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What would Eddard have done if Brandon lived?


Canon Claude

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From nearly the very beginning, we're told that Eddard wishes he hadn't needed to become Lord of Winterfell. But my question is, what would he have done instead?

Assume that Rickard dies, but Brandon was kept in the black cells until he was liberated by Eddard. Because Brandon wasn't executed, Catelyn and Hoster wait to see if Brandon can be liberated, and so Brandon comes back, marries Catelyn, and takes up the post of Lord Stark of Winterfell. What does Eddard do? Would he have followed Benjen to the Wall? Would he have taken up a holdfast and formed a cadet branch? Would he have become Robert's Hand from the start? He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be very happy doing anything, but what seems like the most realistic thing he would do?

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If we can assume that he still winds up with "Jon Snow" in his possession (I don't see why not) then he would have been able to raise him (still pretending he's his bastard, I suspect) with more devotion and care, and without the issue of Cat's resentment and the weird relationship he had with his siblings.

Maybe he would have joined Robert in King's landing, but it seems more likely he would have taken Jon away from Robert, just in case. I like to think he would have chosen Bear Island for being remote, and may have chosen to marry Dacey Mormont. How would the slaver scandal with Jorah have gone with Brandon as the Lord Warden of the North and Eddard as Jorah's brother-in-law? Would Jorah have even tried to turn to slaving with Ned living on Bear Island? Hard to say, but it would be an interesting situation, with Ned married to Dacey Mormont, he would stand to gain a great deal of influence on Bear Island if Jorah departs, even if they are more progressive about female rule leaving Dacy as the head of state.

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15 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

If we can assume that he still winds up with "Jon Snow" in his possession (I don't see why not) then he would have been able to raise him (still pretending he's his bastard, I suspect) with more devotion and care, and without the issue of Cat's resentment and the weird relationship he had with his siblings.

Maybe he would have joined Robert in King's landing, but it seems more likely he would have taken Jon away from Robert, just in case. I like to think he would have chosen Bear Island for being remote, and may have chosen to marry Dacey Mormont. How would the slaver scandal with Jorah have gone with Brandon as the Lord Warden of the North and Eddard as Jorah's brother-in-law? Would Jorah have even tried to turn to slaving with Ned living on Bear Island? Hard to say, but it would be an interesting situation, with Ned married to Dacey Mormont, he would stand to gain a great deal of influence on Bear Island if Jorah departs, even if they are more progressive about female rule leaving Dacy as the head of state.

 

I really like this theory, but I think there is also a chance he would have ended up in the Vale, living a normal tranquil life with a wife chosen (or arranged) by Jon Arryn.

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We know too little about Brandon to say with certainty what kind of Lord Paramount he would have been, but it seems like a safe bet to say he would have rewarded his brother handsomely for winning the war and saving his (Brandon's) bacon.

There are tons of acres of open land around the Gift and New Gift, and putting a Eddard in charge there would suit everyone's interests. Alternatively, Barbary Dustin is single and believed she was going to marry Ned before Brandon died in the real timeline, but how she would react to jon Snow is anyone's guess.

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I think he would have married Ashara Dayne and raised Jon Snow as their son. Since Daynes were Rhaegar's closest allies, I doubt Ashara did not know about Jon's parentage and would have been a mother figure unlike Catelyn. Ned might have taken her and Jon with him to the North, or they might have stayed at Starfall, or maybe Jon Arryn would have asked his foster son and his new family to stay in the Eyrie and perform some duties there while Jon served as Hand of the King in King's Landing.

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I think you guys are uh, leaving a few stones unturned here. So Rickard stays dead and Brandon is in the black cells.

Hoster joins the rebellion due to two marriages, Catelyn to Eddard and Lysa to Jon. He most likely won't be joining unless Eddard marries Cat. There's both the consummated marriage aspect (cannot be annulled or set aside) AND the fact it gives the IT more leverage over Hoster if his daughter remains betrothed to the new LP and lord of house stark. So that would make Jon marry Lysa and Eddard marry Cat (again). 

Brandon can be married off to Cersei -- oh the fun -- and Robert can be married to someone who be less likely to cuckold and murder him. I'll prolly add to this later.

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6 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

 I like to think he would have chosen Bear Island for being remote, and may have chosen to marry Dacey Mormont. How would the slaver scandal with Jorah have gone with Brandon as the Lord Warden of the North and Eddard as Jorah's brother-in-law? Would Jorah have even tried to turn to slaving with Ned living on Bear Island? Hard to say, but it would be an interesting situation, with Ned married to Dacey Mormont, he would stand to gain a great deal of influence on Bear Island if Jorah departs, even if they are more progressive about female rule leaving Dacy as the head of state.

Does that age timeline work out? Dacey was potentially far too young to marry Ned. She was basically Robb Stark's Brienne IIRC

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I think you guys are uh, leaving a few stones unturned here. So Rickard stays dead and Brandon is in the black cells.

Hoster joins the rebellion due to two marriages, Catelyn to Eddard and Lysa to Jon. He most likely won't be joining unless Eddard marries Cat. There's both the consummated marriage aspect (cannot be annulled or set aside) AND the fact it gives the IT more leverage over Hoster if his daughter remains betrothed to the new LP and lord of house stark. So that would make Jon marry Lysa and Eddard marry Cat (again). 

Brandon can be married off to Cersei -- oh the fun -- and Robert can be married to someone who be less likely to cuckold and murder him. I'll prolly add to this later.

Hoster has even more reason to join the rebellion if he can help save Brandon Stark. And if Brandon dies, then sure, marry Ned to Cat, but I believe saving Brandon would be sufficient reason to join, especially with Jon marrying Lysa.

But to answer the question, I think Ned would have likely taken Jon Snow to the Wall with Benjen. He was clearly so jaded from the war that he wouldn't want to have power anymore. He has nothing but disdain and hatred for the south, and he doesn't like the burdens of power, while also having a great respect for the Wall. But he still had that promise to keep, so he would raise Jon as his own. If it won't do to claim parenthood of Jon, he can always make up another lie about where Jon comes from. Either way, Jon would be raised as a man of the Nights Watch, Ned and Benjen would be high ranked, even as Brandon raises a family with Catelyn and serves King Robert Baratheon's family. What happens after that? Who can say.
 

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Eddard would have been relieved that he didn't have to rule the North from Winterfell.  He would have been able to marry a beautiful noble woman from the veil that he had his eye on ever since he was fostered to Jon Arryn.  Unfortunately, whenever "what-if" scenarios play out the end result is always space aliens.  Lots and lots of space aliens.

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41 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Brandon would have had him marry Ashara and have them and Jon live in Winterfell. Catelyn would think Jon was Brandon's and Ashara's and she'd hate them both. Maybe Brandon gives Ned Moat Callin after Ned tells him he's leaving because Catelyn is cruel.

 

10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I think he would have married Ashara Dayne and raised Jon Snow as their son. Since Daynes were Rhaegar's closest allies, I doubt Ashara did not know about Jon's parentage and would have been a mother figure unlike Catelyn. Ned might have taken her and Jon with him to the North, or they might have stayed at Starfall, or maybe Jon Arryn would have asked his foster son and his new family to stay in the Eyrie and perform some duties there while Jon served as Hand of the King in King's Landing.

Guys, Ashara Dayne would still be dead in the OP's storyline. She would still throw herself to her death when Ned returns the Daynes' sword to Starfall.

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13 hours ago, James Steller said:

Does that age timeline work out? Dacey was potentially far too young to marry Ned. She was basically Robb Stark's Brienne IIRC

We don't really know how old she is. Our most dedicated minds have concluded she must have been born between 253 (when her mother was 13) and 277 (one year before her sister) but beyond that there's no indication. If she was born in, say, 270, it would have made her 13 at the end of Robert's Rebellion.

EDIT: So as a reference, Dacey's younger sister Alyssane has a 9-year-old daughter. That puts the Mormont girls is an older age bracket than the Stark kids for sure. Eddard was almost certainly older than Dacey, but not by enough to be a deal breaker.

But again, the Mormont girls don't seem concerned about marriage at all, or at least have some odd customs regarding it. Maege's daughters all appear to be bastards (Mormont is her maiden name: she's never been married as far as we can tell), but they're treated as full Mormonts, not "Snows". Dacey has two children, but again, Mormont is her maiden name, so her children are either bastards or those Mormont girls are just really progressive about keeping their family name.

I suspect Mormonts are just less Andalized than the Starks are. There's a good deal of evidence that the First Men had very different marriage customs and that family names meant something different (ie, "The Wull" and "House Magnar" vs "Magnar of Thenn".)

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-  Ned would make sure that his brother isn't hurt. Then he would go to the tower of joy alone. Brandon is simply too impulsive and too protective towards Lyanna to act rationally. He's also Warden of the North and he's better off safe then dead.

- As a Warden, the clash between Dayne and him was inevitable. Dayne was the KG of a former king whose only choice was to either bend the knee or die. Ned was for Sir Arthur a traitor who lead an entire region to war against the rightful king. Things change in the alternative timeline. Ned is not warden of the North but is simply a man whose obeying his warden's orders. Ned on the other hand does not have the authority to kill any KG unless in self defense. Considering how honourable the two are, I think that Ned would be able to see his sister without having to confront Dayne

- Lyanna will probably tell Ned to keep the boy safe. However how could he achieve that? His King would kill Jon on sight. His brother would probably take the North to war to prevent it and would never call his dear sister's child a snow. In my opinion, he would fake his death (alongside Sir Arthur and the white bull) and escape to Essos with the boy. Assuming he learns that Joffrey is not Robert's son, he'll probably stay there until all true Baratheons die.

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On 5/1/2017 at 1:17 PM, Canon Claude said:

From nearly the very beginning, we're told that Eddard wishes he hadn't needed to become Lord of Winterfell. But my question is, what would he have done instead?

Assume that Rickard dies, but Brandon was kept in the black cells until he was liberated by Eddard. Because Brandon wasn't executed, Catelyn and Hoster wait to see if Brandon can be liberated, and so Brandon comes back, marries Catelyn, and takes up the post of Lord Stark of Winterfell. What does Eddard do? Would he have followed Benjen to the Wall? Would he have taken up a holdfast and formed a cadet branch? Would he have become Robert's Hand from the start? He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be very happy doing anything, but what seems like the most realistic thing he would do?

I think it's Ned's destiny to clean up after Brandon.  I believe the Starks were planning rebellion before Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.  So if they win Brandon becomes Hand.  He will do a piss poor job and Ned will somehow have to clean up after him.  Somebody will end up killing Brandon.  He's too hotheaded and just like Joff, somebody will poison him with the Tears of Lys. 

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This raises a lot of questions.

Would Brandon have taken over the army from Eddard after he was freed.  Ned was in charge of Robert's army (because Robert was injured at the Trident) and Brandon was Ned's older brother.  Brandon would have wanted to take charge, Howland Reed described him as "the Wild Wolf" so he would have wanted to get into the fight if he was physically able.  If Brandon had been treated as a noble captive he would have been healthy and would have tried to take charge of the army from Eddard, and Ned probably would have let him.  If Brandon had been consigned to the black cells, like the OP assumes, Brandon's health would have been poor and he would have been unable to take control of the army from Ned.  Brandon probably would have been treated like a noble prisoner, but the OP's hypothetical assumes he's in the black cells so that's what I'll assume for this hypothetical.

Ned would still have liberated Storm's End and then traveled on to the Tower of Joy to rescue Lyanna.  Lyanna would have died and Ned would have, presumably, made the same promise to Lyanna.

In the original story line Ned then traveled to Starfall with Jon and the sword Dawn.  That might still happen.  It's not at all clear what happened between Ashara and Ned at Starfall.  We do know that the Daynes respected Ned enough to name Edrick Dayne after him.  Ashara presumably committed suicide after Ned talked to her in the original version, but the evidence that she died was pretty weak and her motivation was never explained.  We know Ned had feelings for Ashara and we know that Ashara sought out a Stark after she was dishonored at Harrenhal (at least Selmy thinks so), but we don't really know what the relationship, if any, between Ned and Ashara was.  It's possible that Ashara doesn't kill herself and she and Ned Marry, but, while it's clear Ned liked Ashara, it's not clear she felt the same.

Ned did a good job of hiding Jon's parentage in the original story, but I think his devotion to duty would have forced him to let Brandon know that Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's son.  While Ned was cautious and wanted to avoid conflict with his friend, Robert, I think the Wild Wolf, Brandon, might have sought to ensure that his nephew received his birthright.  Brandon may very well have acknowledged Jon as Rhaegar's heir and named him king.  It's not clear how Robert, Jon Arryn, and Tywin would have reacted to this.  But Brandon + the Tully's naming an infant the king would probably have started a second civil war.

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To answer the simple question, Ned would have married at his brother's behest. I would go with marrying someone not from the North, simply to help build alliances with the new kingdoms, so I could see Ned being married off to someone from the Reach, or Dorne, the same way Stannis was.

If he is still saddled with baby Jon, then he would have tried to keep Jon away from King's Landing, so probably Dorne. If he is not saddled with Jon, then Ned may very well have taken up a position at court. Master of Laws, perhaps?

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Brandon gets rescued from the Black cells after the sack. He insists to join Ned to the Tower of Joy (I'm her brother as much as you! Hell, she spent more time together with me than you, you were in the Eyrie!). Assuming he survives the "And now it ends", he learns about Jon. They go to Starfall (also because he knows about Ned and Ashara). Ashara is sad because her brother is dead but doesn't commit suicide because Ned didn't marry Cat. Brandon, Ned, Ashara and Howland keep Jon's parentage secret. Ned and Ashara marry and raises Jon as Ned's bastard. They are invited to stay at Winterfell by Brandon, but Ned prefers to stay with either Robert in King's Landing or at the Eyrie to take over duties Jon Arryn can't because he's Hand. 

Dornish Ashara prefers KL than the Eyrie (too cold?), so Ned moves to KL. He helps Jon Arryn check on Robert's "kinging", so Littlefinger probably doesn't embezzle as much as he did OTL.... I can go on and on.  

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This alternative timeline is structurally weak. If Brandon is alive, then we assume Rickard is alive. Brandon was the one who committed treason so why on earth would Aerys kill the father and keep the son alive? If both are alive then Ned will find it very hard to raise an army. As third in line he would be seen as someone whose willing to sacrifice most of his family (Lyanna included) to get control over the North. Aerys has enough men to force either Rickard or Brandon to write a letter ordering the North to stand down.  If that happens then Ned is basically fecked.


It’s more realistic to think that Rickard died of a heart attack following Lyanna’s kidnap and Brandon’s arrest. Rickard was relatively old for medieval standards and a noble’s life wasn’t the healthiest of lives. In that case, Ned would still be able to raise an army (although I believe it would be somehow smaller than the one raised in the official timeline). That would lead us to the second stumbling block ie the Riverlands. In the current timeline Hoster joins the rebellion after making sure that his two daughters had tied the knot with two Wardens. If Hoster is ordered by Aerys to stand down then he would probably obey especially if it supported by Brandon (tortures work in a magnificent way).  The Tullys have no quarrels with the Targs. Quite contrary, the Targs made the Tullys LP of the Riverlands. Why on earth would they rebel? There’s a workaround to that. Its possible for Northern lords to convince the Riverlands major allies to join them through marriages. If the Freys, the Brackens and the Blackwoods join the rebellion then the Tullys would have a choice between joining the rebellion or risk getting overwhelmed by it. 


Assuming that happens, the first thing we need to acknowledge is the grievances many Northern Lords would have towards the gallant fool. Brandon had let the North down. His stupidity costed the North of their leader (Rickard) and had complicated things with a potential ally (the Riverlands). Some might be forced to have sons and daughters married to Riverlands bannermen to smoothen up the path to KL. All of this occurred because the idiot decided to take on KL by himself. Many Lords would voice their anger publically and it will be hard for Ned to keep it down. Because of it, the North might be more aggressive (war keeps rebellion talks down), which would lead to more victories, which would lead to Lords overrating Ned as opposed to his stupid brother. 2-3 victories might be enough for good old Ned to have his own ‘king in the North’ moment with many Lords declaring him as Warden of the North ahead of his brother.


Irrespective on Ned’s status, the wolf will reach KL with a lot of ‘Davos like’ allies. That means that if he wants to keep his brother out of the picture regarding Lyanna and go solo then he would possible be able to do so. Which I suspect is exactly what Ned would do.  The reason to that is quite simple. By the time the battle at the trident and KL is sacked, Ned have come to the realisation of two things. First of all, that Sir Arthur Dayne is missing. Secondly that maybe Lyanna’s kidnap wasn’t a kidnap at all. She might have gone with Rhaegar willingly or/and she might also be with child. Considering that Brandon is fiercely protective towards his sister + Robert is inflexible towards the Targs then he’s better off investigating the issue himself before allowing his brother to fudge things up. The last thing he would want is for his brother to go toe to toe with either Robert or Dayne in some sort of duel, especially since he probably believe that the wild wolf won’t live to tell the tale. 


So here’s my timeline
a-    Ned still goes to the tower of joy without his brother
b-    Because of it, he might be able to negotiate his way in to the tower of joy (Read my justification in the previous post)
c-    He’ll probably fake his own death and escape with the remaining KG (if they are still alive) and some of his friends to Essos with the boy. Reed and co will be persuaded to lie on his behalf. After all the North doesn't need two competing Starks (one is a Lord by right and the other by merit) and the kingdom certainly does not need another potential civil war. 
 

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On 5/1/2017 at 10:17 AM, Canon Claude said:

From nearly the very beginning, we're told that Eddard wishes he hadn't needed to become Lord of Winterfell. But my question is, what would he have done instead?

Assume that Rickard dies, but Brandon was kept in the black cells until he was liberated by Eddard. Because Brandon wasn't executed, Catelyn and Hoster wait to see if Brandon can be liberated, and so Brandon comes back, marries Catelyn, and takes up the post of Lord Stark of Winterfell. What does Eddard do? Would he have followed Benjen to the Wall? Would he have taken up a holdfast and formed a cadet branch? Would he have become Robert's Hand from the start? He really doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be very happy doing anything, but what seems like the most realistic thing he would do?

Impossible. Eddard couldn't liberate Brandon because 
1: The Stark/Tully/Arryn alliance was needed to defeat the royal levies. 
2: Brandon would be used by Aerys as Ned approached the capital. Aerys madness would require him to kill Brandon as Ned and Tywin approached

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