Evil People

[teej6]

1 hour ago, ftheking said:

Okay. I do remember the insurance guy, he absolutely had it coming! I thought people were talking about an innocent. Why focuse on the age of that evil son of a gun?

Wrongly.

I mean I do agree.

How do you know? Because MMD said so? Lets think about this...

She was torturing him, whatever she put on him it was absolutely killing him and she told him taking it down would kill him - so devious. Most devious of all she even claimed doing anything against the pain would kill him. She was a genius.

She very much admitted that she was taking revenge and/or killing dangerous Dothraki on purpose when it was all done. Why on earth would she ever try to heal Drogo? I mean how could you even possibly approve of such an action when you describe what he did to her people? It would be like Arya giving Walder Frey her kidney so that he can live ten more years.

Yes, beacause MMD said so and we have no reason to believe she is lying there. If you've read the text you'll see she applies the poultice which causes itching for Drogo (which to me tells the wound is healing) and therefore the moron removes it. MMD even tells Dany (see my quote above) that the poultice was burning and itching because there is healing power in fire. There is no indication here that she is lying. When Dany asks MMD to bring Drogo back again you find her warning Dany and saying that death is cleaner but Dany does not listen.

IMO, the only thing MMD is guilty of is that she knew her spell would not fully heal Drogo and that he would become a vegetable and even so she went through with it. One could also argue that MMD may have known what her bloodmagic would cost Dany. Here again, she warned Dany but Dany didn't care to listen. As I said earlier, MMD's entire monologue after Drogo becoming brain dead and Rhaego being still born is her getting revenge and gloating. Even then, she does not admit she killed Drogo only that she knew he wouldn't heal the way Dany wanted him to with her spell and that she knew the spell would cost Dany her unborn child's life. Nowhere in the text does it say that MMD intentionally tried to kill Drogo. And MMD freely admits to her other crimes -- like knowing her spell wouldn't really bring Drogo back to life as Dany wanted or that she knew her spell would kill Rhaego. So why not admit to killing Drogo with poison poultice? Because she didn't do it. Even Dany doesn't accuse her of that. All that you've said above is just your assumptions that is not backed by textual evidence.

[Traverys]

15 hours ago, ftheking said:

Am I the first one to mention Mel??

As much as I dislike Melisandre, her actions are guided by religious custom. She doesn't burn people for pleasure. She even considers death by fire as the purest death, so in her fanatical way she probably sees herself as inflicting a kind good on her victims.

 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

As for MMD, she did try and save Drogo's life initially by applying a poultice on his wound but the savage rapist removed it and got the wound infected through his own stupidity. (“I made him a poultice of firepod and sting-me-not and bound it in a lambskin.” “It burned, he said. He tore it off. The herbwomen made him a new one, wet and soothing.” “It burned, yes. There is great healing magic in fire, even your hairless men know that.”). And further, when Dany asked MMD to bring Drogo back, she warned Dany it would be ugly and she would have to pay a heavy price (blood sacrifice) but Dany didn't care to listen coz bohoo she wanted her savage rapist husband back. Even then, I don't think MMD meant to kill Rhaego but stupid Jorah walked into the tent with Dany while MMD was performing the blood magic. MMD had forbidden anyone to enter the tent as death was in the tent ("Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew"). To me, MMD's entire monolgue to Dany after the fact was just her way of getting sweet revenge. Did she know Drogo would come back as a vegetable? She probably did but she did warn Dany ("There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner.") Dany was so fixated on getting her savage husband back that she  didn't care to listen. MMD was a healer and a pacifist before the savage Dothraki pillaged her village and murdered, raped, and enslaved its people. I don't know how one who has really read and understood the books can put MMD on an evil list and not Drogo -- the savage slaver who pillages, murders and rapes entire populations. There's something terribly wrong with that assessment. Can this be because Drogo is the sun and stars to the silver haired princess?

 

We both know the answer to that one. Revisionist history happens outside the books too, it seems. And good quotes to back it all up. Some are going to argue that MMD didn't give all the details, but, in the end, it's not like there was absolutely no warning. But I stand by her actions as not being evil but a reasonable response to what has happened to her. And, as you've said, it's implied that Jorah carrying her into the tent is how the blood magic affected Rhaego. So it seems like Rhaego was not an intended victim, if anyone.

But, in general, I think some people have a very iffy, elementary school definition of evil. Hardly anyone in the series has hands without blood on them through their own deeds, things they've set in motion, or things they've allowed.

Is Lady Stoneheart too much of an obvious example? While hers is a revenge story (which I have previously defended in terms of Arya, MMD, and Littlefinger), she's a bit unnatural these days and isn't really picky about whose guilty or innocent if their name is Frey or Lannister. I admit it's a stretch since, again, she's a walking corpse whose last memory was the Red Wedding. On the other hand, it could be one of the instances where (like in Wicked) someone has the appearance of evil and so it's something attributed to them.

[teej6]

15 minutes ago, Traverys said:

As much as I dislike Melisandre, her actions are guided by religious custom. She doesn't burn people for pleasure. She even considers death by fire as the purest death, so in her fanatical way she probably sees herself as inflicting a kind good on her victims.

 

We both know the answer to that one. Revisionist history happens outside the books too, it seems. And good quotes to back it all up. Some are going to argue that MMD didn't give all the details, but, in the end, it's not like there was absolutely no warning. But I stand by her actions as not being evil but a reasonable response to what has happened to her. And, as you've said, it's implied that Jorah carrying her into the tent is how the blood magic affected Rhaego. So it seems like Rhaego was not an intended victim, if anyone.

But, in general, I think some people have a very iffy, elementary school definition of evil. Hardly anyone in the series has hands without blood on them through their own deeds, things they've set in motion, or things they've allowed.

Is Lady Stoneheart too much of an obvious example? While hers is a revenge story (which I have previously defended in terms of Arya, MMD, and Littlefinger), she's a bit unnatural these days and isn't really picky about whose guilty or innocent if their name is Frey or Lannister. I admit it's a stretch since, again, she's a walking corpse whose last memory was the Red Wedding. On the other hand, it could be one of the instances where (like in Wicked) someone has the appearance of evil and so it's something attributed to them.

Yes defining someone as evil is very subjective. What's the saying? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all depends on one's viewpoint. I believe GRRM once said that even tyrants in history who've committed mass murder seldom see themselves as evil. People who commit evil acts don't go around claiming to be evil like Dr. Evil. They justify their acts in their minds and seldom see themselves as evil. GRRM in his books have very few people who commit evil acts without any sense of justification in their minds. I mentioned Drogo, but even he is a creature of his society and upbringing just as the Slavers are of theirs. Ramsay, Euron, and Gregor may fit the bill of people who commit evil acts for no particular rhyme or reason. But then again, we do not have POVs for these characters and we don't know what's going through their heads do we? 

As to your question about Lady Stoneheart, she is not human anymore and I don't know if you can apply our morality to a zombified character. 

[Traverys]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Yes defining someone as evil is very subjective. What's the saying? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all depends on one's viewpoint. I believe GRRM once said that even tyrants in history who've committed mass murder seldom see themselves as evil. People who commit evil acts don't go around claiming to be evil like Dr. Evil. They justify their acts in their minds and seldom see themselves as evil. GRRM in his books have very few people who commit evil acts without any sense of justification in their minds. I mentioned Drogo, but even he is a creature of his society and upbringing just as the Slavers are of theirs. Ramsay, Euron, and Gregor may fit the bill of people who commit evil acts for no particular rhyme or reason. But then again, we do not have POVs for these characters and we don't know what's going through their heads do we? 

As to your question about Lady Stoneheart, she is not human anymore and I don't know if you can apply our morality to a zombified character. 

And he also says that even the villains are the heroes for their side, so it's all intentionally relative. And I agree, it's the people that manage to be uniquely cruel or deprived, even beyond what's accepted by their cultures or religions, that deserve the label of evil.

[Darkstream]

On 01/05/2017 at 4:49 PM, hitman47 said:

3.mad king

Was he actually evil...or was he just mad?

[ftheking]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

As much as I dislike Melisandre, her actions are guided by religious custom. She doesn't burn people for pleasure. She even considers death by fire as the purest death, so in her fanatical way she probably sees herself as inflicting a kind good on her victims.

Yes, she's less evil than the Mountain and my post made that clear. But having any reason beyond cruelty does not automatically make one not evil. That would be a really silly definition. Also, she is actually a character who does "get off" on the suffering of others, only that she interprets it religiously. "Oh it's best for them and so beautiful when they scream and die" GROSS. Would you really excuse such a person in real life? And she is a complete bitch to Cressen, going out of her way to humiliate the old man before killing him. What lofty motivation could she have had for that?  In a thread in which the Faceless Men (who don't humiliate or torture) are repeadedly called evil not mentioning Mel is an oversight.

[Traverys]

2 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Yes, she's less evil than the Mountain and my post made that clear. But having any reason beyond cruelty does not automatically make one not evil. That would be a really silly definition. Also, she is actually a character who does "get off" on the suffering of others, only that she interprets it religiously. "Oh it's best for them and so beautiful when they scream and die" GROSS. Would you really excuse such a person in real life? And she is a complete bitch to Cressen, going out of her way to humiliate the old man before killing him. What lofty motivation could she have had for that?  In a thread in which the Faceless Men (who don't humiliate or torture) are repeadedly called evil not mentioning Mel is an oversight.

That's very true, I'll agree to that wholeheartedly.

But, of course, I'm one of the few who argued against the Faceless Men as evil. Death and killing, in that period of time, don't resonate as evil for me. I find religious fanaticism, especially the kind that inflict harm, particularly distasteful. However, I guess my personal definition about evil lies in intention. She sees her king as a messiah reborn and is playing every card she has up her sleeve to see the prophecy come true. She's one of the few people who take the threat of the Other's seriously and is taking steps to make sure humanity survives. So we have a dash of altruism thrown in as well, but with very questionable methods. To be honest, my list of evil people in the books could probably be counted using one hand.

As I said, I really don't like the character at all. The show version has grown on me a tiny little bit, but the Renly assassination really rubbed me the wrong way in both versions.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Evil is too subjective of a word. It seems we need some guidelines to make such a list. Personally I think a sadist(Ramsey) is more evil than a Macavellian type (Roose).

[Tianzi]

I'm omitting Essos cause everything in this plotline is just blurry in my memory.

1. Ramsay Bolton

2. Gregor Clegane

3. The Bloody Mummers w/o particular order (except maybe Qyburn), just a group award; I'm also not listing any minor psychos or evil minions

4. Euron Greyjoy

---

5. Littlefinger

6. Walder Frey

7. Joffrey (I know he is underage, but... yeah)

---

8. Balon Greyjoy

9. Tywin Lannister

10. Roose Bolton

11. Cersei Lannister

12. Victarion Greyjoy

 

1 to 4: Irredeemable, relatively small-scale (Euron being the exception) psychos and sadist without great ambitions. May not be the ones set on ruining kingdoms and providing chaos, but are just made of evil and little else, so the make up tht top.

5 to 7: Two of them are scumbags who more harm than the first group, but they mostly mean business (LF pimps little girls for gain, not for kick). I put Joffrey in this 'layer of evil' because of his youth, he could belong in the first.

8 to 12: Nothing particularly reedemable about this lot too, but those are the people who usually have no goal to do evil, though won't even blink if doing it suits them ('is necessary' is too big of a phrase). Tywin is higher than Cersei because everything she's done (torture, infanticide, false framing, murders of innocent) he would obviously do too if it had merit for him - and he's saner than her + he was her role model.

[Helikzhan]

Most of the so-called evil characters in the story are shaped so beyond their choosing. We don't know Ramsey's backstory other than he was an ambitious bastard. Gregor is generally considered evil but we know his giant disorder also gave him constant migraines. Ever had a migraine? Eventually you'd hate the world, too. The rest of them are kinda the same. Even Baelish in his scheming could be reasoned was shaped. 

 

Nothing really happens or changes on its own in Westeros. No different than the real world.

 

[snow is the man]

hang on how is arya on that list? She is a grey area if there ever was one. And the faceless men are assasins basically the same as mercenaries. Bron is not a good guy but I don't see him as evil by game of throne standards.

 

And while I hate that magi that killed dany's kid you have to put robert on that list as well since he wanted to kill her and her unborn child. Tywin is an evil man as well. YEs tywin may have a reason for doing the things he did but he is still evil.

 

and HOW is mance rayder on there.

[snow is the man]

If I had to say the top ten most evil characters in game of thrones I would put (not in the order)

1.ramsey

2.the brave companions

3.tywin

4.the dothraki blood rider that raped that girl (can't remember his name).

5.the slavers. (not just because they are slavers but the things they do like put three orphan boys covered in different thing with a bear to see which the bear would eat first.)

6.joffrey

7.cersei (she enjoys hurting other people in addition to be extremly selfish).

8.janos slynt

9.alistar thorne. (he may not be powerful but he enjoys causing pain and misery).

gregor clegane

 

There are alot of others that I can't remember but those are the ones I chose.

 

[Armand Gargalen]

16 hours ago, Helikzhan said:

Most of the so-called evil characters in the story are shaped so beyond their choosing. We don't know Ramsey's backstory other than he was an ambitious bastard. Gregor is generally considered evil but we know his giant disorder also gave him constant migraines. Ever had a migraine? Eventually you'd hate the world, too. The rest of them are kinda the same. Even Baelish in his scheming could be reasoned was shaped.

 

I am happy someone finally said this. I find people too eager to stick the "evil" label on people they do not really understand or know well enough. Actually, I am of the opinion than no-one is truly "evil", what is a word I dislike because it is generally used to dehumanize the "evil" guy, who can therefore be killed without a pang of guilt.

I abhor violence in any form, and from my point of view, many characters´ actions are clearly wrong. And yes, it includes the actions of every character named in this post, but let´s not fall into the ethical trap of just defining the actors as "evil".

Some other characters who have not been mentioned have also committed terrible acts. Let´s use Tyrion as an example. Many of his actions throughout the books, including ordering a singer murdered, threatening to rape his nephew, slaying his own father and his "lover", terrorizing slave, can be seen as "evil" by not only us modern readers, but also by his literary peers. But because GRRM has given us his POV, we can understand his actions better, and even if we not condone them, we can at least understand and empathize with him. So maybe, instead of sticking "evil" labels, we should try to do the same thing for all the other characters who have not been given that privilege by the author, and, even better, for the people in the real world.

[Armand Gargalen]

And just to question some people´s moral compass, I will make my own list of "evil" people.

1. Renly Baratheon. He started a war, fully understanding than thousands would die, just so he could be king. Soooo cool

2. Robb Stark. Same deed, different reason: to avenge a dead father, who the deaths of thousands , as Cat pointed out, could never bring back.

3. Daenerys Targarien. She committed violence during a business meeting, ordered the butchery of a whole city (or at least 1/5 of its population. She later nailed slavers, regardless of their guilt or innocence, to crosses. And just start to imagine what she will do to sit on that loved iron chair of her.

[Darkstream]

...And what about Tommen? If he had his way, he would personally see to the genocidal extermination of all beats throughout the entire kingdom.

Anyone who had tasted my dear ol' grandma's borscht would agree that that would be an atrociously evil act.

[Armand Gargalen]

57 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

...And what about Tommen? If he had his way, he would personally see to the genocidal termination of all beats throughout the entire kingdom.

Anyone who had tasted my dear ol' grandma's borscht would agree that that would be an atrociously evil act.

Is "vetegalocide" even a word?

[The Wolves]

17 hours ago, Helikzhan said:

Most of the so-called evil characters in the story are shaped so beyond their choosing. We don't know Ramsey's backstory other than he was an ambitious bastard. Gregor is generally considered evil but we know his giant disorder also gave him constant migraines. Ever had a migraine? Eventually you'd hate the world, too. The rest of them are kinda the same. Even Baelish in his scheming could be reasoned was shaped. 

 

Nothing really happens or changes on its own in Westeros. No different than the real world.

 

I don't like the idea that these characters are shaped "beyond their choosing" it's used to excuse their heinous acts. 

We all have choices and many of the characters that are considered "evil" have had many especially considering many of them are part of that .1% of the elite(yes even Littlefinger, Ramsey, Gregor, etc..)that are privileged and above those small folks who suffer because of their greed, anger, arrogance, hate, etc.. 

People go through all kinds of hell every day yet not all or many turn out to be pieces of shit who wants to destroy everything. So what if Gregor suffers migraines, I have chronic migraines yet I'm not out there smashing babies heads against the walls or raping women and children. So Littlefinger didn't get the girl, many men are rejected daily by the women of their dreams yet they don't go and attack that woman's family, isolate and obsess over her daughter, or start a civil war. So Tywin's family was laughed at, people are laughed and humiliated daily yet they don't go off and overcompensate by taking everything as a slight and being a petty evil bitch like Tywin. 

Look at what these asshole nobles have done to the smallfolk dragging them into their petty Game of Thrones year after year after year yet you don't see them being monstrous assholes that take that anger out at the world because of little petty shit that everyone deals with every got damn day. 

[Helikzhan]

6 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Look at what these asshole nobles have done to the smallfolk dragging them into their petty Game of Thrones year after year after year yet you don't see them being monstrous assholes that take that anger out at the world because of little petty shit that everyone deals with every got damn day. 

 

Robb Stark has. Ned Stark has. Robert Baratheon has. 

Are they evil, too?

Is Sandor Clegane not evil by your own measuring stick? What about all the other characters who have no nobility? 

I think it important to point out that for all the characters in the book, evil is most ascribed to characters we know the least about. That is no coincidence. 

[Darkstream]

34 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

Is "vetegalocide" even a word?

Heh, heh!

I am sending out a request to Emmanuel Lewis right now, in an attempt to have it added to the next edition of the dictionary.

[The Wolves]

32 minutes ago, Helikzhan said:

 

Robb Stark has. Ned Stark has. Robert Baratheon has. 

Are they evil, too?

Is Sandor Clegane not evil by your own measuring stick? What about all the other characters who have no nobility? 

I think it important to point out that for all the characters in the book, evil is most ascribed to characters we know the least about. That is no coincidence. 

Robb Stark is one of the only few who justifiably started a war for the right reasons. 

I don't like Robert's Rebellion and don't justify it but Ned and Robert had a right to defend themselves plus Aerys and Jon started that war. 

And yes I consider Sandor Clegane evil for running down a child and slicing him in half, hopefully he dies a very painful death soon. 

And knowing more about said characters will not make them less evil or more understanding in my eyes. GRRM could write 100 books about Tywin and I'll still think he's evil for Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Tysha, Kings Landing, the Riverland smallfolk, Tyrion, the innocent Reyne and Tarbeck household and babies, for creating Jaime and Cersei and other horrible evil Im sure he has committed but we don't know about. Tywin was evil, no amount of information on him will ever change that same with Gregor, Ramsey, Roose, Walder, Littlefinger.