Rhaegar's final words

[wolfmaid7]

46 minutes ago, JNR said:

Actually, I'm not even sure it has the maester POV conceit.

The World book is written by Maester Yandel, yeah.  But the fapp, as far as I know, is supposed to have been written by... nobody.  It's just a big dump of raw information.  It certainly doesn't have Yandel's overwrought prose style.

You could compare the fapp to the book appendices.  Every one of the book appendices says Jon is Ned's bastard.  There's no POV given as the source of that information; it's just part of a big dump at the end of every book.

Are the book appendices always wrong about Jon's father, five times in a row?  We'll find out.  Is the app similarly and repeatedly wrong, about various things?  We'll find that out too. 

But it's definitely a mistake to assume they are both totally accurate -- "this is information GRRM wants us to have" -- and then build theories on that basis. 

And those who wonder how in the world anybody could possibly whisper anything after having their chests crushed in by Robert's warhammer... or how anybody else would ever hear that whisper in the middle of a pitched battle... are surely wise to ask.

I'm still  at a lost when it comes to the POV of this app.It has to be similarly tainted as other unreliable info no matter what the POV the natural inclination during such an impact would be some sound befitting getting smashed in the chest with that weapon.Moreover,as pointed out many times with all that ruckus no one could hear Rhaegar  even if he whispered.I still say when he got hit, there was no sinking to any knees.He would have been flung backwards and died where he fell. 

[JNR]

Well, if you check out the interview posted by The Fattest Leech here, GRRM says that Ran was supposed to do a complete Who's Who of all the characters in the books.  A Who's Who presumably wouldn't really have a perspective in-world, it would just be like the Concordance online.

Well, GRRM says this Who's Who turned out to be gigantic -- half a million words long. Half a million words is about as long as ASOS.  That is a ton of character trivia.  Most of it was left out of the World book, and some found its way into the app.

Did GRRM read half a million words of trivia, about all those characters he made up, that was all supposed to be drawn from the canon?  I would guess he did not.  So if there was info in there that definitely is not in the canon, that was perhaps jumping to conclusions based on canon, it seems possible he didn't realize that in advance.

If future books say a different thing on certain topics, though, you can bet he's gonna hear about it.

[The Fattest Leech]

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, if you check out the interview posted by The Fattest Leech here, GRRM says that Ran was supposed to do a complete Who's Who of all the characters in the books.  A Who's Who presumably wouldn't really have a perspective in-world, it would just be like the Concordance online.

Well, GRRM says this Who's Who turned out to be gigantic -- half a million words long. Half a million words is about as long as ASOS.  That is a ton of character trivia.  Most of it was left out of the World book, and some found its way into the app.

Did GRRM read half a million words of trivia, about all those characters he made up, that was all supposed to be drawn from the canon?  I would guess he did not.  So if there was info in there that definitely is not in the canon, that was perhaps jumping to conclusions based on canon, it seems possible he didn't realize that in advance.

 

Yeah, that is why I still refer to the World book as semi-canon, even though it draws ire from other posters because even though George did contribute a mammoths worth of work and information, this statement below makes me hesitant \/ \/ \/, because until the final words of the final book are printed, I feel like it can change because these are character driven books, and as George says, things change along the way.

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

If future books say a different thing on certain topics, though, you can bet he's gonna hear about it.

Honestly, I always always forget I have the app. I only got it for the character travel maps it gives. Those are fun.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

realize

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, that is why I still refer to the World book as semi-canon, even though it draws ire from other posters because even though George did contribute a mammoths worth of work and information, this statement below makes me hesitant \/ \/ \/, because until the final words of the final book are printed, I feel like it can change because these are character driven books, and as George says, things change along the way.

Honestly, I always always forget I have the app. I only got it for the character travel maps it gives. Those are fun.

Those travel maps are awesome. The few normal maps it has is great. I really wish they would add more

[SFDanny]

The World of Ice & Fire app is not, as some would like us to believe, phony or fake. The appellation of "fapp" is an attempt to delegitimize it as a source of information, and to do so without evidence. To the contrary we know Martin authorized it. We know the entries were read to him. Is it "semi-canon"? Yes, everything that is not written in the books, but comes from the author - either with his ok or from his own mouth - is semi-canon. All that means is that Martin reserves the right to change it.

Of course, Martin also changes things that have appeared in the "canon" of the books themselves. All of which should tell the reader to evaluate the evidence from whatever source it comes from, not to discount something because it is not written in the books. The example of Jon's parents is a case in point. We have the books saying that Jon's mother was Ashara, or Wylla, or a Fisherman's daughter. We also have many clues that point to his mother being Lyanna, and his father being Rhaegar Targaryen. All of these canonical sources cannot be correct. Hence we need to evaluate the evidence to sort out which is most likely.

The same is true of the evidence Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name. The most important source here - out of the canon of the books this time - comes from Dany's visions in the House of the Undying.

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. (ACoK 530) bold emphasis added.

In trying to evaluate these visions we need to look at whether or not there is something else to support them. Clearly the first is an account of Viserys's death we read about in A Game of Thrones, and as there is nothing to contradict it from that source, we should probably reach the conclusion that Dany, for whatever reason, is seeing a true vision of her recent past. The second appears to be an alternate future in which Rhaego lives to become the Stallion Who Mounts The World. This then is an important verification of Pyat Pree's words to Daenerys before her entry into the House of the Undying.

Quote

Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. (ACoK 524) bold emphasis added

Which then is the third vision Dany sees in the quote above? A true recounting such as we see of Viserys's death, or an account of something that never was, as in Rhaego's alternate future? I would suggest the answer to that lies not in the reader making up his or her own account of Rhaegar's death and whether or not the manner of his death, as theorized by what they think Rhaegar should have been capable of saying after Robert hit him with his hammer, or whether or not others alive at the time were able to hear Rhaegar's last murmurs. The supernatural vision Dany experiences allows both Dany and the reader to know what this dying prince said, even if none could in real life, and is either proof that he was capable of murmuring a name as he died or it just something present in a false vision. Rather the point is to see if Dany's vision is supported by other evidence, and therefore is likely true. It is.

Dany sees three things of importance in this vision. First is the two images of the rubies dropping from the prince's chest and the prince dying in water. These are images verified by many others that correspond to Rhaegar's death at the Battle of the Trident. The third is the murmuring of a woman's name as the prince dies. One would think the verification of the first two would be looked upon as strong support for the third.

Beyond the support of the two other parts of Dany's vision is the support within the text concerning Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. Now, one should not confuse support for Rhaegar having feelings of love for Lyanna with her having such feelings for him. That may or may not be true, but we are looking for evidence that would support a reason for Rhaegar to call out with his dying breath a woman's name, particularly Lyanna's. His love for her supplies that reason and supports the other two parts in pointing to this vision to be a true version of Rhaegar's last moment at the Trident. So, when we have Ser Barristan telling us "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" that is evidence that points towards this piece of the vision being true. We can add other's belief this was the case in as well. From the Elder Brother saying about the singer's view that it was, "Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love" to Dany recounting the stories of Viserys telling her "Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved" and more. It all adds into the evidence Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and that he had reason to murmur her name as he lay dying.

So, when we look at the Rhaegar's entry in the app we see just one more piece of the puzzle revealed about Dany's vision and the likely truth of it. It is for us to put all of that into the story Martin is telling and see if it fits - it does - and just how strong is the evidence it is true. I think it very likely.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm still  at a lost when it comes to the POV of this app.It has to be similarly tainted as other unreliable info no matter what the POV the natural inclination during such an impact would be some sound befitting getting smashed in the chest with that weapon.Moreover,as pointed out many times with all that ruckus no one could hear Rhaegar  even if he whispered.I still say when he got hit, there was no sinking to any knees.He would have been flung backwards and died where he fell. 

Yup, it's an example of unreliable narration, regardless of the source.  Whether you believe it or not depends on how badly you want it to be true.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yup, it's an example of unreliable narration, regardless of the source.  Whether you believe it or not depends on how badly you want it to be true.

Whether you believe it or not depends on if you evaluate the evidence and find its worth, or one dismisses the evidence out of hand because one hopes beyond hope it is not true. In this instance, the evidence has mounted and mounted in support of this part of Dany's vision being true. The app entry is only one more piece telling us that.

The objections to Dany's vision being true amount to the reader supplanting what they expect Rhaegar's death would be like instead of Martin's version. It does not matter how noisy the battle was. The vision allows us to be there with Rhaegar and hear his murmur. Whether anyone one at the battle also heard it is besides the point. Whether the reader thinks Rhaegar should have been incapable of murmuring Lyanna's name is irrelevant. We don't see the deathblow, so substituting our judgement for Martin's is foolish. We see through the vision Rhaegar does say a name with his dying breath. The question is only is if the vision true or false, and all the evidence points to it being true.

[wolfmaid7]

48 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Whether you believe it or not depends on if you evaluate the evidence and find its worth, or one dismisses the evidence out of hand because one hopes beyond hope it is not true. In this instance, the evidence has mounted and mounted in support of this part of Dany's vision being true. The app entry is only one more piece telling us that.

The objections to Dany's vision being true amount to the reader supplanting what they expect Rhaegar's death would be like instead of Martin's version. It does not matter how noisy the battle was. The vision allows us to be there with Rhaegar and hear his murmur. Whether anyone one at the battle also heard it is besides the point. Whether the reader thinks Rhaegar should have been incapable of murmuring Lyanna's name is irrelevant. We don't see the deathblow, so substituting our judgement for Martin's is foolish. We see through the vision Rhaegar does say a name with his dying breath. The question is only is if the vision true or false, and all the evidence points to it being true.

I would love to here your evidence that a dude with a crushed in chest murmured a name that could be heard in a vision that from the get go tells us some things may not have ever happened.What is this evidence?

SfDanny this isn't readers trying to supplement anything.While this is a fantasy series the man does employ realism to situations.

Ok what we see is a vision with so many unbelievable elements it could get dumped into the "didn't happen category."

Its not Aerys in the throne room saying "let him being king over ashes."Or Rhaegar in a room with Elia singing a song.

Its Dany seeing someone( who she doesn't identify as the same dude she saw in the bedroom vision singing for the baby) whispering a woman's name.

we jump to the conclusion that this has to be Rhaegar and the woman's name whisphered has to be Lyanna.Why because the app says so.

Again,we have to look where ambigtheuity is where it shouldn't be.

 

 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I hate to be that stubborn person who keeps persisting with something, but I just thought of something:

Regarding the visions Dany received from the Undying, everyone assumes that it is Rhaegar who dies at the Trident, but what if it is actually Aegon?

Quote

When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore dagger and sword, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked as blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colours. That was good.

"You look a proper prince," he told the boy. "Your father would be proud if he saw you."

The Lost Lord

aDwD

Could it be that the prince Dany saw was Aegon?

After all, Rhaegar was smashed by Robert's warhammer and most likely fell backwards (off a horse, if the picture in the World Book is to be believed), but the prince in Dany's vision sunk to his knees and there is no description of a warhammer smashing into him.

 

Edit: Also, Dany says that the prince whispers a woman's name, but she doesn't say what name.

Now obviously, GRRM wouldn't include the name, because otherwise if the name would be Lyanna, then R+L=J would be obvious, but I still find it rather strange that Dany doesn't say the name.

She already knows about Rhaegar and Lyanna, so if the prince is indeed Rhaegar and the name on his lips is indeed Lyanna, why doesn't she recognise it?

Because of this, I believe that the name on the prince's lips is a name that Dany doesn't know, hence why she simply says "a woman's name on his lips".

[wolfmaid7]

18 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I hate to be that stubborn person who keeps persisting with something, but I just thought of something:

Regarding the visions Dany received from the Undying, everyone assumes that it is Rhaegar who dies at the Trident, but what if it is actually Aegon?

Could it be that the prince Dany was was Aegon?

After all, Rhaegar was smashed by Robert's warhammer and most likely fell backwards (off a horse, if the picture in the World Book is to be believed), but the prince in Dany's vision sunk to his knees and there is no description of a warhammer smashing into him.

In my edit to SFDanny  i pointed this out....We don't know if its Rhaegar.Dany who sees Rhaegar later in the vision ,and points out the similarities with Viserys previously doesn't identify him as the same dude who died in the river.People just assume its Rhaegar.Possibly the rubies flying solidifies that.

If we look back through the series this may pop up as a past scene.

[Aegon VII]

Anyone ever wonder if there's an intentional connection between rhaegar dying at the trident and whispering a lady's name and Ned sacrificing lady after the events at the trident. He says her name right before killing her. Could they be parallel sacrifices, the wolf and the dragon (esp. If RT knew he would die)? could they both had been necessary to bring about some magic? No theory here, just food for thought

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Whether you believe it or not depends on if you evaluate the evidence and find its worth, or one dismisses the evidence out of hand because one hopes beyond hope it is not true. In this instance, the evidence has mounted and mounted in support of this part of Dany's vision being true. The app entry is only one more piece telling us that.

 

It's nothing more than a snippet from a bard's tale without attributation to anyone.  Someone with his heart and chest caved in is likely to die almost immediately without the capacity to whisper anything.

Singers are an unreliable lot as any search of the text will show. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Sansa V

"And who will protect us from my guards?" The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. "Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost, my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They'll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washerwomen, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn't, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there's such a dearth of good sacking songs."

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn V

"And to you, singer," Catelyn returned. Ser Rodrik called for bread and meat and beer in a tone that meant now. The singer, a youth of some eighteen years, eyed them boldly and asked where they were going, and from whence they had come, and what news they had, letting the questions fly as quick as arrows and never pausing for an answer. "We left King's Landing a fortnight ago," Catelyn replied, answering the safest of his questions.

"That's where I'm bound," the youth said. As she had suspected, he was more interested in telling his own story than in hearing theirs. Singers loved nothing half so well as the sound of their own voices. "The Hand's tourney means rich lords with fat purses. The last time I came away with more silver than I could carry … or would have, if I hadn't lost it all betting on the Kingslayer to win the day."

 

 

Tyrion has a more jaded and perhaps realistic view of singers and their trade:

Quote

The rope chafed his wrists raw and seemed to grow tighter as the night wore on. I was about to settle down to a warm fire and a roast fowl, and that wretched singer had to open his mouth, he thought mournfully. The wretched singer had come along with them. "There is a great song to be made from this, and I'm the one to make it,"  A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Among the lords of the Vale were several of his companions from the high road; Ser Rodrik Cassel, pale from half-healed wounds, stood with Ser Willis Wode beside him. Marillion the singer had found a new woodharp. Tyrion smiled; whatever happened here tonight, he did not wish it to happen in secret, and there was no one like a singer for spreading a story near and far. A Game of Thrones - Tyrion V

"If it was music you wanted, you should have gotten the singer to champion you." A Game of Thrones - Tyrion VI

The sound swelled as he walked from the stable to the house. Tyrion had never been fond of singers, and he liked this one even less than the run of the breed, sight unseen. When he pushed open the door, the man broke off. "My lord Hand." He knelt, balding and kettle-bellied, murmuring, "An honor, an honor." A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"They do it worse than I do." It was the singer who concerned him, not the bear. One careless word in the wrong ear, and Shae would hang. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion II

Tell it to the people of this city, Tyrion thought bitterly. Tell it to the bloody singers, with their songs of Renly's ghost. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion III

Tyrion rubbed the scar over his nose, and said, "My father has no time for singers, and my sister is not as generous as one might think. A wise man could earn more from silence than from song." He could not put it much plainer than that. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

"If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I'll do is hang all the singers," said Tyrion, too loudly. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne V

Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

"Then they get a taste of battle.

 

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"When did it change?" asked Brienne."When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's nothing more than a snippet from a bard's tale without attributation to anyone.  Someone with his heart and chest caved in is likely to die almost immediately without the capacity to whisper anything.

Singers are an unreliable lot as any search of the text will show. 

 

Tyrion has a more jaded and perhaps realistic view of singers and their trade:

 

 

I'm on my phone so bear with me guys.Lynn thanks for posting this.

I don't doubt in all honesty that the dude is Rhaegar.But i think Dany's time there is an excercise in things aren't what it seems and what we believe to be so.

I asked this question when we debated the app.It saying Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips is a big reveal and easily confirmed as something GRRM actually said as being the case.

Context could be argued after the dude could have said her name in response to a question.

Lyanna?

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Whether you believe it or not depends on if you evaluate the evidence and find its worth, or one dismisses the evidence out of hand because one hopes beyond hope it is not true. In this instance, the evidence has mounted and mounted in support of this part of Dany's vision being true. The app entry is only one more piece telling us that.

I agree that there's a good chance that Dany's vision has a good chance of "being true."

But the vision doesn't say what "woman's name" the prince said. The app entry chooses the name. And the entry is written in a POV for the Maester who was writing this book for the king who killed Rhaegar in revenge for Lyanna.

That POV should make us wary. 

It seems likely to be true that Rhaegar said a woman's name.

But the very fact that Dany does;t say which name makes the "Lyanna" option suspect. We find out in Storm that Dany knows Lyanna's name really, really well.

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" Storm, Dany IV

Dany knows the story, has thought about why it happened, and volunteers the name herself. She knows that name. And she knows Elia's name really well, too--she's been thinking it since her first POV in Game.

So why does she only hear "a woman's" name?

1. Could be Martin's just being really cheap--Dany heard and recognized the name, but didn't respond to this very important name at all. Possible--but cheap. 

2. Could be somehow the "name" threaded the needle between being perceptible as a woman's name but not being perceptible for a specific name.

But in the visions, it's repeatedly shown that Dany can discern words and phrases she's never heard before. She can hear whispers. And even if she's assuming it was Lyanna's name--why wouldn't she think that? Again--this option is possible--but seems undermined by the context of how Dany understands so much else in her visions.

3. Or--the name isn't one she recognizes. Which would leave out both Lyanna and Elia. That's why it just registers as "a woman's name"--it isn't a name that matters to her. Or doesn't matter yet.

All of the above options are possible. And all would be consistent with Robert wanting to believe that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name after Robert killed him--Robert's need for vengeance fantasy is pretty hefty.

But I think in context of the visions themselves, option #3 has a lot of credibility. It would make a lot of sense.

50 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Because of this, I believe that the name on the prince's lips is a name that Dany doesn't know, hence why she simply says "a woman's name on his lips".

HA! You ninjaed me!

41 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Anyone ever wonder if there's an intentional connection between rhaegar dying at the trident and whispering a lady's name and Ned sacrificing lady after the events at the trident. He says her name right before killing her. Could they be parallel sacrifices, the wolf and the dragon (esp. If RT knew he would die)? could they both had been necessary to bring about some magic? No theory here, just food for thought

Interesting--I kind of like this. And I do think there's a parallel between Ned's killing Lady and and Ned's memory of Lyanna's death. The idea of those sacrifices matching makes some sense.

I do think that the idea that Rhaegar's saying a name may have something to do with Robb's and Jon's saying their direwolves' names. I think there's a good chance that he's saying the name of the mother of his "third head"--his next self--his looking like he's looking at Dany when he says "there must be one more."

Not the same as potential life in a direwolf, but would make a lot of sense. To me at least.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

18 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm still  at a lost when it comes to the POV of this app.It has to be similarly tainted as other unreliable info no matter what the POV the natural inclination during such an impact would be some sound befitting getting smashed in the chest with that weapon.Moreover,as pointed out many times with all that ruckus no one could hear Rhaegar  even if he whispered.I still say when he got hit, there was no sinking to any knees.He would have been flung backwards and died where he fell. 

Oft-overlooked fact: Targaryen princes, having been dealt a deadly blow, which by all laws of gods and men should've killed them on the spot, will nevertheless, against all odds, live long enough to give a plot-required speech. What can I say, I don't set the rules.

Also, the one eyewitness that would know for a fact, suggested that Rhaegar took at least some time dying, instead of flatlining the second the hammer caved in his chest:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

So, he wasn't already dead when hitting the ground.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yup, it's an example of unreliable narration, regardless of the source.  Whether you believe it or not depends on how badly you want it to be true.

That's a peculiar opinion. And false, at that. I don't want it to be true, honestly I find it a little tacky. I just see no point of it being false.

Just like, let's say, R + L = J. I'd prefer Jon to be the son of Ned Stark and Jane Doe, not being a fan of "true heir to the throne" in this particular story (and why the hell should that matter anyway? hello, the realm has real problems!), but what's there is there.

1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I hate to be that stubborn person who keeps persisting with something, but I just thought of something:

Regarding the visions Dany received from the Undying, everyone assumes that it is Rhaegar who dies at the Trident, but what if it is actually Aegon?

Have at it. I, personally, consider looking for another dying prince, rubies flying like drops of blood from his chest, as he sank to his knees in the water, a waste of time. The description is specific enough.

22 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I agree that there's a good chance that Dany's vision has a good chance of "being true."

But the vision doesn't say what "woman's name" the prince said. The app entry chooses the name. And the entry is written in a POV for the Maester who was writing this book for the king who killed Rhaegar in revenge for Lyanna.

Is it, though? I was under the impression that we got nowhere when trying to find out who (if anyone) narrated the app. Am I wrong?

[SFDanny]

I'm sorry to not being able to participate in this discussion as much as I'd like, but Thursdays are days in which I take care of family, and that means being out of town and away from computers for most of the day. 

That being said, let me respond in the limited time I have. The main question is whether or not Dany's vision of her prince dying in a river, with rubies falling from his chest, and that prince murmuring with his last breath a woman's name is a true vision or a false one. The details of the vision support it being true. We have overwhelming evidence of Rhaegar dying at the Trident in just such a manner. I could list the references in the texts that show this, but for the interest of time I will allow for attentive readers to do that for me. The rubies and the death in the river cry out that this is Rhaegar, not Aegon. The only real question is whether or not Dany's vision of the dying prince saying a woman's name as he dies is as true as the rubies and the river. Not whether or not someone at the battle heard Rhaegar's dying words. That is immaterial. Dany sees and hears the dying prince murmur the woman's name. If only the magic of the House of the Undying allows her, and the readers, this bit of information, it is still a fact she hears and sees the event.

For us, the question is whether or not it is a true vision, showing as Viserys's death is shown, a truthful view of the past, or showing something that never happened. The evidence, starting with the inclusion of the rubies and the river in the death scene, point to this being a truthful recounting of what happened. 

But that is not all. Over and over again we have, from many different points of views and views that have reason to be in conflict, evidence that points to Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. These clues mount as we go along through the books. I have cautioned against reading too much into this evidence, particularly in that it says nothing about Lyanna's feelings towards Rhaegar, but it is hard to look at it all and pretend it does not exist. Very, very likely Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and this extensive evidence provides support that it was her name he murmurs as he lays dying in the shallows of the Trident. It might make a great twist in some readers minds to have him say another name, but that is not what the evidence shows is likely. As Ser Barristan says, "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it." Those thousands very likely included Rhaegar himself as he battled Robert at the Ruby Ford of the Trident.

More tonight.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

3. Or--the name isn't one she recognizes. Which would leave out both Lyanna and Elia. That's why it just registers as "a woman's name"--it isn't a name that matters to her. Or doesn't matter yet.

Oh Sly Wren... you've got my tinfoil antennae twitching.  I'll go with a name she doesn't recognize and this is a vision of a 'morrow not yet made' since I don't think the song can be written until the story is done.  I'll peg the man in the visions with the indigo eyes and silver hair as Aegon son of Rhaegar, otherwise known as young Griff.  And the woman who so loves a good song... Sansa.    

I'll even go as far as to say that these will be the last lines of the story:

Quote

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

The third person in the room?  Tyrion....

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That's a peculiar opinion. And false, at that..

Martin has warned us time and again about his use of unreliable narrators.  Singers and maesters are being used as unreliable narrators.  Not everyone is an exemplar like Aemon, Luwin or Cressen either.  No I don't believe everything I'm being told in-story.  And that's not a peculiar opinion.  It's just not typical for this forum.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Martin has warned us time and again about his use of unreliable narrators.  Singers and maesters are being used as unreliable narrators.  Not everyone is an exemplar like Aemon, Luwin or Cressen either.  No I don't believe everything I'm being told in-story.  And that's not a peculiar opinion.  It's just not typical for this forum.

Excellent reply to nothing that I said.

Let's reiterate:

You claimed that, I'm copying and pasting here, "Whether you believe it or not depends on how badly you want it to be true.".

I answered that I didn't want it to be true, just acknowledged that it was whether I liked it or not.

And now you're trying to pretend that you never said that.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Excellent reply to nothing that I said.

Let's reiterate:

You claimed that, I'm copying and pasting here, "Whether you believe it or not depends on how badly you want it to be true.".

I answered that I didn't want it to be true, just acknowledged that it was whether I liked it or not.

And now you're trying to pretend that you never said that.

No, I'm just not interested.  People have been talking about nothing else for five years and I don't really care anymore.