snow is the man

as someone who watched the show first before reading the books I noticed how different it makes me feel about characters.

43 posts in this topic

Renly was more noble in the show. Renly  was a jerk in the books(mocking his own niece and agree with killing Dany).

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Posted (edited)

Having read the books first, the show hasn't really changed how I feel about characters. I've been with the books far too long and my impression of them firmly established. For example, Cersei is much different in books v show - enough similarities there, but really very different in some key areas. I always see the book version of her (and others) first and foremost, so when they don't match, I have some dissonance to deal with. I don't separate them well enough to enjoy the show as much as I'd like to. Marge is another example. In the books, we don't see her POV and I'd never pegged her as the scheming sex kitten - more the loyal daughter of an ambitious house who has picked up a head for politicking from her grandmother. So I watch the show, realize this is a valid interpretation of her, but won't drop my interpretation until the books contradict me.

There were some characters that the show brought a little more fully to life for me. Mainly secondary characters, but Drogo, Bobby B and Viserys stand out to me as improvements. Not improved in the sense of being better versions, just in helping me further flesh out my already established images. Viserys in particular I thought was outstanding in this area. He's still a piece of shit in either medium, but seeing him on TV and watching the emotions play across his face made him more fully formed for me.

Edited by Gertrude

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Posted (edited)

I read the books first, and didn't watch the show at all until very recently when I finally decided to binge-watch it all at once over a period of two weeks. (What can I say? We don't really watch TV around here and I just never felt like paying for HBO or bothering with illegal torrents. I finally decided to buy the episodes via Amazon.)

The only two characters I felt were truly whitewashed were Tywin, but especially Varys.Tywin gets a much more sympathetic portrayal in the show. Varys's whole purpose as it is in the books has been eliminated in the show, and while the show writers may pull something out of their butts to replace it, as of now it simply looks like he's a backer of Daenarys. That's a bit dull for the alleged Master of Whispers.

As for Tyrion; yes, his story arc after killing Tywin and escaping to Essos has been whitewashed too, I guess. I suppose the writers decided they didn't want to deal with things like character development and exploring a person's darker side when they could stick him in beautiful fashions on a set on top of an ancient pyramid which looks like it comes straight out of the Pottery Barn catalogue. However, with two seasons to go, maybe Tyrion's character can recover.

Edited by weirwoodface
"much more", not "more more"

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The most glaring change to me is Varys.  By removing the young Griff/Aegon/Blackfyre story from the show, Varys's and Illyrio's motivations are much harder to swallow. Also Varys is way too good and noble on the show. His "for the realm" schtick is sincere on the show; in the book it was cover for his real ambitions. Still a cool character on the show, though.

Jamie isn't that different, it's just that on the show he still hasn't turned on Cersei yet. I'm sure he will, but the show runners wanted to delay his turn. I'm okay with that.

Tyrion is obviously much less gray and more of a clear "good guy" on the show.

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On 5/1/2017 at 1:48 PM, shardofNarsil said:

Please tell me did you made this thread after reading my "Tyrion is a hypocite." thread.

Actually I had the idea to write this a while ago because someone pointed out I may have been judging tyrion from the books as I do tyrion from the show. But I admit yours made me go ahead and write it.

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On 5/1/2017 at 1:57 AM, myhalfgroat said:

I read the books first and while I know plenty will disagree with me, I didn't feel like Tyrion differed as vastly as people make it seem. I realize that everyone is somewhat white-washed for the show but my opinion on Tyrion was mostly the same ***except that Dance happened. that whole journey just got me bored to death with Tyrion and totally changed how I feel about him. I realize he's at a low point, but I still felt that Martin did a disservice to the character he had cultivated. 

I also agree with you about Tywin.

 

I do have a friend however who watched the show and has mentioned to me now (after reading the books) that he knows he should like Stannis because it's his sense of humor. but he just can't get beyond certain actions the show character engaged in that don't happen in the books. so his experience was similar to yours, just pulling in another direction.

I mean how? ADWD Tyrion raped a sex slave then realized it was wrong and then raped her again.

GRRM has kept hitting on the point that Tyrion is a villain. 

If you do just an analysis on Tyrion's chapters, you can feel that there's a dark undercurrent running through all of them.

I mean he's kind of a misogynist that thinks democracy is stupid, he feeds a singer to the poor, he's physically attacked Shae for mocking him(and later on killed her), he doesn't give a fig about the smallfolk and makes a joke their suffering, he's very much an entitled "Nice Guy", he wonders a lot about just raping Sansa etc.

Yes, Tyrion does some genuinely nice stuff but GRRM has said that Tyrion is equally bad and good. He's the grayest of the gray and that was back in ASOS. In ADWD, he's a much worse person. 

 

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On 5/3/2017 at 9:41 AM, aFeastForDragons said:

There is a reason he's called White Knight Tyrion. They force a plot of Stannis burning his daughter and only heir over a few days of snow but wouldn't dare have Tyrion fight with Jaime or rape the slave girl. It sucks a lot of the greyness out of the story. 

 

I've said it so many times but I wish the TV adaptation had been made by someone that approached it neutrally instead of being so biased towards certain characters. 

Less about characters and more actors and how they play favorites. 

So people with strong actors like Lena Headey (Cersei) gets given more scenes even if it involves a lot of wheel-spinning because they want to give her more scenes to act in.

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Definitely. When I read a passage that was adapted into the show, I always visualize the way it occurred in the show in my mind. Some things I prefer the show version of (Dany/Khal Drogo's wedding night), other things I fall in love with the way they're described so beautifully in the books. I especially love Catelyn's climb up to the Eyrie and would have loved to seen it visualized in the show. Even Sansa's descent from the Eyrie would have been cool to see. 

People who read the books before watching the show tend to be over critical of the show and point out every shortcoming of show characters (or plot). But as someone who fell in love with the show and its characters first, I have this undying loyalty that makes it hard for me to criticize its flaws. I am aware of them, I just don't make a big deal over them. Even when characters make awful mistakes in the show that their book counterpart would never make (Littlefinger), I always find myself defending the show. I know the show is not perfect, but I love it anyway and its characters. Just like I love the characters in the books.

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Posted (edited)

I agree. People say they butchered Stannis. I think Stannis was always sort of a dick though. Dany in the show is still kind of grey so thats okay. Tyrion however is a completely different character. The Tyrion in the show is completely unrecognisable from the Tyrion in the books. There is no depth, no complexity, he isn't even funny or witty anymore. D&D completely destroyed that character in their efforts to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Not wanting to offend feminists or SJW's. He's kind of boring now tbh. 

I would like to see the prostitute beating, occasionally murdering book Tyrion. It makes him far more interesting. It is what the books were known for doing so well in the first place. Complex grey characters. Peter Dinklage is still a good actor but he could have been so much more. 

Edited by RUSSELL BELL

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On 4/30/2017 at 11:17 PM, snow is the man said:

tyrion is the biggest one in my opinion. In the show he is a sweet character who is not only funny but someone you feel bad for and love. Also the scenes with his father make tywin that much more horrible since tyrion is such a nice guy. also tywin is a character I respect more in the show and is a better character in my opinion. brienne seems less pathetic and needy in the books. And while I hated catelyn stark in both (not that she was a bad character just things about her made her hard to like for me) I think she is a more detailed and better character in the books. Also the wildlings as a whole are better in the books.

But I noticed that it changes the way you view characters in the books if you watched the show first. Some of my sympathy for tyrion in the books and how I think of him as a "sort" of good character is based on the tyrion in the show. Anyone else  notice anything else or agree. or even notice it

 

If this shouldn't be in this space sorry

Good thread.

To me, the biggest changes are probably with the Lannisters.

Tyrion: Whitewashed (a term used above, which I heartily agree with) in the show.  His shades of gray have been almost completely removed, he is almost pure good in the show.  Many examples could be listed,up to and including, if I recall correctly, the scene where he killed Shae (if I recall correctly, in the book he just flat out murdered Shae, but in the show she grabbed a knife and attacked him first.  This reminds me of the change to Star Wars, Episode 4.  In the original, as seen in theaters and on video cassettes for about 20 years, Han Solo flat out murdered Greedo in the Cantina, but in subsequently released versions, they changed the scene so that Greedo shoots first, misses Han Solo FROM POINT BLANK RANGE, then Han shoots Greedo in "self-defense."  HARRR!!!!)

Cersei: Also heavily whitewashed for the show.  I think in the books, she is much more ruthless and calculating.  In the show, many things have been done to soften up her character, including the story she told to Cat about her first born child (Robert was the actual father) who died.  Many other examples could be given.  Also, in the books, she is pretty much a total whore, letting nearly anyone have sex with her body in exchange for almost ANYTHING (the Kettleblacks come to mind.  If I recall correctly, she let all three of them have sex with her body, in exchange for...not really very much.  In fact, I'm not even sure how many sexual partners Cersei had in the books.  Maybe someone else was keeping count?).  There are many other examples of the whitewashing of Cersei for the show, too.

Jaime:  THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Tyrion and Cersei.  I like show-Jaime a lot, but there are several things that show-Jaime has done that book-Jaime would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do.  Examples:  When show-Jaime killed his cousin to attempt escape from the Starks, I was appalled.  Book-Jaime would NEVER do such a thing, he values family over just about anything (except his desire for Cersei, who, I guess, is also family, HARR!!!), and I cannot IMAGINE book-Jaime becoming a kin-slayer just to get himself out of captivity. Also noteworthy  The sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in the show, at Joffrey's wake.  MANY fans were outraged by that scene (including me), cuz Jaime would NEVER rape ANYONE, definitely including Cersei, so the show then, in my opinion, attempted to backfill it by "explaining" that Cersei had made some small, almost undetectable, signal of assent near the very end of the scene (I think she put her hand on his leg, or something), which showed it was not a rape. My opinion:  Ludicrous.  To watch that scene, I think 99% of viewers (including me) would reasonably conclude Jaime raped her, and you have to have eyes like an eagle and THEN make an inference and leap of logic at the very end to "conclude" otherwise.

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The Lannister siblings are completely changed. Plot-wise they might play a little bit similar role in the show as they do in the books but personality wise they are all completely different people. And as much as Tyrion is being singled in this thread as a prime example of a character being completely changed, I feel like out of Lannister siblings he resembles his book version the most, which doesn't mean that they are very similar, just that other siblings are that different.

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Talk about characters who are the exact opposites how about Robett Glover and Wyman? Seriously we are talking about the two biggest post RW Stark supporters who are the doing the most behind the scenes trying to find and bring Rickon home but in the show Glover says to Sansa's face "the Starks are all dead" abd Wyman called them "a lost cause"

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I watched seasons 1-4 before reading the books and it definitely effected my perception of different characters. I read book-Jorah through show-Jorah lenses, so I didn't find him creepy the way most readers do. I was disappointed by how much smaller Magaery's role was in the books, and I found show-Shae more likable. Every Lannister except for Jaime is whitewashed; I had some respect for show-Tywin and actually felt like a small part of him did love Tyrion, but in the books he's essentially a monster. After reading the books, I found it hilarious how every one of Cersei's bad deeds is brushed aside on the show "because she loves her children." (Because you can't be a bad person if you love your children, right?) There's nothing more for me to add about Tyrion. I liked Jaime in both book and show, but you really start to see how deeply traumatized he is in the books, and he has actual character development in the books as well.

I loved Sansa in both mediums, but she's much smarter and kinder in the books. I didn't take well to Arya in the show, mostly because it disturbed me how people thought her killing people was "badass." The books make it clear how broken she is. I liked Robb in the show, but I felt truly sorry for him in the books. Show-Robb actively aided his own destruction. Book-Robb tried desperately to do the right thing, but the cards weren't stacked in his favor. Cat is a better character in the books, but more sympathetic on the show (her showing some self-awareness in the show about her hatred for an infant was a good addition, in my opinion).

Melisandre is more sympathetic in the books (her protecting Davos' son versus rubbing their deaths in his face). Stannis is, as many others have already mentioned, a much more nuanced character in the books.

Daenerys is the big one for me, though. I still wasn't a big fan of her in the books, but at least there she had flaws, felt real emotions, and didn't give ridiculous speeches. Emilia seems like a lovely, endearing person, but I find her performance atrocious. Even so, she strikes me as more of a "directors' actress," who does what the showrunners tell her to do, so perhaps the fault for show-Dany's blatant arrogance  and complete lack of emotion should be laid at their doors. I'd even blame it more on D&D's vision for her than the actual directors. When Dany gave that cringe-worthy speech on dragonback this past season, the director said we should be wary of the power Dany has, and how easy it is to blur the lines between leader and tyrant. Everything D&D say, on the other hand, paints her as a goddess who can do no wrong. I realize this isn't a D&D-bashing thread, so I don't want to be too hard on them, but I feel like the show turned Daenerys into a caricature rather than a character. 

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, Cron said:

Good thread.

To me, the biggest changes are probably with the Lannisters.

Tyrion: Whitewashed (a term used above, which I heartily agree with) in the show.  His shades of gray have been almost completely removed, he is almost pure good in the show.  Many examples could be listed,up to and including, if I recall correctly, the scene where he killed Shae (if I recall correctly, in the book he just flat out murdered Shae, but in the show she grabbed a knife and attacked him first.  This reminds me of the change to Star Wars, Episode 4.  In the original, as seen in theaters and on video cassettes for about 20 years, Han Solo flat out murdered Greedo in the Cantina, but in subsequently released versions, they changed the scene so that Greedo shoots first, misses Han Solo FROM POINT BLANK RANGE, then Han shoots Greedo in "self-defense."  HARRR!!!!)

Cersei: Also heavily whitewashed for the show.  I think in the books, she is much more ruthless and calculating.  In the show, many things have been done to soften up her character, including the story she told to Cat about her first born child (Robert was the actual father) who died.  Many other examples could be given.  Also, in the books, she is pretty much a total whore, letting nearly anyone have sex with her body in exchange for almost ANYTHING (the Kettleblacks come to mind.  If I recall correctly, she let all three of them have sex with her body, in exchange for...not really very much.  In fact, I'm not even sure how many sexual partners Cersei had in the books.  Maybe someone else was keeping count?).  There are many other examples of the whitewashing of Cersei for the show, too.

Jaime:  THE EXACT OPPOSITE of Tyrion and Cersei.  I like show-Jaime a lot, but there are several things that show-Jaime has done that book-Jaime would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do.  Examples:  When show-Jaime killed his cousin to attempt escape from the Starks, I was appalled.  Book-Jaime would NEVER do such a thing, he values family over just about anything (except his desire for Cersei, who, I guess, is also family, HARR!!!), and I cannot IMAGINE book-Jaime becoming a kin-slayer just to get himself out of captivity. Also noteworthy  The sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in the show, at Joffrey's wake.  MANY fans were outraged by that scene (including me), cuz Jaime would NEVER rape ANYONE, definitely including Cersei, so the show then, in my opinion, attempted to backfill it by "explaining" that Cersei had made some small, almost undetectable, signal of assent near the very end of the scene (I think she put her hand on his leg, or something), which showed it was not a rape. My opinion:  Ludicrous.  To watch that scene, I think 99% of viewers (including me) would reasonably conclude Jaime raped her, and you have to have eyes like an eagle and THEN make an inference and leap of logic at the very end to "conclude" otherwise.

Actually the actors in that scene (the people who play jaime and cersei) both say they meant it to be just sex not rape but they did a bad job of it. Well them and the writers and everyone involved in that scene. Well that wasn't there words but it was the gist of it

Also I think that tyrion killing shae in the tv show and it being self defense instead of murder had more to do with a difference in shae's character then in tyrion's character.

 

As for cersei I think in the show she is actually smarter or at least the actress makes it seem that way. In the show she has times where she is jealous and does stupid things based on that and protecting her children (though her ways usually backfire),or her lust for power and cruelty. In the books she just does things so stupid it is hard to wrap your head around. In the show she is a more "real character" to me.I still think she is evil and deserves to die.

 

Jaime after he gets back to kings landing seems like a better character in terms of being horrible or good then in the books. His time with bronn is amazing.

 

I think part of this is that watching the characters in the show do the evil stuff they do in the books makes it harder to watch and would lose viewers. It's off topic but I noticed this when I watched walking dead. There were certain plots and scenes in the book that I liked the way it was done but in terms of on the show it just makes me want to turn it off.

Edited by snow is the man

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2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Actually the actors in that scene (the people who play jaime and cersei) both say they meant it to be just sex not rape but they did a bad job of it. Well them and the writers and everyone involved in that scene. Well that wasn't there words but it was the gist of it

I understand that the people involved with the show deny Jaime raped Cersei.  But so far as I know, that only came AFTER the scene aired, and there was incredible outrage by the fan base.   As I basically said above, in my opinion, about 99% of people watching that scene would conclude he raped her.  In my opinion, if that is accurate (that so many people would believe that upon watching it), and we need the actors and/or showrunners to "explain" after the fact that that is NOT what actually happened, then in my opinion that is VERY poor production and/or directing, and ultimately the fault and responsibility of the show anyway.  In my opinion, it is VERY likely that the vast majority of "casual" fans of Got believe Jaime raped Cersei, which is appalling.

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Also I think that tyrion killing shae in the tv show and it being self defense instead of murder had more to do with a difference in shae's character then in tyrion's character.

Uh, frankly, I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the book, Tyrion MURDERED her.  Period.  In the show it was "self-defense."  That is a HUGE difference, no matter which character the change was intended to serve.

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

As for cersei I think in the show she is actually smarter or at least the actress makes it seem that way. In the show she has times where she is jealous and does stupid things based on that and protecting her children (though her ways usually backfire),or her lust for power and cruelty. In the books she just does things so stupid it is hard to wrap your head around. In the show she is a more "real character" to me.I still think she is evil and deserves to die.

Interesting.  I think most people would say Cersei is more sympathetic a character in the show, but maybe I'm wrong.

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

Jaime after he gets back to kings landing seems like a better character in terms of being horrible or good then in the books. His time with bronn is amazing.

I strongly agree. The friendship between Jaime and Bronn is one of my favorite things in the show (as compared to the books)

2 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

I think part of this is that watching the characters in the show do the evil stuff they do in the books makes it harder to watch and would lose viewers. It's off topic but I noticed this when I watched walking dead. There were certain plots and scenes in the book that I liked the way it was done but in terms of on the show it just makes me want to turn it off.

Hmmm.  Interesting, but I know nothing about Walking Dead.  I've heard of it, and I know it's really popular, but I know pretty much nothing about it. Sorry.  Maybe someone else may see this and comment about it.

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21 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Jaime after he gets back to kings landing seems like a better character in terms of being horrible or good then in the books.

That's an interesting perspective. For me show Jaime seems to be a much bigger dick than he is in the books (both before he lost his hand and after).

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22 hours ago, Cron said:

I understand that the people involved with the show deny Jaime raped Cersei.  But so far as I know, that only came AFTER the scene aired, and there was incredible outrage by the fan base.   As I basically said above, in my opinion, about 99% of people watching that scene would conclude he raped her.  In my opinion, if that is accurate (that so many people would believe that upon watching it), and we need the actors and/or showrunners to "explain" after the fact that that is NOT what actually happened, then in my opinion that is VERY poor production and/or directing, and ultimately the fault and responsibility of the show anyway.  In my opinion, it is VERY likely that the vast majority of "casual" fans of Got believe Jaime raped Cersei, which is appalling.

Uh, frankly, I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the book, Tyrion MURDERED her.  Period.  In the show it was "self-defense."  That is a HUGE difference, no matter which character the change was intended to serve.

Interesting.  I think most people would say Cersei is more sympathetic a character in the show, but maybe I'm wrong.

I strongly agree. The friendship between Jaime and Bronn is one of my favorite things in the show (as compared to the books)

Hmmm.  Interesting, but I know nothing about Walking Dead.  I've heard of it, and I know it's really popular, but I know pretty much nothing about it. Sorry.  Maybe someone else may see this and comment about it.

I think it was badly done but I believe they didn't want it to be rape but did the scene wrong. It would be extremly out of character for jaime.

I do think cersei is more sympathetic in the show and is also a better character.

Also my point wasn't about walking dead it was just an example. I was trying to say something that is good in a book might be horrible on TV or movies.

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On 6/24/2017 at 9:36 PM, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Talk about characters who are the exact opposites how about Robett Glover and Wyman? Seriously we are talking about the two biggest post RW Stark supporters who are the doing the most behind the scenes trying to find and bring Rickon home but in the show Glover says to Sansa's face "the Starks are all dead" abd Wyman called them "a lost cause"

I don't remember wyman being in the show just mormont and glover. This is also because the boltons did free the glover's from the ironman when it was stannis in the books. I am not disagrreing with you just pointing out differences

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Posted (edited)

59 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I don't remember wyman being in the show just mormont and glover. This is also because the boltons did free the glover's from the ironman when it was stannis in the books. I am not disagrreing with you just pointing out differences

Supposedly Wyman was the guy who gave a White Wolf speech. Yep, he totally doesn't look the part.

Edited by Tyrek Lannister

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