as he gets what he craves. As has been noted, this is not Tyrion's high point (and he's immediately "punished" for it by being captured by Jorah Mormont). Whether this act alone puts Tyrion ahead of his father on the "Evilness" scale is laughable. My humble opinion.

Actually, if "using" slaves is all it takes to be an archvillain, then every time a character eats a slave-cooked meal, accepts a slave-brought glass of wine, rides in a slave-powered (or driven) vehicle, wears a slave-sewn garment, laughs at or enjoys slave-provided entertainment - well, it's all the same thing, isn't it?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I didn't know Tywin had an account on the site. 

Seriously tho, duh. Tyrion's been a hypocrite from the start but at least back then he had the self-awareness to acknowledge it, like when he realized he was just as shitty as Daddy when it came to employing monsters like Bronn or when he sorta admitted to himself that he wanted to have sex with Sansa and claim Winterfell. 

But what little introspection he had is now pretty much lost. Now that he knows Tysha wasn't a whore, he's absolutely fine with abusing them. He went from the ultimate Nice Guy to just a Nihilist Guy. 

[Makk]

Tyrion acknowledges he is hypocrite several times during the story, I feel he is only a minor hypocrite, others are much worse. This is not a good example of it either. It wasn't specificvally rape that drove Tyrion over the edge. Tyrion is more broken by the fact that

a ) Jaime lied to him and betrayed him (Jaime probably never realised just how important this was to Tyrion)

b ) Tysha may have actually loved him and at the very least wasn't a whore, and he didn't believe her

c ) Tysha was someone dear to Tyrion that Tywin had raped

Tywin was central to this. He made Jaime lie, and he convinced Tyrion lose trust in Tysha. Tyrion is certainly no saint, but by the standards in ASOIAF he wasn't too bad a person before Jaime revealed what had happened. It was about vengeance, not survival. If it was survival he would never have climbed the ladder.

As for Shae, she played into Tyrions worst weaknesses. He has a desperate need to feel loved, he hates being humiliated, and considers himself very clever. Shae fooled him and pretended to love him when she didn't. I think he could have let this go but then she also humiliated him at the trial. She didn't just lie and betray him, she made up shit like him making her call him her giant of Lannister. And everyone laughed at him. As I said, he is no saint and when she betrayed him again by being in Tywins bed, he was never going to be merciful even if he had a choice to let her live.

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I didn't know Tywin had an account on the site. 

Seriously tho, duh. Tyrion's been a hypocrite from the start but at least back then he had the self-awareness to acknowledge it, like when he realized he was just as shitty as Daddy when it came to employing monsters like Bronn or when he sorta admitted to himself that he wanted to have sex with Sansa and claim Winterfell. 

But what little introspection he had is now pretty much lost. Now that he knows Tysha wasn't a whore, he's absolutely fine with abusing them. He went from the ultimate Nice Guy to just a Nihilist Guy. 

I think maybe the OP is Grand Maester Pycelle in disguise - it would be beneath Tywin's dignity to post online.

Tyrion killed Tywin because he found out that his father not only forced him to participate in the gang rape of Tysha but made Jaime lie so that Tyrion would believe that he was so monstrous that no-one would ever love him. This was sexual abuse compounded by years of emotional abuse and Tyrion finally broke.  No excuse for the murder of Shae, though. I think he reached rock bottom in ADWD and was hell-bent on becoming the monster his father always told him he was.

Not sure why Tyrion is more of a hypocrite that Tywin, the man who berated his son for whoring while building an actual tunnel to the local brothel and taking his son's whore into his own bed. Frankly, I find Tyrion reacting to a life-time of abuse much more sympathetic than Tywin, the man who overreacts on a nuclear scale to the humiliating weakness of his father's rule.

[shardofNarsil]

Quote

The point I'm trying to make here is that Martin often puts characters in similar positions because he wants us to realize that all you need is to take the right choices despite your personal situation.

Actually Martin did put Tyrion in the same position when he has sex with the slave girl compared to when he was told to rape Tysha by his father ,in both cases he rapes the girl.

Quote

One important aspect of ASOIAF is, besides identity and the question of "who am I?", the question of "What should I do?". They both go together because it's what we do what defines us, not what we claim to be.

Interesting because you conveniently avoid talking about Tyrion and his slave girl incident in Illyrio's manse in this context and you also reduce that same slave girl as a literary device as seen here

Quote

As I pointed out in my previous post, you're making the girl the focus of the analysis when she isn't. She's there to serve a plot, to show us how Tyrion is going down and how abusive his "real" nature is. Had Tyrion just being in a position with a prostitute that could "just not come to work the next day", then the effect isn't the same as she could have said "no", one way to another. Tyrion needed to be with someone who was defenseless.

Also the same logic can be applied to  Tywin's actions against Tysha , the fact that she was a whore trying to marry a Lannister when she had no right to and just shows how much Tywin hates it ,if Tywin had just simply sent her way the effect isn't the same.

Plus this -

Quote

What's a better moment to be merciful than to show mercy to innocent women

Yeah ,making a  poor helpless slave girl fear him by expressing his desire to strangle her is pretty merciful.

15 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

He could have simply sent that woman away and with enough money to never come back. He didn't want to get rid of him, he wanted to make a statement of what happens to those who humiliate his House. 

Tywin's father had tried playing Mr.Nice Guy and it led to rebellions ,even after The Reynes of Castamere Lord Farman of Faircastle had tried to defy the Casterly Rock. So tell me should Tywin have just keep on playing nice and remain in wait  for another rebellion to sprung up or show that the Lion of the Rock is not to be mocked anymore,the rule of his father had created an image of the Lannisters which he needed to erase completely if he wanted to have any peace under his rule and by show of force he did it.

 

>"I'm quite wary of passing moral judgment to literary characters without analyzing the proper background and context. Characters, we're supposed to assume, make a big turn once the story starts, as this is the peak of what they are able to do or be because the story demands them to become characters and not just people"

Yet you say 

Quote

so he needs to cause as many fear as he can, despite his talk of "being merciful when it's needed". What's a better moment to be merciful than to show mercy to innocent women? Tywin had choices. He's probably the character who has more choices in the books. Yet, he chose to be an asshole. There is nothing for us to feel sorry about him.

 

Just replace Tywin by Tyrion in above para and it is still true.

[Protagoras]

Tyrion clearly believes that he is a monster, that he will always been seen as a monster, that he can never truly be loved. Those thoughts has been with him for the entire series but hits him at full force after the trial, after the smallfolks scorn, after Shaes insult, after basically everything and everyone throw all they have at him. 

And if you are already seen as a monster, why not act as one. You have nothing to lose. Why have human decency if you are not respected for it. Certainly, "not raping people" is a low bar but if you are not even getting the amount of respect given to everybody by default, why follow the rules set by established society? Why should you treat others well if they are not willing to do the same. And doesn´t a person, who is given constant scorn, have a greater right to murder, to rape, to steal? After all, they don´t get the standard treatment from the society they live in so why should they follow its rules? And isn´t that more just, more fair that you give to others exactly what they give to you? Tit-for tat and all. 

Yes, Tyrion is at a very dark place in ADWD. 

[WSmith84]

6 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Also the same logic can be applied to  Tywin's actions against Tysha , the fact that she was a whore trying to marry a Lannister when she had no right to and just shows how much Tywin hates it ,if Tywin had just simply sent her way the effect isn't the same.

Tysha isn't actually a 'whore trying to marry a Lannister,' she's a peasant girl who was almost raped. Did you miss that?

Also, are you actually reading JCRB's posts? She's clearly stated that yes, Tyrion is a hypocrite who raped a slave girl. She's not disputing that. She's merely analysing it from the perspective of literature. Tywin's actions against Tysha (an innocent) were wrong, just as Tyrion's actions against those slave girls (again, innocents) were also wrong.

But, and here's the unfortunate thing for anyone who loves Tywin and thus wants to make his awful deeds appear less revolting, Tyrion being a hypocrite, rapist and murderer in no way justify Tywin's despicable acts against Tyrion (or anyone else, for that matter).

[Tianzi]

On 1.05.2017 at 4:44 AM, shardofNarsil said:

Tyrion hates Tywin for having Tysha raped and kicking her out for marrying him but he himself has no problems raping women

Yy. Tysha's example is definitely last thing that you could call 'not having a problem with' (and I'd argue that it was rape for Tyrion as well, I don't know where you got this 'he could have refused!', we are talking about Tywin Lannister here) and all the other examples of Tyrion commiting rapes come from after he's learned about Tywin's deed, and are clearly marks of Tyrion's deteriorating morality. And as problematic as Shae's case is, she actually wanted to be a prostitute, it's shown repeatedly that she prefers it over doing housework etc.

Also, Tyrion is no saint, but he's mostly just a product of his society's mentality about women and lower classes, and he does try to rise above it multiple times, while Tywin is a monster fond of extra cruelty.

[Byfort of Corfe]

18 hours ago, Makk said:

 

As for Shae, she played into Tyrions worst weaknesses. He has a desperate need to feel loved, he hates being humiliated, and considers himself very clever. Shae fooled him and pretended to love him when she didn't. I think he could have let this go but then she also humiliated him at the trial. She didn't just lie and betray him, she made up shit like him making her call him her giant of Lannister. And everyone laughed at him. As I said, he is no saint and when she betrayed him again by being in Tywins bed, he was never going to be merciful even if he had a choice to let her live.

I think that this is key in understanding Tyrion.  He thinks that he is a good deal smarter than he is.  All along Shae has been giving him some pretty overt signals, sure she calls him nice things in bed but then she's always pressing him for more.  "Can I take my jewels? and "Can I wear my nice dresses?  ".  Tyrion worries about her safety, Shae worries about who her next steady customer will be.  I think that the trial is really the absolute point of no return.  Shae's testimony opens his eyes. 

 

At the end of the day, after Tysha, Tyrion is deeply screwed up.  He brings Shae to King's Landing even though he knows that puts her in mortal danger.  It seems like a good moral move that he doesn't force himself on Sansa but is that because of a moral feeling to her or a feeling that he will betray Shae, his current one true love?  And now, after his misadventures in Essos, he is turning his back on Penny who obviously loves him deeply.  But at the end of the day Penny doesn't come up to Tyrion's standards. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

9 hours ago, shardofNarsil said:

Yet you say 

Just replace Tywin by Tyrion in above para and it is still true.

 

Calling someone an asshole isn't necessarily a moral judgment. Many good people can be assholes. In the case of Tywin, is he a bad person or a misunderstood character? As I said, he had many choices and he took the ones that caused more harm in order to make himself look a better and more powerful person. Ironically, Tyrion does exactly the same: he does things that superficially look noble, but they're selfish as it's for his own benefit. It's also ironic how none of them follows Ned's "rule" of doing things themselves, which I think it's the main message Martin want to give us. Tywin uses the Mountain and other goons so he won't stain his hands. Tyrion (and also Cersei) does the same because he can't do it on his own (neither can't Cersei). It's like he's a reflection of Tywin's soul, not the gallant nobleman he believed himself to be but a deformed dwarf that uses lesser men to do the dirty job. Jaime, impulsive as he is, does the killing himself even if he's demonized for it for the rest of his life.

[Makk]

24 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

At the end of the day, after Tysha, Tyrion is deeply screwed up.  He brings Shae to King's Landing even though he knows that puts her in mortal danger.  It seems like a good moral move that he doesn't force himself on Sansa but is that because of a moral feeling to her or a feeling that he will betray Shae, his current one true love?  And now, after his misadventures in Essos, he is turning his back on Penny who obviously loves him deeply.  But at the end of the day Penny doesn't come up to Tyrion's standards. 

I'm not sure Penny does love him deeply. Even if she did, that doesn't oblige him to return that love.

I think he didn't force himself on Sansa largely because he was hoping that with time he could convince her to love him. I don't think Tyrion is an outright bad guy. He has his good acts and bad acts. He can be noble at times and callous at other times.