Rhaegar's final words

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, I'm just not interested.  People have been talking about nothing else for five years and I don't really care anymore.

Thank you for your contribution.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, that is why I still refer to the World book as semi-canon, even though it draws ire from other posters because even though George did contribute a mammoths worth of work and information, this statement below makes me hesitant

Well, you can do better than that to justify your position.

You can point out that GRRM has done entire interviews in which he deliberately and explicitly casts doubt on the validity of information in the World book.   Like this one.  Which is full of statements like this:

Quote

"So who knows if it's really true or not!" Martin chuckled.

Quote

The narrative unreliability is reminiscent of Westeros's first tell-all author, the court jester Mushroom, who claims intimate knowledge of various Targaryen bedroom secrets. "And he may be making up a lot of this shit," Martin said. "That possibility is there, because he's an old guy telling tales, and embroidering them, making them more sexual, suggestive, and violent."

You can also point out that the World book is beyond any doubt loaded with a metric ton of bogus information.

For instance, every theory put forward in the World book about the Others is wrong.  We know this because unlike the maesters, we have seen the Others via POV chapters in canon on two occasions.  We know they really are supernatural creatures made of ice and that they melt when stabbed with dragonglass... which no maester would ever believe.  All the maesters are wrong, no exceptions, and we are right.

On the subject of more recent events such as those involving Jon's parents, Targs, etc, the interview says

Quote

The book is written from the viewpoint of a maester at the Citadel, one who hopes to pass its knowledge on to someone sitting on the Iron Throne. As such, the author may have ... rearranged events to suit the interests of a particular royal family.

Well, that doesn't sound like completely trustworthy content to me.  And if the fapp is full of content meant for the World book, what does that mean?

Again, it's not me... or the fans... who are making this argument most strongly.  It's GRRM.  Who is explicitly saying we should take this World book/fapp material with a grain of salt the size of a dog.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 minute ago, JNR said:

Again, it's not me... or the fans... who are making this argument most strongly.  It's GRRM.  Who is explicitly saying we should take this World book/fapp material with a grain of salt the size of a dog.

Uh... no, seems it is you. In the quotes you yourself brought, George is talking explicitly about the book, and it's you who decide, on your own, to spread it to the app, as well.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Thank you for your contribution.

You're welcome.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm on my phone so bear with me guys.Lynn thanks for posting this.

 

It's this quote that cracks me up...

A wise man could earn more from silence than from song." He could not put it much plainer than that.

True to life.

[The Fattest Leech]

42 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, you can do better than that to justify your position.

You can point out that GRRM has done entire interviews in which he deliberately and explicitly casts doubt on the validity of information in the World book.   Like this one.  Which is full of statements like this:

You can also point out that the World book is beyond any doubt loaded with a metric ton of bogus information.

For instance, every theory put forward in the World book about the Others is wrong.  We know this because unlike the maesters, we have seen the Others via POV chapters in canon on two occasions.  We know they really are supernatural creatures made of ice and that they melt when stabbed with dragonglass... which no maester would ever believe.  All the maesters are wrong, no exceptions, and we are right.

On the subject of more recent events such as those involving Jon's parents, Targs, etc, the interview says

Well, that doesn't sound like completely trustworthy content to me.  And if the fapp is full of content meant for the World book, what does that mean?

Again, it's not me... or the fans... who are making this argument most strongly.  It's GRRM.  Who is explicitly saying we should take this World book/fapp material with a grain of salt the size of a dog.

 I do believe, I do believe... that that World book is purposefully written skewed 

im on my phone, so my response won't be as detailed as I want (work), but trust me when I say that I have made pretty much the same argument as you just did, same quotes even, and I was even called names for it, because internet  There is one frequent poster that frequently shit heavy bias that they seem to sincerely think Cersei is truly the most gorgeous because the World book says so 

I think the buggest examples of the skewing is anything that goes against the maesters and the Lannisters, specifically Cersei. Nothing can make her or her children or her life choices look bad. Even Bob Baratheon is only a *partial* hero. 

Basically, most of the time if there is a negative comment about anyone or anything, it means the opposite. 

I think, as I've mentioned in other threads, that much of the history we get in the World book is actually not that important in its little pieces because it is the whole that seems as foreshadowing for the near future events in the current story. 

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Oft-overlooked fact: Targaryen princes, having been dealt a deadly blow, which by all laws of gods and men should've killed them on the spot, will nevertheless, against all odds, live long enough to give a plot-required speech. What can I say, I don't set the rules.

Also, the one eyewitness that would know for a fact, suggested that Rhaegar took at least some time dying, instead of flatlining the second the hammer caved in his chest:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

So, he wasn't already dead when hitting the ground.

Rhegar wasn't just dealt a deadly blow.His chest got caved in my Robert wielding his warhammer.

Died at my feet = the way people talk.. I've heard the same thing on several tv shows ,other books and gang bangers in Oakland CA.

Also,as the only witness on the scene Robert never mentions having said Lyanna.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Rhegar wasn't just dealt a deadly blow.His chest got caved in my Robert wielding his warhammer.

Died at my feet = the way people talk.. I've heard the same thing on several tv shows ,other books and gang bangers in Oakland CA.

Also,as the only witness on the scene Robert never mentions having said Lyanna.

So, let's use the smallest fragments of text ("his chest was caved in, it's important!"), unless they don't support your point, and then it's "just the way people talk"?

I'm not playing.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 8:08 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Pretty much this.

The reason why I'm asking is because Rhaegar is the most romanticised character in the series, not just by fans, but characters in the books as well.

Rhaegar received a fatal hit in the chest with a warhammer, which should render most people unable to speak. I don't know if there was fighting all around Robert and Rhaegar as they were fighting as well, or if it was simply the two of them fighting one on one with each other with the sldiers being spectators, but regardless, unless Rhaegar screamed Lyanna's name out loud, which I highly doubt he did, I doubt anyone heard him say anything.

Robert doesn't say anything about Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name and if Rhaegar did indeed whisper her name, I think Robert would be the only one to hear it, as he was most likely the person who was in Rhaegar's closest proximity. But Robert doesn't say anything and still to this day thinks Lyanna was kidnapped and raped multiple times by Rhaegar, which leads me to believe that either Robert didn't hear Rhaegar, or Rhaegar didn't say anything at all.

 

All in all, the reason why I asked was because I think Rhaegar whispering Lyanna's name was something that was invented by some singer or someone else, because a lot of people believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and, as I stated previously, Rhaegar is the most romanticised character in the series. Not just by its fans, but also many characters in the books themselves.

Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips is from the House of the Undying . Whether it is history or prophecy only the shadow knows .

[spauldo17]

On Invalid Date at 5:38 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

This.

Actually with the cacophony of a Medieval type battle going on around, men and horse screaming, the clash of arms on armor and the fact that both Rhaegar and Robert were probably wearing helmets I doubt anyone could have heard someone else's' whispered last words.  Add in that Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest so hard that it killed him and I doubt that Rhaegar could have whispered anything, he was probably gasping for air.

This is a classic case of having too much time inbetween books, so we over analyze every single minutia of text. 

The reason this comment is absurd, is because you are applying realism to a fantasy novel.  Need I remind you that the term "fantasy" refers to something outside of reality?  Yes the battle was probably loud, there was a lot going on, but an author is allowed to conveniently gloss over things like that, in order to further the plot.  It happens all the time and is a classic literary device.

As far as being able to speak with his chest caved in.  I'm willing to bet that none of us on this forum have any experience with such an event, and therefore anything we say on the matter would be, at best, conjecture and opinion.  Not even mentioning the fact that "having his chest caved in" could mean anything from a broken sternum to being flat as a pancake.  The people who witnessed this happen were not medical doctors, and were unable to relay the actual cause of death, simply what they witnessed.  They saw Robert smash his Warhammer into Rhaegar's chest, therefore his chest was cave in.  In reality a blow like that could have punctured a lung or two, smashed some internal organs, or  created internal bleeding which would, in fact, give Rhaegar plenty of time to utter a woman's name as he slowly died.

Now onto those who say it's "melodramatic" to say a woman's name as you did.  Yes, it is.  But this is a fantasy novel, there are a lot of "melodramatic" things that happen.  GRRM wishes to convey to us that Rhaegar's and Lyanna's is a love story, this is one of the ways he chooses to do so.  Sometimes in fantasy novels you must step back, remember it's fantasy, and apply only a touch of reality to it.  Those who say, "well it would've been loud, and what a drama queen for saying a woman's name, and scientifically speaking he wouldn't be able to speak at all" simply miss the point of a novel.  To be in a world in which things happen that are not of our world and not wholly ordinary. 

[wolfmaid7]

20 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So, let's use the smallest fragments of text ("his chest was caved in, it's important!"), unless they don't support your point, and then it's "just the way people talk"?

I'm not playing.

That isn't the smallest part of the text.That's a description backed up by Physics.Rhaegar got his chest smashed in and there aint nothing coming out of his mouth except a whole lot of blood.

But hey, if you want to bank this on a vision that represent something that may or may not have happened....

If you want to believe the hypothetical woman's name that was uttered was Lyanna and it was done so lovingly based on rumors of how Rhaegar may have felt go for it.

At the end of the day Robert...The only witness wasn't like

"That bastard Rhaegar had the gall to utter her name after what he'd done."

He said nothing about Rhaegar saying "Lyanna".

Lastly, if true and GRRM concealed the name only to reveal it was Lyanna said with love in an app. Its crappy writing and an even more a crappier reveal.

Hey you spent X amount of dollars on the books and these little mysteries sprinkled here and there get them for X amount in the app.

If it wasn't a mystery yet constructed like one then still crappy writing.You just don't do that.

[spauldo17]

18 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

That isn't the smallest part of the text.That's a description backed up by Physics.Rhaegar got his chest smashed in and there aint nothing coming out of his mouth except a whole lot of blood.

But hey, if you want to bank this on a vision that represent something that may or may not have happened....

If you want to believe the hypothetical woman's name that was uttered was Lyanna and it was done so lovingly based on rumors of how Rhaegar may have felt go for it.

At the end of the day Robert...The only witness wasn't like

"That bastard Rhaegar had the gall to utter her name after what he'd done."

He said nothing about Rhaegar saying "Lyanna".

Lastly, if true and GRRM concealed the name only to reveal it was Lyanna said with love in an app. Its crappy writing and an even more a crappier reveal.

Hey you spent X amount of dollars on the books and these little mysteries sprinkled here and there get them for X amount in the app.

If it wasn't a mystery yet constructed like one then still crappy writing.You just don't do that.

Again, your version of "physics" simply isn't true.  Having his chest caved in will not kill him instantly.  Few things truly kill instantly. He would have some rattling breaths before he died.  With those rattling breaths it's not inconceivable that he uttered the name of the woman he loved, and for whom he was fighting the whole war.

Also GRRM didn't want people knowing at that time that Jon snow was the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Therefore he strived to leave as few clues as possible.  This is most likely why he chose to leave it a mystery.  Not for the "reveal" of the name as much as the reveal of Jon's lineage.  Since it was already, more or less, confirmed that R+L=J he probably saw no issue with including the information in the app.  It makes sense from a story telling point of view.

[SFDanny]

On 5/4/2017 at 8:24 AM, Sly Wren said:

I agree that there's a good chance that Dany's vision has a good chance of "being true."

But the vision doesn't say what "woman's name" the prince said. The app entry chooses the name. And the entry is written in a POV for the Maester who was writing this book for the king who killed Rhaegar in revenge for Lyanna.

That POV should make us wary.

All POVs should make us wary. The point of so many points of view is to see the story from each character's mind and piece together what we think is true through each pov's bias. The maester's bias in TWoI&F is plain for everyone to see, but we learn lots of valuable information from it nonetheless. We just have to use judgement in looking at the evidence given in that point of view and compare it with others.

However, I don't think the app is written from the same maester's point of view that TWoI&F is. The information in the app may have been meant to be included in TWoI&F but that doesn't mean it is written in the app with the same pov. The app is written as a resource to the reader outside any character's viewpoint. That doesn't mean it has no bias. It clearly does. The bias is what Martin thinks he wants the reader to know at this time - true or false. So, what I take from "revelations" like what name Rhaegar whispered, or where Lyanna died, is that Martin thinks we should have reached those conclusions, based on what clues he has left us up to this point, and these are only confirmations of those conclusions. It certainly doesn't mean he can't change it all later.

I have no problem with someone telling me the app is wrong on a particular entry. Just tell me why you think so, and what evidence you have to back it up. If one thinks the entry is wrong because they just have a feeling something else is going on, that too is fine, as far as it goes. It's just not terribly persuasive. What drives me crazy is when people tell me I need to rule out information from the app, or TWoI&F, or Martin's comments to readers and in interviews, all because it is somehow wrong to weigh evidence outside the "canon" of the books. Such a viewpoint is not a serious discussion of evidence, but the elimination of entire valuable categories of evidence without thought, only to reach a conclusion sought before hand. That is reader bias run amok. I'm glad to see, once again, that is not a mistake you make.

Quote

It seems likely to be true that Rhaegar said a woman's name.

But the very fact that Dany does;t say which name makes the "Lyanna" option suspect. We find out in Storm that Dany knows Lyanna's name really, really well.

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" Storm, Dany IV

Dany knows the story, has thought about why it happened, and volunteers the name herself. She knows that name. And she knows Elia's name really well, too--she's been thinking it since her first POV in Game.

So why does she only hear "a woman's" name?

1. Could be Martin's just being really cheap--Dany heard and recognized the name, but didn't respond to this very important name at all. Possible--but cheap. 

2. Could be somehow the "name" threaded the needle between being perceptible as a woman's name but not being perceptible for a specific name.

But in the visions, it's repeatedly shown that Dany can discern words and phrases she's never heard before. She can hear whispers. And even if she's assuming it was Lyanna's name--why wouldn't she think that? Again--this option is possible--but seems undermined by the context of how Dany understands so much else in her visions.

3. Or--the name isn't one she recognizes. Which would leave out both Lyanna and Elia. That's why it just registers as "a woman's name"--it isn't a name that matters to her. Or doesn't matter yet.

All of the above options are possible. And all would be consistent with Robert wanting to believe that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name after Robert killed him--Robert's need for vengeance fantasy is pretty hefty.

But I think in context of the visions themselves, option #3 has a lot of credibility. It would make a lot of sense.

These are precisely the kind of evaluations that we need to make, but I think you leave out something. Or rather you state it and don't recognize the importance of what you quote. You give us a quote of Dany's from ASoS in which she talks of Lyanna and clearly knows who she is, but what you don't note is that the vision in the House of the Undying comes before that. Let me be clear, I'm not arguing that Dany only learns Lyanna's name through the vision or after that. I think it is shown by other quotes that the original source of Dany's knowledge is from Viserys and there is no reason to think he didn't know Lyanna's name or tell her the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna as he knew it.

What I'm saying is that Martin has taken the reader through a process of hints and clues throughout the five books now published that flesh out the reader's understanding of what went on in his critical backstory of Robert's Rebellion. We learn it from different points of view and have to sort it out for bias, but the clues and hints are there. So, when Martin writes his story of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, it is the first place that we learn that Rhaegar's feelings toward Lyanna maybe something other than that of a kidnapper to a hostage. It is true that Lyanna's name isn't used, but the implication of the vision is that the prince, who is identified by the waters and the rubies, dies saying a women's name because she was someone of importance to him.

After that we learn from many sources that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Your quote above is only one of many that points towards this. What we are seeing, I think, is the gradual reveal throughout the books from many sources that this is the case. Again, I don't want to use that to jump to conclusions about Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar, or who Jon's parents are. It certainly is part of all that discussion, but this piece of the puzzle is also separate in it's evidence. 

An attentive reader notes that the figure in Dany's vision is almost certainly Rhaegar. They also should by this time note that character's from all different biases speak to Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. It should shock no one to learn from the app the name Rhaegar says with his dying breath was Lyanna's. Not if they have been reading the same novels as you and I are. The real question is "is there reason to doubt it is Lyanna's name he says?" I don't think there is evidence supporting any other name. There is much to support that it was Lyanna's name.

What then is the real consequence of this reveal? Very little. It only confirms what we have already been told. Precisely what the app appears to be for.

Let me then also answer your three options. Yes, to option one. Martin is giving only limited information through this vision. As I pointed out, it is critical first information that the readers have to get by through first recognizing this is obviously Rhaegar's death we are seeing, but what we get out of it limited. Only that he cared enough about some woman to murmur her name with his last breath. Is that "cheap?" I don't think so, but the clues are limited. Think back to what we learn about Rhaegar in AGoT. Really, only attentive readers note that Ned does not have the thoughts toward him that we would think he would toward someone who kidnapped and raped his beloved sister. Not much more. So, yes, to stingy with his clues and hints, but "cheap" is not a word I would use.

He gets much less "stingy" in his clues of Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna after this point in the story, and the clue needs to be evaluated in the light of these subsequent revelations.

Your second option seems very unlikely. This is a magical vision. I suppose that is redundant, but it is important to note the options we are told upfront are that it may or may not be true, so to also introduce "technical difficulties" seems unlikely. Certainly Dany knows it is a woman's name she hears, so that should indicate she understands what was said.

The last option is interesting only because it is possible one should also include the possibility that instead of "Lyanna" Rhaegar murmurs "Lya." The shortening of Lyanna Ned uses when he makes his promise at her deathbed. Would Dany understand who Rhaegar was talking about if he says Lya? I think so, but it is worth considering she did not. Again all the evidence is that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and we have no evidence that he felt the same toward any other woman.

[Sly Wren]

On May 4, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Is it, though? I was under the impression that we got nowhere when trying to find out who (if anyone) narrated the app. Am I wrong?

Oh--I'm not asserting I know which maester is the narrator. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I'm going off of Martin's SSMs--that the app has the info that didn't fit into the World Book. Which is a POV based worked--just like the novels.

And another SSM where Martin basically says "who knows if anything in the World Book is true?" Which again seems to stress the POV nature of all that info.

Plus, that app entry is written kind of like the books--POV-ish. Not SSM-ish.

My apologies for making up adjectives.

[Sly Wren]

On May 4, 2017 at 10:20 AM, LynnS said:

Oh Sly Wren... you've got my tinfoil antennae twitching.  I'll go with a name she doesn't recognize and this is a vision of a 'morrow not yet made' since I don't think the song can be written until the story is done.  I'll peg the man in the visions with the indigo eyes and silver hair as Aegon son of Rhaegar, otherwise known as young Griff.  And the woman who so loves a good song... Sansa.  

I'm all for tinfoil. 

Though I do think there's a really good chance that prince in the water is Rhaegar. Same with the scene with naming Aegon.

Which may disqualify me for tinfoil props.

But I do think WHO Rhaegar may be looking at in the "naming" scene is interesting. Dany says "as if" looking at her, Or something to that effect.

Who might Rhaegar have been looking at in that moment? Who might be in the room with him an Elia for who that statement would be relevant? Lots of potential options. But I think the one tied to Dany might work--Elia's lady-in-waiting. The woman whose daughter Barristan thinks Dany looks like. The woman potentially alluded to as throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died--Ashara Dayne.

I think there's a really good chance that's who was in the room with Elia and Rhaegar. And whom Rhaegar looked to for his 3rd head.

On May 4, 2017 at 10:20 AM, LynnS said:

I'll even go as far as to say that these will be the last lines of the story:

The third person in the room?  Tyrion....

Interesting, . . .any chance you'd elaborate?

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm all for tinfoil. 

Though I do think there's a really good chance that prince in the water is Rhaegar. Same with the scene with naming Aegon.

Which may disqualify me for tinfoil props.

But I do think WHO Rhaegar may be looking at in the "naming" scene is interesting. Dany says "as if" looking at her, Or something to that effect.

Who might Rhaegar have been looking at in that moment? Who might be in the room with him an Elia for who that statement would be relevant? Lots of potential options. But I think the one tied to Dany might work--Elia's lady-in-waiting. The woman whose daughter Barristan thinks Dany looks like. The woman potentially alluded to as throwing herself from a tower because her prince had died--Ashara Dayne.

I think there's a really good chance that's who was in the room with Elia and Rhaegar. And whom Rhaegar looked to for his 3rd head.

Interesting, . . .any chance you'd elaborate?

Sure I think this vision is not of Rhaegar but of his son Aegon and a not vision of the past but of the future.  I've elaborated a bit more here in response to JNR's comment.

 

So it seems to me that Dany's vision on the Trident where she sees her brother's face and her vision of the man in the room with wife and babe are not the same men.  She assumes it is Rhaegar because of the silver harp.  But I think this is a reveal we will get at the end of the story since the song of ice and fire can only be written when all is said and done.  I think Tyrion will see to it that the wrongs done to Sansa will be corrected and she will finally marry her dragon prince and give him a son with golden hair.

The three heads of the dragon: Mother, Father and one other to guide a future king.... Tyrion  

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

All POVs should make us wary. The point of so many points of view is to see the story from each character's mind and piece together what we think is true through each pov's bias. The maester's bias in TWoI&F is plain for everyone to see, but we learn lots of valuable information from it nonetheless. We just have to use judgement in looking at the evidence given in that point of view and compare it with others.

Agreed.

Quote

However, I don't think the app is written from the same maester's point of view that TWoI&F is. The information in the app may have been meant to be included in TWoI&F but that doesn't mean it is written in the app with the same pov.

But it's written in the same style--POV-ish. Not SSM-ish.

And we have no confirmation to support the idea that it is objective reality vs. POV based interp of the people at large in Westeros. I tried once to ask if some info from the app reflected external, absolute truth or in-world assumption/assessment like all of the book--and got an answer that didn't fit my question at all. Which makes me think the app and World Book writers didn't want to answer that line of questioning--which is totally fine. But does leave me with no reason to think the app isn't in-world knowledge/assumption vs. objective truth. 

Plus we have Martin's SSM where he jokingly states that "who knows if anything in the World Book is true?" or something. So, until we get more data--seems like assuming it's objective truth has to be classified as an "assumption."

Quote

 So, what I take from "revelations" like what name Rhaegar whispered, or where Lyanna died, is that Martin thinks we should have reached those conclusions, based on what clues he has left us up to this point, and these are only confirmations of those conclusions.

Then why continue to leave that kind of info out of family trees in the books, etc? 

Quote

 What drives me crazy is when people tell me I need to rule out information from the app, or TWoI&F, or Martin's comments to readers and in interviews, all because it is somehow wrong to weigh evidence outside the "canon" of the books. Such a viewpoint is not a serious discussion of evidence, but the elimination of entire valuable categories of evidence without thought, only to reach a conclusion sought before hand. That is reader bias run amok. I'm glad to see, once again, that is not a mistake you make.

No--I think the World Book has some very interesting info--I've based some of my crackpot ideas on it. But so far, we've no reason to think the World Book and the app are any different from the books--they express in world knowledge/assumption/interpretation. So far, we've been given no SSM or other info to undermine that context--unless I'm missing something--which is always an option.

Quote

These are precisely the kind of evaluations that we need to make, but I think you leave out something. Or rather you state it and don't recognize the importance of what you quote. You give us a quote of Dany's from ASoS in which she talks of Lyanna and clearly knows who she is, but what you don't note is that the vision in the House of the Undying comes before that. Let me be clear, I'm not arguing that Dany only learns Lyanna's name through the vision or after that. I think it is shown by other quotes that the original source of Dany's knowledge is from Viserys and there is no reason to think he didn't know Lyanna's name or tell her the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna as he knew it.

What I'm saying is that Martin has taken the reader through a process of hints and clues throughout the five books now published that flesh out the reader's understanding of what went on in his critical backstory of Robert's Rebellion. We learn it from different points of view and have to sort it out for bias, but the clues and hints are there. So, when Martin writes his story of Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, it is the first place that we learn that Rhaegar's feelings toward Lyanna maybe something other than that of a kidnapper to a hostage. It is true that Lyanna's name isn't used, but the implication of the vision is that the prince, who is identified by the waters and the rubies, dies saying a women's name because she was someone of importance to him.

Agreed that this is possible. And it even would fit if Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna and was trying to say, "Dude! Robert! I didn't hurt Lyanna!"

But the idea that Rhaegar loved Lyanna is brought up in Dany's first Game POV. And right after it comes Ned's first POV where Robert gives his take. So, in the first 3 chapters (4 if you count the Prologue) of Game, we're given the two competing "interps" of Rhaegar's actions helping to incite Robert's Rebellion.

Then, right after that, in Cat's first 2 POV's, we're given the two competing interps of Jon Arryn's Death--the thing that's going to stir things up and eventually help incite Robb's Rebellion: Arryn either died of a fever or was killed by Cersei and the Lannisters.

So, in the first 6 chapters of Game, we've been given a dilemma in both instances: love vs. rape; fever vs. poison. And in the case of Jon Arryn's death,we don't find out until the end of Storm that it was a false dilemma--there was option number 3: Baelish and Lysa.

Given that Martin shows us flat out in the Moon Door Confessional that he gives us false dilemmas about things that get Rebellions going, seems like we've got very good reason to be suspicious of the Rhaegar dilemma, no? Really, really could be a third option, hidden while Martin is actively boxing his readers into thinking it's only a dilemma--tricksy old turtle!!!

Quote

After that we learn from many sources that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

No--we learn that many people believed he loved her. From sources we have reason to question. 

Quote

Your quote above is only one of many that points towards this.

But only if we assume that he loves her in the first place. Which could still be true.

Or if we assume he was trying to tell Robert something to exonerate himself: "Dude! I didn't take Lyanna!"

But given that we know Dany knows Lyanna's name but does not register the name Rhaegar says--this is reason to doubt our potential assumptions that Rhaegar was saying that name. 

Quote

What we are seeing, I think, is the gradual reveal throughout the books from many sources that this is the case. Again, I don't want to use that to jump to conclusions about Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar, or who Jon's parents are. It certainly is part of all that discussion, but this piece of the puzzle is also separate in it's evidence. 

Very possible. Though that brings me back to my point about false dilemmas above: Martin completely fooled me with the Jon Arryn one. So maybe I'm paranoid. But given that he gave us another dilemma--love vs. rape--in the first 3 chapters of the series, the "reveal" of love vs. rape in the app could be as false as Ned's "figuring out" who killed Jon Arryn.

Quote

An attentive reader notes that the figure in Dany's vision is almost certainly Rhaegar. They also should by this time note that character's from all different biases speak to Rhaegar's love for Lyanna.

Agreed--which is why Dany's not hearing "Lyanna" but "a woman's name" is so weird.

Quote

It should shock no one to learn from the app the name Rhaegar says with his dying breath was Lyanna's. Not if they have been reading the same novels as you and I are. The real question is "is there reason to doubt it is Lyanna's name he says?" I don't think there is evidence supporting any other name. There is much to support that it was Lyanna's name.

Agreed--not at all a shock. Like when it's not a shock to the reader that Ned "figures out" who killed Jon Arryn.

The shock is: we and Ned are dead wrong. (Bad pun--sorry)

Quote

What then is the real consequence of this reveal? Very little. It only confirms what we have already been told. Precisely what the app appears to be for.

If it reveals Lyanna's name, you are right.

But if the reveal is that Dany didn't recognize the name--which I think there's a great chance of--then it's a very consequential reveal. It's telling us that like the Jon Arryn mystery, there really might be a third option here. And that what we and everyone else in the country thought happened didn't.

Quote

Let me then also answer your three options. Yes, to option one. Martin is giving only limited information through this vision. As I pointed out, it is critical first information that the readers have to get by through first recognizing this is obviously Rhaegar's death we are seeing, but what we get out of it limited. Only that he cared enough about some woman to murmur her name with his last breath. Is that "cheap?" I don't think so, but the clues are limited. Think back to what we learn about Rhaegar in AGoT. Really, only attentive readers note that Ned does not have the thoughts toward him that we would think he would toward someone who kidnapped and raped his beloved sister. Not much more. So, yes, to stingy with his clues and hints, but "cheap" is not a word I would use.

But why take all the time to show us how well Dany can hear and discern in those visions and then not give the name? That's where the "cheap" comes in. Martin could have had her hear "Lyanna"--and then had another twist. Or had her hear "something she could not understand."

He didn't--he had it be "a woman's name"--and not list any of the names we know Dany knows. If it's just to hide things form the reader, there are better ways to do so--So, yes, I think if Rhaegar's saying "Lyanna" here, it's a bit cheap.

Quote

He gets much less "stingy" in his clues of Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna after this point in the story, and the clue needs to be evaluated in the light of these subsequent revelations.

But he told us in Game Dany I that people in Rhaegar's family think Rhaegar loved Lyanna. . . . that's a a pretty big clue that it's an option right from the very, very beginning.

Quote

Your second option seems very unlikely. This is a magical vision. I suppose that is redundant, but it is important to note the options we are told upfront are that it may or may not be true, so to also introduce "technical difficulties" seems unlikely. Certainly Dany knows it is a woman's name she hears, so that should indicate she understands what was said.

Agreed.

Quote

The last option is interesting only because it is possible one should also include the possibility that instead of "Lyanna" Rhaegar murmurs "Lya." The shortening of Lyanna Ned uses when he makes his promise at her deathbed. Would Dany understand who Rhaegar was talking about if he says Lya? I think so, but it is worth considering she did not. Again all the evidence is that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and we have no evidence that he felt the same toward any other woman.

Interesting--any evidence at all that anyone other than Ned or her family called her Lya? I agree that this would be a good option if we have any evidence in that direction. So far, there's exactly one instance of "Lya" in all of the books--and it's from Ned. So I'm doubting this one until we get more data.

As for evidence that he loved anyone else--we do have evidence that Rhaegar might not have been particularly romantic at all. We've got him studying and dreaming--but nothing on his being amorous. So far, it all seems to be assumption open to interpretation, not verifiable fact.

And as for feeling a need for another woman--who exactly is Rhaegar looking at when he says "There must be one more?"

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way. Clash, Dany  IV

Is Rhaegar speaking to Elia? Or to someone who could have been in the room with him? Someone connected to Dany?

We find out much later that Dany looks like Ashara's daughter--but given Ashara's station, her being in the doorway of this scene would make a lot of sense. As clear a clue as the blatant "Rhaegar either loved or raped Lyanna" dilemma that we are given in the first 3 chapters of Game? No--but then the "Baelish and Lysa" option was MUCH less clear than the "fever vs. Lannister poison" version of Arryn's death.

Bottom line: Rhaegar could absolutely being saying Lyanna's name. And could be saying it for a number of reasons. But it just isn't confirmed yet. Not with the caveats Martin himself has put on the app and the World Book--not to mention the novels themselves--and their ability to show objective truth vs. in world assumptions and interpretations.

[JNR]

53 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I tried once to ask if some info from the app reflected external, absolute truth or in-world assumption/assessment like all of the book--and got an answer that didn't fit my question at all.

I think we know, with certainty, that that info does not represent external, absolute truth, because some of it can't be right.

For instance, Melisandre's place of origin is stated flatly to be Asshai.  But from her POV chapter in ADWD, we find that

Quote

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer.

I don't think there's any reasonable way to interpret this except that Melisandre lived other places before Asshai.  Therefore, the fapp statement cannot be the truth.

Similarly, the fapp says:

Quote

Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

If there had been such a public rumor, and Aerys had heard it, and had sent Hightower to the ToJ, then obviously Aerys knew where Lyanna was in the middle of the war.

But if there had been such a rumor, and Aerys had known where Lyanna was, he unquestionably would have seized her.  She would have been an incredibly powerful hostage to use against her brother Ned and her fiance Robert, both of whom loved her deeply, and who also happened to be leading the Rebellion that threatened to end Targaryen rule and Aerys' own life. 

We know he would have seized her, because it's precisely what he did with Elia Martell, at precisely the same time, to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish:

Quote

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father.

Yet we know Aerys never did take Lyanna hostage at this time. 

So the entire passage about this supposed rumor, and Aerys' reaction to it -- never found anywhere in canon, needless to say -- is exceedingly improbable, so improbable as to be ludicrous to any serious student of these books.

[wolfmaid7]

On 5/5/2017 at 10:03 AM, spauldo17 said:

Again, your version of "physics" simply isn't true.  Having his chest caved in will not kill him instantly.  Few things truly kill instantly. He would have some rattling breaths before he died.  With those rattling breaths it's not inconceivable that he uttered the name of the woman he loved, and for whom he was fighting the whole war.

Also GRRM didn't want people knowing at that time that Jon snow was the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Therefore he strived to leave as few clues as possible.  This is most likely why he chose to leave it a mystery.  Not for the "reveal" of the name as much as the reveal of Jon's lineage.  Since it was already, more or less, confirmed that R+L=J he probably saw no issue with including the information in the app.  It makes sense from a story telling point of view.

Heart, Lungs and Robert's hammer .Its not a version of physics.The force wielded by Robert would be immense.That vision of Dany is not realistic to that event.

This vision isn't as it seems because we have no idea where in the time steam this is.

As i pointed out earlier  upthread we don't know if the person Dany saw is Rhaegar.It could be,but her lack of "Awww,same dude in the bedroom with the kid just got the shizar knocked out of him" should give us pause. She recognized the harp player as Rhaegar,but in the same stream the guy in the water isn't identified as him?

Plus,the lack of Lyanna name drop after we more or less get the story doesn't make sense.The story has been told with regard to what people think about the events.We know Dany has a version and she knows the players.We the readers also have that version and know the players.It makes no sense to hide it.So if this guy was Rhaegar and he did utter Lyanna it would be consistent with what some characters in world think.No harm no foul right?

But no, he made that a mystery.He was intentionally concealing the name like he did with the identity of "The Prince".

So to craft it that way ,and in X amount of years disclose that in an app!!! Nahhhhhhh.I'm sorry but that doesn't fly.Our perception is being messed with again.Too many events from the past are repeating to be certain it is something that did happen vs something that will,or never happen.

Again look at where there is ambguity...Its in a place it shouldn't be if it's what we think.

The OP brought up the possibility its Aegon.Just as likely to me.He seems poise to want to redo past battles where they lost.Why not try to do the same on the Trident.

 

[spauldo17]

2 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Heart, Lungs and Robert's hammer .Its not a version of physics.The force wielded by Robert would be immense.That vision of Dany is not realistic to that event.

This vision isn't as it seems because we have no idea where in the time steam this is.

As i pointed out earlier  upthread we don't know if the person Dany saw is Rhaegar.It could be,but her lack of "Awww,same dude in the bedroom with the kid just got the shizar knocked out of him" should give us pause. She recognized the harp player as Rhaegar,but in the same stream the guy in the water isn't identified as him?

Plus,the lack of Lyanna name drop after we more or less get the story doesn't make sense.The story has been told with regard to what people think about the events.We know Dany has a version and she knows the players.We the readers also have that version and know the players.It makes no sense to hide it.So if this guy was Rhaegar and he did utter Lyanna it would be consistent with what some characters in world think.No harm no foul right?

But no, he made that a mystery.He was intentionally concealing the name like he did with the identity of "The Prince".

So to craft it that way ,and in X amount of years disclose that in an app!!! Nahhhhhhh.I'm sorry but that doesn't fly.Our perception is being messed with again.Too many events from the past are repeating to be certain it is something that did happen vs something that will,or never happen.

Again look at where there is ambguity...Its in a place it shouldn't be if it's what we think.

The OP brought up the possibility its Aegon.Just as likely to me.He seems poise to want to redo past battles where they lost.Why not try to do the same on the Trident.

 

It is realistic, think about it. The dude is wearing armor, so the Warhammer would have to crush through metal armor, and then his whole body which is probably pretty thick with muscle, being a warrior.  In order to kill him instantly he would have to essentially crush him flat, that is to say he'd have to go through the metal armor, the leather underneath, and then the skin and rib cage, deep enough to crush the heart, and even then there would be a few seconds of consciousness while the blood the heart had just pumped out made its way through his system.  There is a tv show called "forged in fire" and they often use a pig carcass to represent a human body as an equivalent in which to test their blades.   So furthering that premise, imagine having a grown pig, and a Warhammer, and the sheer force you'd have to generate to crush it all the way through. It's not practical.  The victim will almost certainly have some time before he actually dies.  And it doesn't take a lot of time to say a name.

 

And I'm not saying that he left it a mystery only to reveal it on the app.  It wasn't revealed on the app, it's more or less common knowledge.  What he was trying to keep shrouded in Mystery was that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and had Jon. He didn't want too many clues to be out there, so this is one that he kept hidden so people wouldn't put 2 and 2 together.  Once the show essentially confirmed R+L=J there was no point in keeping it a secret any longer because it was common knowledge.  There no longer needs to be a reveal because it is already revealed. So why not include it in the app.