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Did Theon murder his children?


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Sorry if this has been discussed (I'm sure it has) but what do y'all think about the possibility that the children Theon murdered in place of Bran and Rickon were his own offspring. I know we have no way of knowing. Our only evidence is that he claimed to have had sex with their mother at some point. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter. He does seem to be cursed in the eyes of gods and men. 

Thanks 

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I know Theon was banging the Miller's wife but I am not 100% sure when he started. I think only the younger kid was born after he started banging her but I could be wrong. It could be his kid, could be the millers we really have no way of knowing.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I know Theon was banging the Miller's wife but I am not 100% sure when he started. I think only the younger kid was born after he started banging her but I could be wrong. It could be his kid, could be the millers we really have no way of knowing.

I agree. Know way of knowing. Most likely they are the millers. After my most recent reread, the possibility popped into my head. He seems pretty damn cursed. 

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I always thought the possibility was put there in a Martin-esque manner.  In A Dance with Dragons Rowan (a spearwife) names Theon a kinslayer (referring to Bran and Rickon) and he denies this. She's thinking of the Starks while he's thinking of the miller's children, the irony being that maybe one of them was a child of his.

I've seen this theory pop up before, but, oddly enough, when the topic was the of the"hooded man" in Winterfell. Some speculate, for whatever reason, that his identity is the miller himself. It is said that the man is hooded, carrying a dagger, recognizes Theon, and acts hostile towards him. Obviously if the miller discovered his wife had been bedded by Theon he wouldn't be Theon's biggest fan, but otherwise there's no evidence beyond that to suggest it's actually the miller. Interestingly, the hooded man also refers to Theon as a kinslayer, which Theon again denies. It would be very like GRRM to prove that, due to the nature of POV, it's a true statement but Theon is unaware and ignorant of fathering the child.

But, to qualify all the above, there's not much proof but it's an ironic twist that I would be a fan of if it is somehow addressed in future books.

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6 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I'm not a fan of this theory. If the miller's boys are of an age with Bran, that would mean the oldest is around ten. Meaning Theon would have had to bang this grown woman at ten or eleven years old himself. 

I assumed (could be wrong) that one would've been of an age with Rickon. Meaning like 4 years old. 

I do thing all of this is improbable though. 

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9 hours ago, Traverys said:

I always thought the possibility was put there in a Martin-esque manner.  In A Dance with Dragons Rowan (a spearwife) names Theon a kinslayer (referring to Bran and Rickon) and he denies this. She's thinking of the Starks while he's thinking of the miller's children, the irony being that maybe one of them was a child of his.

I've seen this theory pop up before, but, oddly enough, when the topic was the of the"hooded man" in Winterfell. Some speculate, for whatever reason, that his identity is the miller himself. It is said that the man is hooded, carrying a dagger, recognizes Theon, and acts hostile towards him. Obviously if the miller discovered his wife had been bedded by Theon he wouldn't be Theon's biggest fan, but otherwise there's no evidence beyond that to suggest it's actually the miller. Interestingly, the hooded man also refers to Theon as a kinslayer, which Theon again denies. It would be very like GRRM to prove that, due to the nature of POV, it's a true statement but Theon is unaware and ignorant of fathering the child.

But, to qualify all the above, there's not much proof but it's an ironic twist that I would be a fan of if it is somehow addressed in future books.

 

2 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I assumed (could be wrong) that one would've been of an age with Rickon. Meaning like 4 years old. 

I do thing all of this is improbable though. 

I don't think is that improbable and I tend to like this theory

The younger child could be Theon's, and here is where the kinslayer accusation comes to play. This accusation is heard from three seemingly unrelated persons, the unhooded man, Rowan the spearwife and Crowfood Umber. Before that, Theon was only the Turncloak.

But how these persons could learn about the miller's wife kids? and where is the miller?, even some have suggested that the miller's wife is actually Ramsay's mother giving to the whole thing a horrific twist.

On the other hand, I was reminded that killing foster brothers is actually kinslaying. That's the whole purpose of fostering, because it prevents conflicts down the road.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

 

I don't think is that improbable and I tend to like this theory

The younger child could be Theon's, and here is where the kinslayer accusation comes to play. This accusation is heard from three seemingly unrelated persons, the unhooded man, Rowan the spearwife and Crowfood Umber. Before that, Theon was only the Turncloak.

But how these persons could learn about the miller's wife kids? and where is the miller?, even some have suggested that the miller's wife is actually Ramsay's mother giving to the whole thing a horrific twist.

On the other hand, I was reminded that killing foster brothers is actually kinslaying. That's the whole purpose of fostering, because it prevents conflicts down the road.

 

 

 

I tend to believe the kinslaying accusations are strictly referring to his foster brothers. But if this theory is true then it would add a another layer on top of it.   

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Well, I think it's clear they mean foster brothers when they name him kinslayer. But the irony would be that even though Theon knows Bran are Rickon are not dead by his hand, he may still in fact be a kinslayer though he is ignorant of the fact.

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14 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I'm not a fan of this theory. If the miller's boys are of an age with Bran, that would mean the oldest is around ten. Meaning Theon would have had to bang this grown woman at ten or eleven years old himself. 

The younger one was supposed to be Rickon's age, so maaaybeee.

But from the narrative point of view... it's never going to be resolved, or, most probably, even pondered about in the books (as the only person who could consider it is Theon himself, and as of now he hasn't, so I don't think it's going to happen), so it bears no plot significance. I assume that if something like this was going to happen to a main character, it would be hinted more clearly, even if only to the reader (like Bella being Gendry's sister, despite nobody in universe realizing it). Especially since it's a nice parallel to Theon's co-conspirator, Ramsay himself - wasn't he a miller's wife bastard with a lord as well? I don't think a opportunity like this would be passed by the author if he wanted it to be canon.

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2 hours ago, Tianzi said:

The younger one was supposed to be Rickon's age, so maaaybeee.

But from the narrative point of view... it's never going to be resolved, or, most probably, even pondered about in the books (as the only person who could consider it is Theon himself, and as of now he hasn't, so I don't think it's going to happen), so it bears no plot significance. I assume that if something like this was going to happen to a main character, it would be hinted more clearly, even if only to the reader (like Bella being Gendry's sister, despite nobody in universe realizing it). Especially since it's a nice parallel to Theon's co-conspirator, Ramsay himself - wasn't he a miller's wife bastard with a lord as well? I don't think a opportunity like this would be passed by the author if he wanted it to be canon.

Best argument against it so far. Thumbs up Tianzi. 

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20 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

I'm not a fan of this theory. If the miller's boys are of an age with Bran, that would mean the oldest is around ten. Meaning Theon would have had to bang this grown woman at ten or eleven years old himself. 

They were the same size as B & R, but that doesn't mean they were the same age. Starks tend to run on the small side, so a larger-than-average six-year-old might pass for 8yo Bran, especially once you've taken the head off. So that could put Theon's earliest tryst with the miller's wife at 13 or 14.

5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

The younger one was supposed to be Rickon's age, so maaaybeee.

But from the narrative point of view... it's never going to be resolved, or, most probably, even pondered about in the books (as the only person who could consider it is Theon himself, and as of now he hasn't, so I don't think it's going to happen), so it bears no plot significance. I assume that if something like this was going to happen to a main character, it would be hinted more clearly, even if only to the reader (like Bella being Gendry's sister, despite nobody in universe realizing it). Especially since it's a nice parallel to Theon's co-conspirator, Ramsay himself - wasn't he a miller's wife bastard with a lord as well? I don't think a opportunity like this would be passed by the author if he wanted it to be canon.

Agreed. The only way this could come up is through Bran somehow, or if the miller's wife is also Ramsay's mother and it somehow plays into the dynamic between him and Theon. But this is unlikely as Rams' mom was from the Weeping Water stream southeast of the Dreadfort while the Acorn Water mill is pretty close to Winterfel. And it would take some really shit luck for Theon to fall back into Ramsay's orbit again.

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3 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Wasn't Ramsey(disguised as Reek 1) the one to give Theon the idea of killing the miller's boys in the first place? Correct me if wrong. 

Yes, he did. I think there's no way the miller's wife is Ramsay's momma. 

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Martin is never going to confirm this for us on page, but I do believe that Theon killed his own son.  It makes too much sense with the rest of the narrative to not be true.  And this is not the only open question in ASOIAF that we will never get a definitive answer on.

Will we ever find out for sure?  Probably not.  Does it matter?  Definitely not.  Just like all of the different POVs have very different ideas of what is or isn't true within the story, the reader is supposed to be somewhat in that same situation. 

TOM CRUISE!

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  • It's one of those things that will never get confirmed or denied. Theon could easily be the father of the second child, he's supposed to be 3-4 years old so it fits the timeline. But I'm sure we will never know for sure.
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On 3.5.2017 at 4:01 AM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Wasn't Ramsey(disguised as Reek 1) the one to give Theon the idea of killing the miller's boys in the first place? Correct me if wrong. 

You are not wrong. Plus he was there and with 95% certainty the one who actually killed them (it wasn't Theon anyway). Then he flayed their faces. Don't remember how exactly the mother's death was described, but I think Theon pretty much just stood there all horryfied and determined and then changed the dead kid's clothes.

Would be a pretty big thing if that was Ramsay's mother and brothers! It really should have been mentioned.

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On 03/05/2017 at 0:01 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Wasn't Ramsey(disguised as Reek 1) the one to give Theon the idea of killing the miller's boys in the first place? Correct me if wrong. 

Yeah it was him. Although I believe it was Ramsay who did the killing and then mutilated their faces so nobody could recognize them, while Theon could pass them off for Bran and Rickon.

If they were his kids its an interesting narrative as it makes Ramsay out to be the Devil manipulating his pawn into committing an unforgivable sin (in Theon's case committing filicide), only to be 'rewarded' for his actions by the Devil with an ironic punishment. In Theon's case losing the means to have any more children. 

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21 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

 only to be 'rewarded' for his actions by the Devil with an ironic punishment. In Theon's case losing the means to have any more children. 

That's the show though (in which there is no miller's wife and the boys are orphans) Pretty sure that never happened in the books.

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16 hours ago, ftheking said:

That's the show though (in which there is no miller's wife and the boys are orphans) Pretty sure that never happened in the books.

No its been implied in the books that Ramsay castrated Theon. Everything he did to him was to 'dehumanize him'.

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