Hey kids, let's talk about the male gaze!

[ravenous reader]

12 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Oh and lets not forget how many times we have to read about sweat dripping between Daenery's breasts. Why that always has to mentioned instead of her back or legs or arms I'll never know.

It must be a Lightbringer analogy...

4 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Let's take the infamous Arys chapter. What on god's green Earth is the point of that chapter other than showing us a sex scene from the most obvious male gaze ever? Yet I'm not sure Arianne's huge and responsive nipples are that important for the plot that GRRM had to create a POV from scratch just to describe them. Who knows, maybe Azor Ahai is hiding somewhere around those gigantic nipples.

As I was saying -- it's the Pennytree between the Teats...

'Huge and responsive nipples...'  Oh, you were looking at the nipples?  I was paying attention to her jewellery -- in fact, the 'coiling' configuration of that serpentine arm bangle went a far way towards convincing me of A+J=T!  

[Tianzi]

54 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

There's a quote that gets passed around articles on The George and gender, from a female (Dany or Arianne, I forget) POV, where the subject of a sentence describing her clothes is 'her breasts.' It is truly laughable. Something along the lines of, "Her breasts were free under a blue silk tunic." So bad. 

Yeah, that occasional self-sexualising is kind of funny. I wonder why Tyrion is never contemplating how is penis is free in his silky pants

[Springwatch]

The OP is spot on (and thanks for saying this!). It doesn't bother me a great deal, though, as bad sex scenes are everywhere in literature. At least some of these are funny.

I'm less comfortable with fantasy prostitution (has almost none of the real-world disadvantages; but does have two religions advocating it).

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

@Good Guy Garlan I very much agree with your points and would add that another drawback in my opinion is that GRRM spends way too much time and effort detailing ad nauseum the physical imperfections of female characters. Like, do we really need that many jokes about Selyse's mustache, or reminders of Lollys Stokeworth's bovine expression? Seriously, we can grasp the point faster than that.

This too. What I don't want is for the story to slide into the trope that the heroines must be young and beautiful, and the young and beautiful must be heroines. I'm thinking of Cersei going from the most beautiful to the most despised, and Arya heading the other way. Not that they don't deserve it; it's just... insidiously wrong to equate good looks with a good person. Something we get wrong in real life, too.

[BricksAndSparrows]

30 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Considering the highly problematic context of his relationship with Dany, I'm not even sure what was GRRM's aim with that. Even if we ignore the obvious rape going on, I wouldn't say those bits are meant to be alluring or erotic or non-male gaze-y. 

I think you're cherry picking a bit to support your point. I mean overall, you have a point worth consideration. There is no need for you to dismiss the exceptions. 

I was responding to your claim about the description of Tyrion's penis. And how the male physique is not depicted in an erotic manner. 

I think there is a scene when Dany is trying to talk Drogo into helping her take the Iron Throne. They've just had sex and GRRM's description of Drogo's manhood is fairly erotic. Maybe Azor Ahai is hiding behind Drogo's "glistening" chubby? Or between Kettleblack's asscheeks, clenching an unclenching ass he fucks Cersei. 

 

 

[Tianzi]

22 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This too. What I don't want is for the story to slide into the trope that the heroines must be young and beautiful, and the young and beautiful must be heroines. I'm thinking of Cersei going from the most beautiful to the most despised, and Arya heading the other way. Not that they don't deserve it; it's just... insidiously wrong to equate good looks with a good person. Something we get wrong in real life, too.

Hey, we still have Brienne! (who is such a glaring exception, that we get her ugliness described every time someone looks at her)

Well, one could argue that female beauty is more crucial to social advancing in this world than male handsomeness, but even more crucial would be girl's in questions pedigree, so... yeah. Above all, it would be nice if Arya stayed plain and unremarkable, as she's done well up to this point without her looks being among her defining characteristics.

[The Hammer of Justice]

Yeah, I'm grateful for that xD

[JonCon's Red Beard]

[Camile Paglia intensifies]

If I had to guess, I think Martin wants to propose a contrast between the supposedly sexually open men and the "suppressed" women by showing that women can be as sexually open as men. By showing women such as Arianne or Dany being carefree about sex, he's saying that women enjoy sex as well and how the ones who have no power still have to suffer the consequences (like everybody else). It's a bit like a compensation. Also, they aren't just walking around naked: their sex scenes show them –most of the time— in control: Arianne has sex with Arys to manipulate him and Dany simply has a crush on Daaaaaario so she makes him her lover. Compare that with how many men here seem to be the real prudes (Stannis, both Jons, Ned, Robb, who married the first woman he bedded). Womanizers in Westeros aren't always shown as favorable.

But yes, I agree the show is plainly exploitable because they can't understand that difference and for them, GoT is just about naked women and rape. 

Now, I can't speak about it myself, but I guess many ladies who are into other ladies are ok with these scenes. I mean, I am a straight woman and I have zero problems with female nudity.

About the men, I have no issue tbh. I love Jaime's subtle sexuality just like it is. I still want my JonCon sex scene, though. Anyone, please?

Speaking of the devil, JonCon not being more open about his sexuality has a narrative explanation: he's not very open about anything himself. Now, I can't imagine him having any sexual escapade for him to remember (whores are beneath him), but he might have had a few and we don't know because he's only being given two chapters! Yes, we all want to see the Griffin flies, but let's be patient. It will fly. HIGH VERY HIGH*.

In any case, in the specific case of gay characters, GRRM said (although about the show) that he won't just write sex scenes because people want them, not even gay scenes. If a scene of Jon having sex or him being sexual is needed, then he will show it.

Now, I have a crackpot theory about that. (book 6 spoilers:)

Spoiler

I think the reason Daemon has been sent along with Arianne is to figure out whether Jon's gay or not because Doran knows the real Jon Connington is gay. So, I expect a lot of flirting between those two while Arianne has no idea what's happening, lel.

 

 

*Male ginger porn is very hard to find, so unfair  

[Sondre]

Hey, adult (?). 

I kinda like it when authors write mostly from their own perspective, especially if it's one that I personally share. So I don't have any issues with this "male gaze/female gaze"-thing you are describing, if I understand it correctly. I have yet to hear many of my females friends whom I talk a lot about this book with describe it negatively because of this either. While I do remember one friend complaining about normal sex scenes being turned into rape scenes in the show. But I digress. George RR Martin has probably never had sex with a male before and wouldn't have the faintest of clues how to emulate that experience in any meaningful way. I rather him just skimp on the details than completely winging it. But hey, that's just my two cents =) I suppose if you can't really stand that some books will be written from the perspective of the author then I suppose those books just aren't for you. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I think there is a scene when Dany is trying to talk Drogo into helping her take the Iron Throne. They've just had sex and GRRM's description of Drogo's manhood is fairly erotic. Maybe Azor Ahai is hiding behind Drogo's "glistening" chubby? Or between Kettleblack's asscheeks, clenching an unclenching ass he fucks Cersei.

 

 

There is also a good share of ladies sexily daydreaming about their guys. Cersei about Rhaegar, Waters, and Jaime; Sansa about Sandor and Loras; Dany about Daario; Arianne about Oberyn. Women in Westeros also like to stare at guys and a lot.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I think you're cherry picking a bit to support your point. I mean overall, you have a point worth consideration. There is no need for you to dismiss the exceptions. 

I was responding to your claim about the description of Tyrion's penis. And how the male physique is not depicted in an erotic manner. 

I think there is a scene when Dany is trying to talk Drogo into helping her take the Iron Throne. They've just had sex and GRRM's description of Drogo's manhood is fairly erotic. Maybe Azor Ahai is hiding behind Drogo's "glistening" chubby? Or between Kettleblack's asscheeks, clenching an unclenching ass he fucks Cersei. 

Sorry if I came off as dismissive, it wasn't my intention. I just think that the Drogo-Dany relationship is a whole different kind of monster that merits its own discussion. Like, due to its rapey nature, I think it'd be even more problematic if Drogo having sex with Dany was described more erotically than a consensual intercourse like, say, Asha and Qarl's. But like I said, that's a can of worms I don't feel like opening. 

36 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Snip

The thing is that writing sexually liberated women like Arianne, Asha, Dany, etc, is just the first half of the equation. The other half would be a proper depiction of said liberation. A female character focusing more on her own body and barely sparing a thought about her male partner's is not liberation, that's not feminism*, that's fauxminism. That's the empowerment myth: Like, if Arianne is the one with power over Arys, why does she feel like the object in that scene? It's like what GRRM is trying to say doesn't really mesh with how he's saying it. 

Good point about Jon Connington having only two chapters so far. Maybe in the future we'll get some sex flashbacks or Rhaegar fantasies...or the real thing with Daemon Sand, who knows. Then again, Arianne was getting down and dirty in her first scene. And sure, different characters, etc, but there's a certain pattern at work in here as well. 

* Re: feminism, I'm not saying GRRM is trying to write a feminist story or even that he should, by the way. 

19 minutes ago, Sondre said:

I suppose if you can't really stand that some books will be written from the perspective of the author then I suppose those books just aren't for you. 

Oh, man, if only you had told me that before I reached almost 10,000 posts on a forum about some books I can't stand!

[Protagoras]

Hmm...

For Arys, I think the main motive is not really that we see that a knight can be corrupted (we sort of know this) but exactly why THIS knight forsakes his charge and wovs. Unless we have that chapter, we have no real reason to get as readers why Arys would do what he does when he brings Myrcella with him to go with Arianne. Sure, they could have dropped a line or two in an Arianne chapter that he was seduced, but it would feel a little forced, less real if you say, especially with the later "suicide". We would have lacked the necessary intel to draw good conclusions. It also work great with killing off another PoV, in case people thought that GRRM had gone soft. And lets be honest here, AFfC is hardly GRRMs best book.

For Cersei, I think the idea is to really force in some aspect of Cerseis hatred of her own sex and how much she wants to be a man, attempting to experience sex as men do. In addition, her history with Robert is touched upon - which gives her some reader sympathy she need in order to build up that people are supposed to feel sorry for her when she has her walk a book later (I certainly didn´t, but not everyone are as unemotional as I am). We are also seeing exactly how far Taena is willing to go in order to spy on Cersei (which will be a later reveal in maybe the next book). She is also acting in a power-fantasy. After all, Robert took what he wanted and he was king. Now she is regent and "queen". So why not take what she want in the same way. Cersei is in other words hypocritical enough to hate Robert and wants to be him in the same scene.

Daenerys maybe-bianism is a bit harder and together with that loose breast scene, might be more of GRRM having fantasy. I guess you could see it as a sign on how lonely she is and that she need sexual attention, flagging for her relationship with Daario later on. It also give us some more information on exactly how far a handmaiden should go to please her master/mistress.

And that Asha-sex might have a point. A pregnancy maybe. And we knows that she like rape-games. And that she is sexually liberated.  Maybe that could be significant if some in Stannis crew gets too frisky. Yeah, I don´t have much to go on here. I suppose the best is that it shows that Asha challenges the norms, but we sort of already knew that. I guess the sex could also be that it is a remembering of the "good times" (with the detail about who having which organ is a vivid descibtion on how fucking good that sex was)and then we as readers know that from now on, there wont be more "good times" for Asha.

As for JonCon, his "partner" is after all very dead. So there are some reason why the only gay PoW doesn´t get busy. He is simply not getting anything due to plot reasons.

But yeah, I am aware that all this are only poor explanations. After all, GRRM could have introduced other characters who would have had plot reasons if he wanted to.

Now, I am not saying that all this are just coincidences. There are by deterministic logic no such things. But it seems that the target here is GRRM´s subconcious. And I remember a quote where he said that since he was a 50+ american male it would be strange if his writing were up to date with feminist perspectives or something.

[Davjos]

I kinda have to agree with @Sondre.

Because GRRM is a straight male I expect lust, attraction and sex is harder to write for him. Hell, I couldn't accurately describe a male sex scene because looking at the male body in that way is both foreign and unknown to me. To not be able to draw from your own experience while writing seems very hard to me. I'd rather have GRRM not write something instead of writing it badly(clinically, not natural etc).

 

Also one thing to consider is that most of the readers are young, straight males. A part of them are sadly a lot less comfortable with sex between men than with women. It might be recieved badly. 

 

Personally, I don't really care. If I'd had to formulate it one way I'd say GRRM writes a little too much about sex/women, instead of too little about men. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

 

The thing is that writing sexually liberated women like Arianne, Asha, Dany, etc, is just the first half of the equation. The other half would be a proper depiction of said liberation. A female character focusing more on her own body and barely sparing a thought about her male partner's is not liberation, that's not feminism*, that's fauxminism. That's the empowerment myth: Like, if Arianne is the one with power over Arys, why does she feel like the object in that scene? It's like what GRRM is trying to say doesn't really mesh with how he's saying it. 

 

The point here is "who" feels her like an object? I definitely don't see her in that way.

IMO, there is no really a "proper" depiction of women because we women are very diverse. Even weak women have a purpose, IMO. I see nothing wrong with portraying a weak woman or a bad woman or a sexist woman. There should not be any kind of limitation on what characters to write. In Arianne's case, I think the point at first is that Arianne can live without any consequence for her actions, even her sexual actions. She definitely enjoys the sexual freedom no other woman in Westeros, but now, that ends up badly for everybody else as she used sex as a tool, not as something that she enjoys in a personal matter. Martin isn't judging or presenting Arianna badly for having sex, just for having sex that is used with manipulative ends. Maybe that's why it feels "wrong" at first? It's not like she's being sexually objectified, she's using sex as a tool for something that isn't right. Different situation, IMO. 

But I see your point because when I write stories, I tend to be more observant about men. It's kinda hard to write from men's perspectives about women, though. If not done carefully, male characters admiring women can end up looking like pervs (e.g, Christian Grey). I guess we women have a different way to appreciate male figures.

 

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Good point about Jon Connington having only two chapters so far.

 

It feels more because we've met him already in Tyrion's chapters, but it's only two. And those two are completely different from what Tyrion perceived about him. So, technically, we know nothing about JonCon so far. Everything has been revealed by Martin off-page.

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Maybe in the future we'll get some sex flashbacks or Rhaegar fantasies...

1

Yes

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

or the real thing with Daemon Sand, who knows.

 

Please.

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Then again, Arianne was getting down and dirty in her first scene. And sure, different characters, etc, but there's a certain pattern at work in here as well. 

 

Unless I'm wrong, I think her first scene was greeting Doran when he returned home. Areoh is quite descriptive of her but he also speaks fondly of her. I guess it's supposed to be a contrast between what a paternal figure sees (Areoh) and how Arianne actually is? Could be more of a literary trick.

1 hour ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

* Re: feminism, I'm not saying GRRM is trying to write a feminist story or even that he should, by the way.

 

Nah, he can write whatever he wants. In fact, I think Arianne is, by definition, the most feminist character of the bunch. She was actually fighting (although for the wrong reasons) for women's rights not being taken from Dornish women. What Doran was supposedly doing to her was going to cause a terrible precedent for future generations.

 

[Renly's Banana]

This is definitely one of GRRM's biggest issues, and no, you can't wave it away by saying it's just cause he's a straight dude and can't imagine what women/gay men would want. He's never been a twelve year old girl either, yet here he is writing about Sansa having her first period and seeing the world through her eyes. So it can be done, he just chooses not to do it. Other authors have done it plenty of times before.

It's understandable that almost everything is clouded by the male gaze and the patriarchy of the world. Even Cersei's own insecurities and sexual curiosity is influenced by it -- that's fine, this makes sense. But the extent at which he writes it (and, conversely, ignores the opposite) is kinda getting old. If I see one more woman getting her nipples described in full detail (they're always huge and they're always hard and brown; I think we really know what kind of nipples GRRM likes), i'm gonna throw myself into the sunset sea. 

His pussyfooting around Jon Con's sexuality is also ridiculous. If he were a secondary character (like Renly or Loras or Lyn Corbray) then that'd be one thing, but we're LITERALLY inside this dude's head and yet he never once has any sort of gay thought? Not even a single "damn, Ser Rolly is lookin' fine today"? Why even tout that you're gonna include a gay POV if he's basically just gonna be asexual?  

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 minute ago, Renly's Banana said:

His pussyfooting around Jon Con's sexuality is also ridiculous. If he were a secondary character (like Renly or Loras or Lyn Corbray) then that'd be one thing, but we're LITERALLY inside this dude's head and yet he never once has any sort of gay thought? Not even a single "damn, Ser Rolly is lookin' fine today"? Why even tout that you're gonna include a gay POV if he's basically just gonna be asexual?  

 

Because that's not Jon Connington's personality, maybe? I'm a straight woman and I don't go around saying "oh my, that dude looks so fi-i-ne..." at every other colleague of mine. Jokes aside, what other male characters act in this way you describe? Jaime, for example, daydreams about Cersei because he's at first obsessed by him. After he gets apart from her, he starts to notice other women because this is what Martin wants us to see: how he's becoming free from Cersei and realizing she's not as unique as he thought.  Ned doesn't go around how much he misses Cat's body either. Other Jon only remembers Ygritte. And Theon is... Theon.

The thing with Connington is that he's not really a very sexual person. Being gay or not has nothing or little to do with how you express your sexuality. This feels like assuming that, because I like men, every other man I interact with is going to make me feel aroused. Then I would be unable to interact with any man. Jon so far is been surrounded by men he doesn't respect. Everybody's beneath him. Why would he feel attracted to any of them? Even the most "handsome" of the bunch is target of mockery by him. The only one who he ever wanted is dead. Does he mean he never had any man in his life? Maybe. I tend to believe that he was in love and possibly had something more with Blackheart, as he describes him with the same tenderness he remembers Rhaegar. But maybe they didn't and it was just a crush.

Unlike Jaime or Theon, who have more sexual experience, I feel Jon has probably had one or two occasional lovers. And he really doesn't care about sex so far because his priorities are going back to Westeros and not dying. Besides that, as I said above, we've only seen TWO chapters of him. I feel like he will eventually meet a man he's going to like and we'll see how he reacts.

[Hodor the Articulate]

It's not just the sex scenes and overly detailed descriptions of nipples, his idea of what straight women find attractive is also hilariously off. Drogo, I'll give a past for, because there, I can imagine Jason Momoa at least, but I cannot, in my mind, make Daario and his three-pronged beard into the sex-god GRRM seems to think he is. Someone needs to tell GRRM (and comicbook artists) that male power fantasies =/= female fantasies.

Also, it's kinda gross that there's any "male gaze" at Dany at all. She's 13 yrs old at the start of the series, and 16 yrs old now. At least Arianne's gigantic nipples are of age.

27 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

(they're always huge and they're always hard and brown; I think we really know what kind of nipples GRRM likes), i'm gonna throw myself into the sunset sea. 

lol. I'm pretty sure we've got GRRM's whole "type" down - petite skinny chicks with heart shaped faces and swollen nipples.

[Renly's Banana]

3 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Because that's not Jon Connington's personality, maybe? I'm a straight woman and I don't go around saying "oh my, that dude looks so fi-i-ne..." at every other colleague of mine. Jokes aside, what other male characters act in this way you describe?

Literally every single other male POV character in our story (with the exception of maybe friggin Cressen) show their sexuality. Be it by word, history or thought, it's there, a part of the character. Even Hotah makes one or two passing comments about Arianne's body.  

You're absolutely right in pointing out it's also got to do with his frigid and snobby personality, and it is true he could very well show more of himself in the future, but solely basing it on what we've seen so far, things don't look too hopeful. You say that maybe it's because he's in a stressful situation, or maybe he liked Blackheart because of some vague interpretations, but here's the thing: we should not be playing the maybe game when we're privy to this man's inner thoughts. Again, no other character is as coy and vague as Connington. Why? He's the only POV man who has his sexuality willingly and forcibly hidden away and suppressed from the reader. And since he's also the only gay one.. things get problematic.

I neither expect nor want him to be giving guys reach arounds on the back of a Volantene elephant, but this other extreme is just as ugly. Especially when you parade him as your first and only gay protagonist then proceed to make him as sterile and blank as humanly possible.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm a gay man, for the record.

Most straight men are not simply "not interested" in gay sex. They are disgusted by it. This includes progressives like GRRM: they can't help it.

This is based on how our brains are wired. Men are just women with testosterone, which means the part of the (female) brain that finds men sexy is still there inside of straight male brains. Testosterone doesn't actually deactivate that part of the brain. Instead a DIFFERENT part of the brain fires up and says "dude, that's gay, gross" and they go back to thinking about vaginas and breasts. The idea that homophobia is compensating for gay thoughts is 100% true, but it's also entirely instinctive: it's hardwired in, it isn't a learned behavior. What makes us different from straight men isn't the fact that we want to have sex with men, it's that for whatever reason we lack the instinctive revulsion to it.

So I wouldn't expect GRRM to be able to write a gay sex scene, and neither should anyone else. Be happy that GoT is, by benefit of the medium of television, the product of multiple creative minds including gay men who are entirely capable of giving us what George simply can't, by no fault of his own.

[The Fattest Leech]

You guys need to read a lot more of George's other work if you think he is any sort of an -ist. Seriously. 

[Renly's Banana]

4 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

So I wouldn't expect GRRM to be able to write a gay sex scene, and neither should anyone else. 

Nobody is petitioning him to write in gay sex scenes. 
Although this whole "he's not gay so he's physically incapable of doing it" excuse is super lazy and tired. He's not a rapist either, but he's written a lot of that. Or a cannibal or a murder -- I assume his brain is also "hardwired" to not like those either. This isn't some impossible thing that nobody has ever done before.