Hey kids, let's talk about the male gaze!

[kimim]

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Terrible, you'd almost think he's writing in the POV of characters in a patriarchy. The novel gains no depth from exploring the worth of attractive or unattractive women as deemed by Westeros society? Nothing in Jaime's feelings for Brienne despite her appearance? Nothing to provoke thought in Cat's pity for Brienne? Nothing to it when LF specifically mentions Sansa's beauty as a reason she can achieve great things? No reason to dwell on the beauty of a woman who magically commands her appearance? No depth gained in Jon's love for plain Ygritte and refusing lovely Val? In the dichotomy between harsh and hard Asha (who despite being in your list is far from a conventional beauty) and beautiful lean Qarl?

Not that beautiful men don't abound or their beauty or deficits not harped upon.

If all but one of an author's positive females are beautiful (truly beautiful--not seen to be beautiful because they're smart or whatever) and if most of the author's not-so-positive females are "ugly," mustachioed or overweight, then the author is not challenging anything. The author has fallen victim to fairy tales. Brienne is such an exception that the author doesn't seem able to get over her, endlessly hitting us with a barrage of her physical shortcomings.

As far as medieval patriarchy which operates in Westeros: A woman (or a man) gained worth by value of her/his holdings, by value of the alliances s/he could bring with her. Looks in both cases would have been icing on the cake, but mostly meaningless. The only problem would have been extreme illness--leprosy, for instance. Even age didn't make a difference if there were already heirs by an earlier wife, and if the alliances the older woman brought with her were valuable. Sansa doesn't need to be beautiful to achieve great things, and LF should know that. Sansa has everything she needs: The North and Winterfell. After that, she's supposedly the beloved bastard daughter of the Lord Paramount of Harrenhal, pretty impressive credentials. Margaery does not need to be beautiful. She could look like Lollys or Fat Walda, and no one would care so long as she brought the Tyrell alliance. Dany's beauty matters only in so far as it leads Drogo to fall for her. After that, she could gain weight or get pimply or get scarred. She'd still be the Targ heir. What matters is her lineage and her dragons. Arianne never needed looks. The marriage alliance between the Martells and Viserys was made when she was just a toddler. No one cared about what she'd eventually look like. All they cared about was that she was the Martell heir. And Lysa, an unpleasant (therefore overweight, of course) woman is getting courted by all and sundry: her looks are meaningless. What matters is she has the Vale.

Granted, we get some of the same thing with the men: Barristan believes that Quentyn's appearance dissuades Dany from making an alliance with him (I question that, btw). Mostly, though, appearance is there for a reason: Jaime's looks contrast with his torn interior. Tyrion's dwarfism leads to prejudice against him. Robert's fat is metaphor for his sloth. Sandor's scars are reminders of what happened to him and of his present mental state. Drogo's looks help Dany resign to the marriage and assimilate to Dothraki ways. Varys's appearance proves that he's a eunuch. There are plenty of other men whose appearance is either not described, or whose appearance is indifferent: Littlefinger. Ned. Davos. Stannis. Jon. Tywin.

[Damon_Tor]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm not sure what you are trying so say.

The conversation went something like:
 

Quote

 

OP: ASoIaF should have more male gay sex.

Me: GRRM can't be expected to write gay sex scenes, straight men have an instinctive revulsion to gay sex.

Renly's Banana: But then how can he write rape scenes?

Me: Because there's no instinctive revulsion to rape.

 

Again, for the record, I'm a gay man.

Understanding the way the brain works in regard to sex is important part of understanding ourselves and the way we think about sex and our own identities. Instincts are evolutionary responses to encourage adaptive behaviors and discourage maladaptive behaviors. Homosexuality is maladaptive: it makes it far less likely that a man will pass on his genes. This is why most men have an instinctive revulsion to it: those men are called "heterosexuals". Gay men lack this revulsion.

Rape, on the other hand, historically has been an adaptive behavior; a rapist had been more likely to pass on his genes than someone who wouldn't rape, and so most men are aroused at the prospect.

That's one layer, the instinctive layer.

Then on top of all that you pile the learned behavior. In civilized society we learn that rape is wrong and homosexuality is normal, and progressive feminists like GRRM would certainly agree strongly, but no matter how much they believe it, they still have instincts that tell them that gay sex is revolting and rape is sexy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

JC was created the way he is because GRRM wanted a bitterly determined ruthless man (Tywin wannabe) in Aegon's corner and by having JC hellbent on avenging his mistakes to the prince he loved suited that purpose. Balancing lesbian and homosexual scenes is not his concern.

Include a scene of JC being randomly blown by some guy and his grim dedication to sitting the son of his silver haired prince on the throne doesn't pack the same punch.

 

When I still had hopes Jon Con would be cast for the show, I feared that his introduction to the audience would be him with a blond prostitute because there is no other way for us to know he was gay. Not because he's a man or because he's gay and I don't like him having gay sex, but because that's not who he is. He doesn't like whoring. That has nothing to do with him being gay or not. Ned isn't gay and he disapproves whoring too. Ditto for Stannis. 

In any case, I think that he's supposed to be portrayed as loyal to the point of being faithful to a memory that never happened. Loras has reasons to say he doesn't want to have another lover in his life after Renly died, but Jon was nothing but Rhaegar's friend. Yet, he's still loyal to the love he felt for him. It's the same case as the guy who was in love with Rhaella, and became celibate after she got married (can't remember the name now, but you all know who I mean). Jon, as this guy, belongs to the pre-Robert times of Westeros, times that were considered more "romantic". Rhaegar's death represents the death of this world. In Rhaegar's time, we have legendary warriors who defeat legendary bandits who stole a kiss from a Princess when, after he's gone, the bandits raped and murdered the princess and her babies. It's meant to be a contrast.

But now that Jon is becoming more like Tywin Lannister, he's going to break all of those sweet things about him and betray his own ideals.

Something similar happens with Arianne. She's becoming more wary and careful about her own sexuality. She wants to meet Jon and use her mind when she faces him. Despite she at first considers to seduce him, the challenge of using her wits seems to be something she's going to enjoy more than just bed him and use him like she used Arys. This is a development for her and gives Arys' chapter a whole new meaning. No one says that it would be wrong if she gets all hot and bothered after she meets Jon and wants to have sex with him, but she doesn't want to use THAT in the negotiation because she's better than that.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

nderstanding the way the brain works in regard to sex is important part of understanding ourselves and the way we think about sex and our own identities. Instincts are evolutionary responses to encourage adaptive behaviors and discourage maladaptive behaviors. Homosexuality is maladaptive: it makes it far less likely that a man will pass on his genes. This is why most men have an instinctive revulsion to it: those men are called "heterosexuals". Gay men lack this revulsion.

2

Women, in general, seem to be more open to enjoy homosexuality and gay male sex, just as men enjoy more to see two lesbians rather than two guys. I find this phenomenon fascinating for some reason.

1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

Rape, on the other hand, historically has been an adaptive behavior; a rapist had been more likely to pass on his genes than someone who wouldn't rape, and so most men are aroused at the prospect.

That's one layer, the instinctive layer.

Then on top of all that you pile the learned behavior. In civilized society we learn that rape is wrong and homosexuality is normal, and progressive feminists like GRRM would certainly agree strongly, but no matter how much they believe it, they still have instincts that tell them that gay sex is revolting and rape is sexy.

 

He ain't that, though, despite he's liberal.

[Damon_Tor]

Just now, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Women, in general, seem to be more open to enjoy homosexuality and gay male sex, just as men enjoy more to see two lesbians rather than two guys. I find this phenomenon fascinating for some reason.

True: homosexuality between women isn't nearly as maladaptive because women historically have lacked sexual agency. Not wanting to mate with men doesn't mean you won't be mated with. For most of our evolutionary history all that was required to mate with a woman was the ability to remove her male protectors (her father or her mate, depending) and physically subdue her (which is unlikely to be challenging given the male's superior strength and speed AND the fact that you've already passed a major fitness hurdle by defeating her father and/or mate in the first place).

Quote

He ain't that, though, despite he's liberal.

He thinks he is, though. I mean, we've all read Meathouse Man by this point, we know what he really thinks of women. Maybe he's changed since then, but he still has those feelings inside him someplace.

[Good Guy Garlan]

6 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

He thinks he is, though. I mean, we've all read Meathouse Man by this point, we know what he really thinks of women. Maybe he's changed since then, but he still has those feelings inside him someplace.

He thinks he's more progressive than the Sad Puppies assholes, and he is, to be sure. (Not that the bar is super high when you're dealing with people like Orson Scott Card and Dan Simmons). 

But he's not as progressive as he thinks he is. I think he pats himself in the back for including gay characters without actually doing the heavy lifting and exploring the sexual or erotic aspect of that. It's basically the Dumbledore/LeFou effect, and when it comes to diversity it amounts to little more than lip service.

[Walda]

16 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

There is nothing that indicates that Westeros is actively persecuting homosexuals. Probably is not the most normal thing, but it may be tolerated.  We have

- Renly & Loras

- Kem the sellsword and "his friend" back at KL

- Runnymudd & Garth at the Wall

Probably others

Moonpie

Xaro

Owen the Oaf

Maybe Patchface, maybe Satin, maybe Lyn Corbray.

Also, I'd like to point out that the hetro sex is pretty crappy. There's a focus on stuffing things into vags as fast as possible. Usually without a with your leave or a by your leave. There's also the way mustachios and body hair (invariably coarse) is described as if it is a huge turn-on for the ladies (or, as is often the case, pubescent and pre-pubescent girls). Mmmm, old guys with coarse pubic hair, and well oiled mustachios, that go a whole minute, whether you like it or not. Pretty darn hot, hey.

And the girl-on-girl is not lesbian sex. Its hetro-male porn fantasy. The women who do it (Cersei, Dany) do it because they are jonesing for the cock, and they do it in a way that seems to be designed to aesthetically please an invisible onlooker, rather than even mildly enjoyable for their partner/ each other.

GRRM is even less interested in portraying dedicated lesbians having sex than gay men having sex. Are there actually any lesbian characters at all, open or suppressed?

Another thing is, he prefers to put his old fashioned rape myths and other outrageously sexist crap into the mouths of women. Stuff like “A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”(ASoS,Ch.41 Jon V) and "Common men deprived of whores are apt to turn to rape."(AFfC,Ch.36 Cersei VIII)

I've heard enough heterosexual men say such crap in real life to suppose it is possible the guys who said it believes, or want to believe it. But women don't enjoy such easy certainty on such points.

I've read interviews where he claims that the multitude of casual rape scenes and descriptions and mentions are an attempt to create a realistically medieval patriarchal society. But then, I've read interviews where he claims women come up to him and complement him on his female characters. Like, if one had stood in a line for several hours clutching copies of ASoIaF for him to sign, and finally got the chance to speak to him, one would waste the precious moment on a detailed critique of all that is implausible about his female characters. Also the gender of the person who gives the critique is not what gives the critique validity (or makes it invalid). As this thread shows, there are men who are gifted with the ability to recognise implausible female characteristics. Also there are implausible male characters. Given the Westerosi population of named/mentioned characters is four men to every woman/girl, there are probably more implausible male characters than female ones. There are also , any more than it prevents me noticing implausible male characters.

I tend to blame the Marist Brothers for his attitude towards sexuality.  He went to a Catholic boys school, and the Marist indoctrinate certain attitudes and beliefs about girls and women that are not compatible with the lived experience of people who actually associate with girls and women.

There is a lot of Catholic dogma in there - although it is 20th century type attitudes, not medieval attitudes.But he very deliberately makes the religions in that society ones that have far fewer prohibitions on sex, where the main prohibitions on heterosexual sex are caused by secular laws concerning inheritance, not religious ones banning fornication that does not lead to procreation. He also endows Westeros with a free, available, effective and practically harmless contraceptive/abortifactant that every woman can take at will (and even be tricked into taking) to prevent/terminate unwanted pregnancy. And there doesn't seem to be any religious obsession with (male) homosexuality in Westeros religion. 

There's also the way brothels throw open their doors to all comers for free at times of public mourning in Dorne, and Meereen, and the number of religions that have prostitute priestesses, also occasionally free, and the way the girls give spontaneous freebies as in “I don’t cost nothing to friends of Thoros and the lightning lord.” Like, right there, under her Madam's nose. Also the way they don't ever seem to ask for money up front. And when Tyrion takes Shae's expensive clothing and jewels off her, to put in a trunk in his room for safe keeping, that she can wear there, if he allowed her, (reducing her to poverty and obliging her to reach out to Cersei and Tywin) Yeah, sure. Like, he wanted to create a realistic medieval portrayal of prostitution in the middle ages?

Also, in Westeros, all men are rapists. Maybe that is too much of a generalisation, but even the men who prefer to engage with a willing partner make no objection to things like, at every feast, when they are just trying to eat a meal, there are guys sticking their hands down the bodice or up the skirt of the serving girls.

And all serving girls are condemed to dress in thier authentic renaissance-fair front-laced bodice dirndls with special tit-baring kirtles under them, especially for the purpose of embarrassing them when their ever enlarging nipples are forcibly exposed for groping, twisting, being chewed off, or whatever lusts are stirred up by the sight of a roast and a jug of ale.

I suppose it's worse in the less civilised rape-based cultures, like that of the Ironborn, the Wildlings, the Dothraki. Also, being male is a huge adventure being in a rape-based culture, and the women of that culture tend to say its an honour and a privilege to be raped, and so hot. There doesn't seem to be any hetro guys that have a view that if they can't get a partner that loves them, wants them, desired them, they would rather not have to rape to keep the peace or whatever. Let alone suggest that they really don't want to be complicit in all the raping that is going on, or suggest that maybe it isn't the OK. For a while, I thought Jaime might be like that, but then, you know, the sept, and then he dismissed Pia and pimped her out to his squire, which seemed unnecessary, and kind of Marist in that homosocial sort of sexuality, where the girls are just the glue in the male relationship.

I suppose Jon Snow might still be that guy, he hasn't got around to raping Melisandre for reminding him of Ygritte or anything. Although he shares that strange tolerance for rapists - you would think that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, whose main problem is a lack of men, would want to take advantage of the legal system and demand each Lord of the Realm give him their rapey warriors or castrate them, in those dire times. Gregor, Amory, the Bloody Mummers, Tywin's forces that sacked Kings Landing, the Karstarks, the Westerosi legal system could oblige them to choose the wall or their nuts, but even Stannis isn't such a zealot as to insist on that.

 

[Lord Varys]

George has actually gone on record that he has trouble writing gay male (sex) scenes. I don't fault him for that. Before I had a crush on a golden-haired youth of great beauty with (sort of) green eyes in my twenties I literally had no idea what could be particularly attractive in a male body or face. And I think that tendency is there with George, too. When he describes men he does so more in a general way while he clearly knows what body parts he has to focus on when describing a woman (although he does spend a lot of time on breasts there - we have no idea what kind of an ass Dany, Cersei, Arianne, or any other woman in the series has, if I'm not mistaken).

But George began to try things out with Daemon II, Cockshaw, and Dunk in TMK, and now continues this trend with Jon Connington. We could get a real sex scene there, perhaps involving Daemon Sand and Jon, or something else later down the road. Jon Connington is not yet dead, after all.

The Dany lesbian scene was actually supposed to show that her sex drive had began to stir again. This was more assisted masturbation. It strikes as only as odd because George didn't give us Tyrion masturbating while watching or thinking of Lemore on the Shy Maid (something that most likely happened) or Jon masturbating at Castle Black, thinking about some pretty girl he saw and interacted with. 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Another thing is, he prefers to put his old fashioned rape myths and other outrageously sexist crap into the mouths of women. Stuff like “A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”(ASoS,Ch.41 Jon V)

I don't think this quote means what you think it means. She's saying that if a man tries to possess a woman by force, and he also has a knife in the house, then she can and will righteously murder him with it. That is to say, there's a deep cultural indictment of sex slavery -- all slavery, as we know. The subtext being that a man only gets to have a woman in his life when she chooses to be there. That's a sentiment we can unambiguously support. 

I mean, the rest of your post is quite right. The weird constant rapeyness of the entire world is really gross and insulting. As I said above, it's (subconsciously?) fetishized. 

[rotting sea cow]

3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The conversation went something like:

OP: ASoIaF should have more male gay sex.

Me: GRRM can't be expected to write gay sex scenes, straight men have an instinctive revulsion to gay sex.

Renly's Banana: But then how can he write rape scenes?

Me: Because there's no instinctive revulsion to rape.

Again, for the record, I'm a gay man.

Understanding the way the brain works in regard to sex is important part of understanding ourselves and the way we think about sex and our own identities. Instincts are evolutionary responses to encourage adaptive behaviors and discourage maladaptive behaviors. Homosexuality is maladaptive: it makes it far less likely that a man will pass on his genes. This is why most men have an instinctive revulsion to it: those men are called "heterosexuals". Gay men lack this revulsion.

Rape, on the other hand, historically has been an adaptive behavior; a rapist had been more likely to pass on his genes than someone who wouldn't rape, and so most men are aroused at the prospect.

That's one layer, the instinctive layer.

Then on top of all that you pile the learned behavior. In civilized society we learn that rape is wrong and homosexuality is normal, and progressive feminists like GRRM would certainly agree strongly, but no matter how much they believe it, they still have instincts that tell them that gay sex is revolting and rape is sexy.

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood your comment as a 'natural' justification for rape. And well, as a straight man, I'm not at all aroused by the prospect of rape, even sex with passive women (starfishes) are a huge turn off for me. 

Regarding rape in the series, there are two types

1.- As part of war atrocities and as far as I can recall, no such case of rape is explicitly described, despite happening in huge scale. Same with torture. We should be thankful for that.

2.- People have noted that most sex scenes are not unmistakably consensual, there is almost always some power play at work. From Ygritte with Jon, to Cersei with Taena. This is indeed a problem.

 

 

 

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 This was more assisted masturbation. It strikes as only as odd because George didn't give us Tyrion masturbating while watching or thinking of Lemore on the Shy Maid (something that most likely happened) or Jon masturbating at Castle Black, thinking about some pretty girl he saw and interacted with. 

Oh yes, he did, twice actually

"The fat man made good on the promised bath, though. No sooner did Tyrion lower himself into the hot water and close his eyes than he was fast asleep. He woke naked on a goose-down feather bed so soft it felt as if he had been swallowed by a cloud. His tongue was growing hair and his throat was raw, but his cock was as hard as an iron bar. He rolled from the bed, found a chamber pot, and commenced to filling it, with a groan of pleasure"

- Tyrion I, ADWD

 

"Good morrow, Hugor." Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. "How did you sleep?"

"Fitfully, good lady. I dreamed of you again." A waking dream. He could not sleep, so he had eased a hand between his legs and imagined the septa atop him, breasts bouncing."

 

- Tyrion IV, ADWD

 

But otherwise you are right, as far I can recall, these are the only two cases of masturbation in the books, despite having many young PoVs.

 

[rotting sea cow]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei's advice: (will she be proved right all along?)

"You little fool [Sansa]. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it..."

Depressing!

Depressing? It is Cersei advice FFS, and she is wrong as with almost everything else, like

“The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.”

or

"a strong king must act bold"

etc.

If you want a woman who had already proved her wrong, you need to look at Daenerys.

"A young girl she might be, but Daenerys Targaryen was the only thing that held them all together." - Barristan

 

 

[Renly's Banana]

12 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Depths and desires like those on show when he stands atop his tower and reminisces about having done so once with his love and how his love fuels his every current action and desire?

That was.. something, I'll grant you. Not very much depth. And so subtle as to almost not even be there. 

11 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think GRRM should stay away of writing sex scenes. If straight sex scenes are almost always quite badly written, what can you expect of gay sex scenes?

Agreed 100%. The stuff in the first couple books was more tolerable, but I swear this man is getting hornier and more outrageous the older he gets and the longer these books go. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Before I had a crush on a golden-haired youth of great beauty with (sort of) green eyes in my twenties I literally had no idea what could be particularly attractive in a male body or face.

We get it, Varys, you had a thing for Illyrio back in the day. It's really cute. 

4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

The conversation went something like:

OP: ASoIaF should have more male gay sex.

Me: GRRM can't be expected to write gay sex scenes, straight men have an instinctive revulsion to gay sex.

Renly's Banana: But then how can he write rape scenes?

Me: Because there's no instinctive revulsion to rape.

I hope you realize this is still an extremely lazy cop-out and excuses absolutely nothing. 
If you were physically incapable of writing something because you find it "instinctively repulsive", we would have nothing good in literature. I say, AGAIN, plenty of straight men have written gay relations and even sex before. Plenty of straight women have done the reverse. I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of evolutionary instincts, so maybe you can school me softly a bit here. 
Are we hardwired to like murder? What about extremely graphic murder, via flaying, goring, burning to death? What about incest? Are straight men more prone to write about having sex with your siblings? What about warging into a wolf and having other wolves mount you so you can feel what that's like? That'd be bestiality. Is that -- biologically speaking -- more palatable to a straight author than writing two men having sex? Just asking for a friend.

[Tianzi]

17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Terrible, you'd almost think he's writing in the POV of characters in a patriarchy. The novel gains no depth from exploring the worth of attractive or unattractive women as deemed by Westeros society? Nothing in Jaime's feelings for Brienne despite her appearance? Nothing to provoke thought in Cat's pity for Brienne? Nothing to it when LF specifically mentions Sansa's beauty as a reason she can achieve great things? No reason to dwell on the beauty of a woman who magically commands her appearance? No depth gained in Jon's love for plain Ygritte and refusing lovely Val? In the dichotomy between harsh and hard Asha (who despite being in your list is far from a conventional beauty) and beautiful lean Qarl?

Not that beautiful men don't abound or their beauty or deficits not harped upon.

Asha is not 'classic', but it's clear that she's supposed to be a sexbomb.

I have nothing against female characters being rated by males as 'hot or not' - it's realistic, it's also realistic that girls and women's looks weigh heavily on their prospects in this story, yeah. Exploring how their looks determine their lives? Fine. But most of them are actually in the game in the first place because of their birth, not their looks. And isn't it a little bit of a coincidence, that virtually all of the great House's daughters are/used to be great beauties or at least sexy enough to make up for it/surely getting there? Come on.

The only non beautiful woman of the highest social stand (by marriage, not by birth, btw) I can think of is Queen Selyse - to highlight how being Stannis is always getting the short end of a stick. And she couldn't even be just plain, she had to have a goddamn moustache.

 

22 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

* Re: feminism, I'm not saying GRRM is trying to write a feminist story or even that he should, by the way. 

I'd say that while it's not about any 'filling up any feminist quota' or anything like that, the different treatment sometimes feel unnatural. If you are writing a POV story and involve women's and gays', walk the walk.

 

21 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

If I'd had to formulate it one way I'd say GRRM writes a little too much about sex/women, instead of too little about men. 

I have to agree with that, I fastforward Tyrion/Shae every time I reread.

 

3 hours ago, Walda said:

And the girl-on-girl is not lesbian sex. Its hetro-male porn fantasy. The women who do it (Cersei, Dany) do it because they are jonesing for the cock, and they do it in a way that seems to be designed to aesthetically please an invisible onlooker, rather than even mildly enjoyable for their partner/ each other.

GRRM is even less interested in portraying dedicated lesbians having sex than gay men having sex. Are there actually any lesbian characters at all, open or suppressed?

This.

And I agree with the rest of your post as well.

The bottom line is that even if almost every single instance of fanservice or fetishizing (or lack of it even if it should take place) is cleverly explained as patriarchal society!/it doesn't fit this particular character/lesbian sex is important for this character's exploration!, etc., the trend is still very well visible. That said, I don't have a problem with GRRM being praised for his 'feminism' despite that, because he at least makes a solid effort to make his female characters humans (it's sad that this thing isn't obvious in literature, especially in fantasy, but it isn't). But we can point out the imperfections in their portrayals too.

28 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Regarding rape in the series, there are two types

1.- As part of war atrocities and as far as I can recall, no such case of rape is explicitly described, despite happening in huge scale. Same with torture. We should be thankful for that.

2.- People have noted that most sex scenes are not unmistakably consensual, there is almost always some power play at work. From Ygritte with Jon, to Cersei with Taena. This is indeed a problem.

I'd also add Westerosi marriages under 2; which is why we praise Tyrion for we all know what.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

But my dude we need to see who Martin is. He's a straight man, probably never had a gay experience in his life. As a straight man myself I can tell you, I've never watched gay porn in my life, and someone who was born 60 years ago probably didn't see either. It's easier to fantasize about lesbians (because is two woman having sex) than fantasize about two guys banging, not just easy but more pleasuring to him. I understand your criticism regarding useless sex scenes in the books and I agree, so that's why we should wait for a more intimate (if we have any) sex scene with another gay couple. Because having a gay sex scene for the sake of having it is a problem in on itself.

[rotting sea cow]

Good rant Walda

3 hours ago, Walda said:

Also, I'd like to point out that the hetro sex is pretty crappy. There's a focus on stuffing things into vags as fast as possible.

sex scenes are not the strongest in the books. I truly believe GRRM should stay away of writing about sex.

3 hours ago, Walda said:

Are there actually any lesbian characters at all, open or suppressed?

Apparently none. Maybe Nym. IEllaria seems to be open to exploration.

3 hours ago, Walda said:

I tend to blame the Marist Brothers for his attitude towards sexuality.  He went to a Catholic boys school, and the Marist indoctrinate certain attitudes and beliefs about girls and women that are not compatible with the lived experience of people who actually associate with girls and women.

It may be part of the problem. Also his age should have some influence. Attitudes towards sex and women have changed significantly during his life and during the writing of the books.

3 hours ago, Walda said:

I suppose it's worse in the less civilised rape-based cultures, like that of the Ironborn, the Wildlings, the Dothraki.

I think there is a problem with the depiction of these cultures, particularly the Dothraki. Even if they are more "tolerant" to rape, they cannot have their culture based only on rape and pillage. Where are Dothraki mothers? brother and sisters? Even Dothraki do not seem to have his own personalities (besides Drogo). There is a problem here too.

3 hours ago, Walda said:

I suppose Jon Snow might still be that guy, he hasn't got around to raping Melisandre for reminding him of Ygritte or anything.

It is actually the other way around. Mel was trying to trick Jon into sex with her.

"The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." 

 

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Oh yes, he did, twice actually

"The fat man made good on the promised bath, though. No sooner did Tyrion lower himself into the hot water and close his eyes than he was fast asleep. He woke naked on a goose-down feather bed so soft it felt as if he had been swallowed by a cloud. His tongue was growing hair and his throat was raw, but his cock was as hard as an iron bar. He rolled from the bed, found a chamber pot, and commenced to filling it, with a groan of pleasure"

- Tyrion I, ADWD

Quite honestly, I always interpreted that as him having a good long piss. But then, we men know that it is not that easy to have a good long piss with a cock as hard as an iron bar, so I guess jerking off is more likely. Still, I really don't think he would have filled the chamber pot all that much.

The other scene I must have half remembered, but it is more a memory of a masturbation than an actual scene. Still, there could have been more of those. Tyrion is the only character who gets stuff like that, though.

25 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

But otherwise you are right, as far I can recall, these are the only two cases of masturbation in the books, despite having many young PoVs.

Well, this is not the kind of stuff you put in many books. I don't remember that I've read many masturbation scenes in (fantasy) books, and if you get them they are more often than not supposed to have some other hidden meaning, underlining or expressing something different. It is not treated as stuff pretty much everybody does because it is fun.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking about it, it is a shame that the gay sex life that must exist at the Wall has not been covered more. There seem to be some gay guys there that are in love with each other, but there must also be a lot of weird and clumsy 'assisted masturbation' kind of thing between some guys who like to kill time together. This is an exclusively male environment, and the people who feel not inclined to go to Mole's Town are basically stuck with their own hands or the hands of some brother. Quite a few would choose the latter.

Jon and Satin could really have been fun there.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Thinking about it, it is a shame that the gay sex life that must exist at the Wall has not been covered more. There seem to be some gay guys there that are in love with each other, but there must also be a lot of weird and clumsy 'assisted masturbation' kind of thing between some guys who like to kill time together. This is an exclusively male environment, and the people who feel not inclined to go to Mole's Town are basically stuck with their own hands or the hands of some brother. Quite a few would choose the latter.

Jon and Satin could really have been fun there.

Now that you touched on the subject, it's very strange that the series never mencioned gay people in the Wall, or at least giving us good hints of gayness. Because like you said, it's not possible for them to control their sexual drive for that long without wanting to prove other holes.

[rotting sea cow]

1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Now that you touched on the subject, it's very strange that the series never mencioned gay people in the Wall, or at least giving us good hints of gayness. Because like you said, it's not possible for them to control their sexual drive for that long without wanting to prove other holes.

There is one case, Runnymudd & Garth at the Wall , but again it is very subtle.

Given that there is no strong social or religious condemnation towards homosexuality in Westeros, it is of course strange that there are no more cases.