Hey kids, let's talk about the male gaze!

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

That was.. something, I'll grant you. Not very much depth. And so subtle as to almost not even be there. 

That was the character's whole motivation, all his depth. It's apparent when you say depth it's not narrative or character depth you mean, it's something else you want, the narrative to take a backseat here or there so homosexuality can take on screen prominence.

And those unnatural arguments for Christ's sake. It's a series where the central mystery was kept out of POV by a character for a whole book despite him thinking on it repeatedly. Yet it's suppressing some random gay thoughts of JC for two whole chapters so he could have the rooftop silver haired prince revelation scene that people call unnatural.

[sweetsunray]

23 hours ago, Maester Drew said:

It's been a while since I last read ASOS, but didn't Dany have sex with Irri because she was horny? At the time, her husband had been dead for almost a year (according to this timeline) so she hadn't had sex in a long time. Simply put, she needed release, and Irri was available.

What does this serve to Dany's character development? Not much, but I ask, does everything in a story have to contribute character development? But, the Synopsis of ASOS- Chapter 23 does mention that Dany did feel guilty for treating Irri like a sex slave, so, I'd actually count that as character development, especially when one considers her actions against slavery in later chapters.

Actually I regarded it as the character development, or more correctly a character signal, that she was coming out of widowhood. People who've lost a partner they're in love with and regard as their life-mate can go through a period of abstinence during their mourning. They don't want to have sex with someone else, so it sort of gets switched off. But after a long while, before they actually fall in love or develop a crush on someone else, the first signs is that they get aroused again, but without having an actual object of fantasy.

Jorah kisses her and she realizes he desires her. She doesn't want him, and yet she finds herself aroused, but in her mind the man is unidentified. Irri helps her along, which Dany accepts, imo because she does not regard Irri as an actual sexual partner nor love interest (eitehr way). Set the same character development of a widow in the modern age, and Dany would have grabbed for a vibrator. There aren't any, and Irri is the stand-in. Though George could have written the same scene without Irri's help, purely as a masturbation scene.

Shortly after she meets Daario and after that she has a man to fantasize about.

[HoodedCrow]

Sunsweetray said that very well. Also, the dragons are supposed to be fiery and passionate.

i think one reason(among many)  that Jon was involved with  Ygritte is so Jon is established as not a completely cold fish, or a woman hater as being reasons to join the Nights Watch. He is shown as not gay, for future decisions. He is not virginal r prudish. He may know nothing but he is not an idiot in bed, and he wants to please his partner.

So, Martin does sex scenes from a Cis male perspective because he is one. He probably knows his limitations.

Jee, JRRTolkien characters didn't have sex at all! The women were cardboard elf dollies. C S Lewis killed his characters before they could have any real sexual feelings, except Susan who went to hell, or something. Even Aslan didn't have Mrs Aslan!

 

[Renly's Banana]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

That was the character's whole motivation, all his depth. It's apparent when you say depth it's not narrative or character depth you mean, it's something else you want, the narrative to take a backseat here or there so homosexuality can take on screen prominence.

Yeah that's not what I said or meant, but alright. 

[chrisdaw]

16 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Yeah that's not what I said or meant, but alright. 

You lamented that GRRM had not given gay man JC any depth or desires. I pointed out you are wrong, he has depth and desires and it is intricately linked to his sexuality. You then dismiss the depth as 'something you suppose'. So obviously depth isn't your real concern here.

[HoodedCrow]

Sex is natural, and the human use of it depends on the people involved. 

I, for one would not try to write a gay male sex scene, not out of disgust, but out of ignorance. I suppose I might as an exercise of creativity. I would require feedback.

Ethan noticed Joes tight  buttocks How am I doing?

Anyway, I'm sure people here could do a lot better.

Joncon lost the Romantic love of his life who wasn't gay that we know of. He might be quite repressed in that society. Perhaps the author didn't want people to think, however wrongly, that Joncons interest in fighting for, and raising Aegon was lust based, rather than fatherly and loyalty based. His unrequited love for Rhaegar gives him a motive to accept Aegon as Rhaegar lost son, even though it is dubious. It might be partly a highly desired wish fulfillment. It gives depth to his actions to try to put Aegon on the throne, when there are more obvious Targs to support, like Dany.

[Philokles]

16 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Ethan noticed Joes tight  buttocks How am I doing?

Missing an apostrophe.

[HoodedCrow]

I have problems with typing, Kent:)

Okay. Ethan noticed Joe's tight buttocks. When he heard Joe's rich deep voice, he sighed to himself and felt some action in his pants.

Needs work.

[Tianzi]

5 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I have problems with typing, Kent:)

Okay. Ethan noticed Joe's tight buttocks. When he heard Joe's rich deep voice, he sighed to himself and felt some action in his pants.

Needs work.

His pink mast arised ready at the prospect of sailing into muddy Myrish lands.

[HoodedCrow]

That's the spirit, Tianzi:)

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

I have problems with typing, Kent:)

Okay. Ethan noticed Joe's tight buttocks. When he heard Joe's rich deep voice, he sighed to himself and felt some action in his pants.

Needs work.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[HoodedCrow]

I know, innuendo is hard not to do, once you open the door.

I have a very unsexual problems with my hands:)

[ftheking]

It's funny that you mention Harry Potter, OP. I will forever love how Harry goes one and on about Sririus Black's and Cedric Diggory's otherworldy beauty. Actually all kind of guys from drop dead gorgeous to kind of ugly, from beloved friends to enemies are described in loving eye brow raising detail - Ooh Harry, you noticed, huh? -  and when Harry is suppossed to explain what attracted him to his girlfriend he is completely lost. Uh, she's like hot. And soooo good at sports!! That would awaken anyone's chest monster, wouldn't it?

GRRM isn't even doing that bad compared to some women's female gaze! But yes, it's amusingly noticeable with him too.

...Plus I found the "Dumbledore and Grindelwald as teenagers excitedly exchanging owls all night long" story quite engaging (and less subtle than JonCon). On the other hand there is certainly no lesbian character in HP and not even a female relationship that has any potential sexual tension. 

It takes a very good author to hide their own sexual preferences, I guess.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

28 minutes ago, ftheking said:

It takes a very good author to hide their own sexual preferences, I guess.

It does. But that's why we are asking him to get better at doing so. He needs to in order to make some of the characters more human. Sex is a part of our lives and some character (for being gay) are simple left out of it is ridiculous.

[BricksAndSparrows]

On 5/2/2017 at 5:51 PM, JCRB's Honeypot said:

There is also a good share of ladies sexily daydreaming about their guys. Cersei about Rhaegar, Waters, and Jaime; Sansa about Sandor and Loras; Dany about Daario; Arianne about Oberyn. Women in Westeros also like to stare at guys and a lot.

 

I think the OP is making the point that while GRRM does acknowledge the desires of the female characters, the depictions of men, during those pov's are less erotic. He makes a point with his Brienne "Jamie looked half a god" (or something like that) line. I can kinda see what he's saying..Kinda sorta... I think @Tianzi made the best argument against his point.

 

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You lamented that GRRM had not given gay man JC any depth or desires. I pointed out you are wrong, he has depth and desires and it is intricately linked to his sexuality. You then dismiss the depth as 'something you suppose'. So obviously depth isn't your real concern here.

Just to toss this around here, I think there are actually hints that Jon Connington and Myles Toyne actually had an affair. That's why he misses the man as much as he does, and when Jon thinks of him he does so with a warmth that may hint at something more. He even can look beyond the the man's apparent ugliness.

We should also keep in mind that this series began in the early 1990s. Back then fantasy novels did not exactly depict a lot of gay character yet Renly and Loras are there, in AGoT. A gay romance is at the heart of the plot of TMK and with Lysono Maar we can even say there is a trans-person of some sort in the story (I maintain that Lysono has a thing for female stuff).

This kind of thing become more and more important for George as he was writing the books. One also assumes he just invented Egg's third son, Prince Daeron, to have another homosexual character who could feature heavily in later Dunk & Egg stories. Egg having three sons came as a huge surprise in ADwD. Prior to that we had only known about Duncan and Jaehaerys.

[Renly's Banana]

8 hours ago, Tianzi said:

His pink mast arised ready at the prospect of sailing into muddy Myrish lands.

Honestly better than 50% of GRRM's stuff already. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Honestly better than 50% of GRRM's stuff already. 

Too much boats reference.

[HoodedCrow]

I'll bet he did his best, and he did attempt representations of different characters. It's one of the things I love about his writing. He can't necessarily do this perfectly. I'd be willing to bet big money also that he supports people regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. He's a liberal, progressive, born straight and Catholic and is now not practicing. Something tells me he likes female mammories.

I understand that he also likes pizza, beer and football.

Maybe  one day his heirs will allow expansions. Also, your imagination can do some work:)

[Walda]

On 04/05/2017 at 5:46 AM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

I don't think this quote means what you think it means. She's saying that if a man tries to possess a woman by force, and he also has a knife in the house, then she can and will righteously murder him with it. That is to say, there's a deep cultural indictment of sex slavery -- all slavery, as we know. The subtext being that a man only gets to have a woman in his life when she chooses to be there. That's a sentiment we can unambiguously support. 

Let me put it this way:

Quote

Kerwin had come creeping to the captain to complain that four of the crew had dragged him belowdecks and used him as a woman. “Here is how you put an end to that,” Victarion had told him, slamming a dagger down on the table between them. Kerwin took the blade—too afraid to refuse it, the captain judged—but he had never used it.

(ADwD, Ch.56 The Iron Suitor)

Victarion decides that Kerwin engaged in consenting homosexual sex, because Kerwin did not want to commit four murders, or did not like his chances of being able to murder all four of his assailants and anyone who was happy to help them out, before he was overpowered and murdered himself with his own knife. His assailants were practised predators, and skilled at killing. They can see him coming if he voluntarily approaches them. They and all the crew they work with. Including Burton Humble.

Victarion identifies with his men, not with a soft boy from a pacifistic order. Victorian beat his wife to death with his bare hands because Euron had impregnated her, not necessarily consensually. Euron riled him up, knowing what he would do to her. No reason to believe Euron, who lies when it suits him, and makes no nicer distinctions between sex and rape than Victarion.

"If you don't avenge it with appalling and illegal premeditated violence, then you consented and condone it" is another appalling rape myth. Its purpose is to deny that 'real' rape happened. Men are much more apt to believe it than women.

ETA: Just to clarify, rape is when the perpetrator penetrates any orifice of another person with anything, if they have not given consent to that act, or if they change their minds and tell the perpetrator to stop but the perpetrator doesn't,  or if they are not able to withdraw consent (eg. are unconscious, are unaware of the situation they are in), or are not able to give consent (eg. children) and even if they agree under duress or threat (as perceived by the victim, not the perpetrator). Sexual assault covers the situations where the unwelcome sexual things happen without penetration. 

While not all definitions of rape focus on consent (lack thereof), there is not a legal system in the world that (openly) supports the idea that the way the victim behaves after the rape is what decides if the act was rape or not. Most legal systems have much higher penalties for pre-meditated murder than for rape, and are leery of giving cold-blooded murderers an solid all-purpose excuse for aquittal.