Evil People

[hitman47]

1.Tyrion Lannister

2.euron

3.mad king

[Nevets]

1.  Ramsay Bolton.  More atrocities than I can count.

2.  Gregor Clegane.  Tortures villagers to death for useless information, as well as general rape and murder.

3.  Littlefinger.  Starts wars and destroys families to get ahead.  While others do this as well, he has even worse excuses than they do.  Also puts an innocent 12-y.o. in his brothel, probably unwillingly.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Doesn't make it any less evil... And really why is the idea of the mustache twirling "evil for the evilz" villain so prevalent? Where, outside of extremely poor fiction, fan fiction or parodies does that trope even get used?

Ted Bundy would fake handicaps to lure women in his van so he could rape them, kill them, and have sex with their dead bodies. Point is, pointless evil maybe troupey but it exist. I consider guys like Bundy, Jim Jones, and Gacy more evil than a mob boss. 

Tywin may be sociopath but he's no sadist. Getting pleasure from the suffering/tourture of others is more evil to me. If someone tourtures someone for info and another tourtures because it gets their dick hard I think the scales get tipped. 

[Lord Wraith]

15 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Probably the most selfless character in the series. Even if you believe the official narrative that she killed Drogo because he was a raping murdering madman and Rhaego because he was going to be the antichrist, that's still the action of someone willing to sacrifice themselves to fight against evil.

Indeed. MMD tries to heal Drogo then he rips off the bandage and gets wasted after she said not to. Drogo killed himself.

[Traverys]

17 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

The evil psycho once threw an orange at her sister.

 

I was taking a drink when I read this and oh man my poor monitor almost got sprayed. Too funny!

I'm philosophically bent, so I think a definition of what evil is or is not in a person is the first step in making a list like this. Simply stated, my own personal definition falls along the lines of people that enjoy cruelty and suffering for its own sake (Ramsay) and lack the capacity (or desire for) empathy (Joffrey). Evil actions are a lot different than evil people, and everyone is capable of doing evil things. The people who don't have the capacity to even regret what they have done (like Theon eventually does concerning the miller's boys) are the ones that cross over from a shade of grey to black, for me at least.

Also, as someone with a graduate degree in clinical psych, I just wanted to clarify that a sociopath is a person that not only engages in "antisocial behavior" (i.e., doing bad, callous things) but also lacks a conscience (empathy) and thus displays a consistent pattern of being incapable of feeling any regret or remorse for their actions. It's also noteworthy that true sociopaths are actually not as intelligent (in the long-term) that people often assume they are, which makes Joffrey a classic illustration of a true sociopath. Tvtropes' The Sociopath page actually has a very good analysis page of real life versus hollywood/fiction.

So here is my breakdown for some of the things I have read:

• People like Littlefinger and Arya have been pushed to a point where they see things like murder and treachery as the way the world works. Their stories are both revenge stories, in my mind, which certainly doesn't fall under the category of good. However, that doesn't automatically make them evil either. Same goes for MMD, who was, at most, just trying to get revenge for her people and her temple. There's nothing to suggest she was an "evil person" to her village, just a woman reacting to what she likely saw as the evil that was inflicted on her village.
• I'm on the fence about slavers and slave masters, but do think if you list one as evil you need to list the other. Both supplier (including the Dothraki) and buyer/breeder are guilty of the same crime. Reading in passing how slavers came to the wildings at Hardhome and tricked women and children into boarding always really bothers the hell out of me, but I would argue they do these actions out of greed rather than malice. It goes back to people being capable of evil actions. You also have to remember that the cities in Slaver's Bay have a long history of slavery, so much so that it is a norm for them and all their nobility have known since they were born. They don't know a better way.
• The Faceless Men are a religious group that focus on death and they see murder as a method of offering up gifts to their many-faced god. Faceless Men, by their own history, began as mercy killers for suffering slaves of Valyria. I think stating them as evil in essence is in conflict with calling slavers/slavemasters evil. We don't know the true extent of how they come to a decision of who they will offer up to their god; clearly they have regulations in place. They very well could still be targeting people who are intimately involved in the slave trade. We don't have enough information.
• Euron is the only Greyjoy I would feel comfortable calling evil. The Ironborn, encourage a culture that glorifies cruel things like reaving and raping and committing people to forced servitude (thralls). However, Euron specifically has a cruel streak and we know that he has done it for his own amusement, specifically towards Victarion. Also, without going into specifics, we learn in a sample TWOW chapter about his treatment towards two people in the past and one person in the present that is nothing less than evil, in my opinion.
• Mance Raydar is an odd mention... I don't even know what the arguments for him being evil would be. He's trying to save an entire culture from extinction and there's only one way for him to get south of the wall.
• Tywin Lannister... Just no. He is a complicated man. He will do anything it takes to maintain his family's power and influence, but he never is described as taking pleasure in it. He has a cruel streak regarding Tyrion, but he's never described as smiling or taunting.
• Cersei... I could go on for pages about her. While she is obviously a bad person, in some ways she tries to emulate her father, or at least how she perceives him. She's capable of evil actions, obviously, and she'd take pleasure in seeing people she despises suffer (Tyrion and Sansa). However, her motivations are what indicate to me that she is a person and not a monster. For example, even though she supplies Qyburn with "subjects" for his experiments, she describes herself as feeling disturbed by the screaming and what Qyburn implies their fate to be. Let's be honest: Joffrey and Ramsay would ask to participate. Cersei sends the women to Qyburn because he provides a convenient and safe outlet to ridding herself of threats to her rule. She likely pushed Melara down the well out of panic due to the prophecy and not because she took pleasure in her death. She even gives us a flash of guilt about Melara during her walk of shame when she sees Melara's "accusing eyes." So Cersei is not a good person by any stretch of the imagination, but she's a character that chooses to do evil things and not inherently evil.

And what about:

• Roose Bolton is likely guilty of the same variety of crimes his bastard son is, but he is intelligent enough to keep them as hidden as possible. The callousness he displays when relaying the story of Ramsay's conception to Theon is a chilling moment.
• Aerys II may also qualify, at least in his later years. He takes pleasure in watching people burn, which is also reported to arouse him and lead to him visiting his wife's room and having what is implied to be abusive sex. However, insanity/mental illness is an iffy thing in regards to someone being truly "evil."
• Mandon Moore is implied to be an evil person, but there is little proof to back it up. Sansa and Tyrion note his lifeless eyes and Jaime names him the most dangerous man in the KG. Following orders to kill Tyrion doesn't necessarily qualify him as evil, though there is a possibility that he was acting on his own accord.
• Little Walder Frey was always a little brat, but he seems to be taken by Ramsay's influence which ultimately scares his little cousin Big Walder.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Well how do you define evil? Tywin has people killed but he does it as a means to an end. 

Dothraki would be at the top of the list. They love to simply kill and rape and destroy for a good time. When Dany tries to talk Drogo into going to Westeros he's like "why? there are many to kill and rape without crossing poison water"

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well how do you define evil? Tywin has people killed but he does it as a means to an end. 

Same goes for Sauron, Palpatine, and many other card-carrying villains. "Evil" doesn't have to mean "random".

[winter daughter]

6 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well how do you define evil? Tywin has people killed but he does it as a means to an end. 

What about Tysha? He had her gang raped by his guards and then forced Tyrion to participate just because he wanted to teach his teenage son a lesson.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

What about Tysha? He had her gang raped by his guards and then forced Tyrion to participate just because he wanted to teach his teenage son a lesson.

As terrible as it is that was the means to the end. He wanted to make a point to Tyrion that he couldn't go running off and marrying who he wanted. I think part of the reason he made such a spectacle out of it was to show Jamie what would happen if he ever decided to do the same. Else Jamie might have married some girl in the Riverlands were he was warring and get killed at the wedding. 

Listen Tywin isn't a good person by any means but he doesn't go killing and raping for no reason. He does terrible stuff but there is always a reason behind it. He sent the Mountain to rape the Riverlands to send a message to the Tullys for Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion. 

[Targaryen Restoration]

1. Mirri
2. Theon
3. Ramsey

[Damon_Tor]

15 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Rhaego was an innocent.  It was wrong to murder him no matter how you look at it.  This is just as bad as the murder of Princess Rhaenys and her mother.  It is a lot worse than the red wedding.

You're given a time machine. You can go back in time and kill Hitler in the womb. Do you do it? You can quibble and say that she didn't know the prophecy about Rhaego would come true for sure, but remember she was a student of Marwyn's. She knows what she's talking about.

But all of that's a moot point: she didn't kill anybody. Rhaego isn't even dead.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

I just wanted to add my voice to the the idea that MMD is not evil. Let's forget the prophecy for a second say she did it strictly out of revenge. That alone, although morally questionable, is not enough for me to view her as straight evil. 

[Lion of the West]

My top three are:

Littlefinger

Varys

Ramsay/Gregor - tie between these two

[The Commentator]

19 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Mance Rayder betrayed the Night's Watch and killed many of his sworn brothers.  He's bad at taking orders.  He's an oathbreaker.  He deserves to be on that list.

It really is a pity that people forget this.  Mance Rayder was a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  He was a skilled ranger but also had trouble following rules.  He chose to betray his brothers and their order rather than follow his superior officer's directions to wear his uniform properly.  Mance is charming but he is a bad man, a vow-breaker, murderer, and a villain. 

[Daemon the Leaner]

1) Vargo hoat

2) Ramsay

3) Gregor fckin Clegane

[CornishDornish]

Let's play D&D morality (sue me).

Lawful evil

Tywin Lannister - super controlling to the point of sadism and knowingly used terror tactics during TWOTFK

Roose Bolton - Loves his quiet and peaceful land so he can get on with his fox hunting with a little rape on the side

The Slavers - All they care about is money. Humans are just tools and resources to be bought and sold

Neutral evil

Littlefinger - Only cares about number one and changes loyalties at the drop of a hat

Chaotic evil

Ramsay Bolton - where to begin?

Gregor clegane - The frothing dog of the westerlands. Along with his "pet rats" who are just as bad.

Euron Greyjoy - maddest of them all and a paedophile to boat.

 

[ftheking]

Wait what old man are you referring to that Arya murdered?

I disagree with her murder of Dareon. That is the only thing I ever disliked that she did. It doesn't put her anywhere near the evil list. It shows her to be something between a stupid child and traumatized slightly above breaking point. She thought she had to punish him in her father's honor. Crazy, barely evil. If you count Arya, you have to count all the slightly grey characters and the lists becomes a joke.

Though really, what old man?

MMD is not evil either. You can call her killing of Dany's still innocent fetus wrong, but she had very understandable reasons for doing so and for believing it's right. It is a moral dilemma. So at best morally grey.

Quote

MMD tries to heal Drogo then he rips off the bandage and gets wasted after she said not to. Drogo killed himself

Friend, she lied. (Or did I miss your sarcasm?)

 

Most evil:

Ramsay, Euron, Mountain + crew, Bloody mummers, Amory Lorch, Roose

Also very evil:

Melisandre, LF, Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Victarion, Walder Frey

Am I the first one to mention Mel??

[Prof. Cecily]

The Ticker

Euron Greyjoy

Vargo Hoat

I'd include Arya. I find her most engaging, but she's a cold-blooded killer.

[teej6]

13 hours ago, ftheking said:

Though really, what old man?

Friend, she lied. 

To all the posters accusing Arya of killing an "old man", I recommend you read the The Ugly Little Girl chapter in ADWD. The so called old man is an insurance agent who sells insurance to merchant captains in case their vessels get lost, and we are told does not always keep his end of the bargain to the families of those captains if and when the ships are lost at sea. Oh yes, he is a poor old man. It is implied one such captain who lost everything and was cheated by this crook was the one who ordered the hit. As for Arya, she is send to kill this man by the FM as part of her training, she is not doing this randomly. Even so, she tries to understand who the insurance agent is and justify his killing based on the fact that in her mind he is an evil person. This shows that Arya has not lost her humanity and still is conflicted in killing people.

Arya's killing of Dareon, on the other hand, can perhaps be viewed negatively. In this case again, she seems to have justified the killing in her head by identifying Dareon as a deserter of the NW and she is donning the role of her father (rightly or wrongly). Again, the writer goes to great lengths to portray Dareon as a total scum. So I don't believe it's GRRM intent to project Arya as evil rather as a traumatized child surviving through any means in a world she identifies as cruel and full of pain and suffering. GRRM has compared Arya's story to the lives of child soldiers in war torn countries. Arya, to me, is one of the most empathic characters in the books and can put herself in the shoes of the commin man. She is honest to a fault and has great intergrity. She can also show great compassion and loyalty. She mothered Weasel and took care of her when being a child herself. Calling Arya evil just goes to show how skewed some people's views are. Arya is not evil by any stretch of the word. 

As for MMD, she did try and save Drogo's life initially by applying a poultice on his wound but the savage rapist removed it and got the wound infected through his own stupidity. (“I made him a poultice of firepod and sting-me-not and bound it in a lambskin.” “It burned, he said. He tore it off. The herbwomen made him a new one, wet and soothing.” “It burned, yes. There is great healing magic in fire, even your hairless men know that.”). And further, when Dany asked MMD to bring Drogo back, she warned Dany it would be ugly and she would have to pay a heavy price (blood sacrifice) but Dany didn't care to listen coz bohoo she wanted her savage rapist husband back. Even then, I don't think MMD meant to kill Rhaego but stupid Jorah walked into the tent with Dany while MMD was performing the blood magic. MMD had forbidden anyone to enter the tent as death was in the tent ("Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew"). To me, MMD's entire monolgue to Dany after the fact was just her way of getting sweet revenge. Did she know Drogo would come back as a vegetable? She probably did but she did warn Dany ("There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner.") Dany was so fixated on getting her savage husband back that she  didn't care to listen. MMD was a healer and a pacifist before the savage Dothraki pillaged her village and murdered, raped, and enslaved its people. I don't know how one who has really read and understood the books can put MMD on an evil list and not Drogo -- the savage slaver who pillages, murders and rapes entire populations. There's something terribly wrong with that assessment. Can this be because Drogo is the sun and stars to the silver haired princess?

[ftheking]

Okay. I do remember the insurance guy, he absolutely had it coming! I thought people were talking about an innocent. Why focuse on the age of that evil son of a gun?

Quote

she seems to have justified the killing in her head by identifying Dareon as a deserter of the NW and she is donning the role of her father (rightly or wrongly)

Wrongly.

I mean I do agree.

Quote

As for MMD, she did try and save Drogo's life initially by applying a poultice on his wound

How do you know? Because MMD said so? Lets think about this...

She was torturing him, whatever she put on him it was absolutely killing him and she told him taking it down would kill him - so devious. Most devious of all she even claimed doing anything against the pain would kill him. She was a genius.

She very much admitted that she was taking revenge and/or killing dangerous Dothraki on purpose when it was all done. Why on earth would she ever try to heal Drogo? I mean how could you even possibly approve of such an action when you describe what he did to her people? It would be like Arya giving Walder Frey her kidney so that he can live ten more years.