Pounding the Planet: Meteoric Thaumogenesis as Fertilization

[hiemal]

Edited the OP to mention my Time is Out of Joint theory, not because it has aliens but it's far-future weirwoods are close enough to be worth mentioning.

5. (For completeness) Time is Out of Joint. None of the species on Westeros are alien but are drawn different time periods- the Deep Ones from the primal past and the weirwoods/cotf from the far future.

5a. The weirwoods are trying to colonize the past.

5b. The Deep Ones are trying to subvert the future.

5c. The Geodawnians "broke" time by tinkering with things best left untinked.

 

Spitballing In God's Eye:

It could be that this was the "black" impact sight and that weirwoods responded like an antibody to an intruder or perhaps as tools to extract materials for building structures like Moat Cailin (if you are a very patient miner).

[hiemal]

On R'hlorr and the comet:

I have a fewtinfoils on that:

The BSE ended up second-lifing the red comet during the Blood-Betrayal after unsuccessfully attempting to usurp his sister's place, the second moon and also that he is sharing it with the Great Other (cramped!) and a third that the Great Other is his "other half" becoming more or less dominant as the comet gets closer or further from the sun.  So much tinfoil.

Spitballing with my current shiniest piece:

The Bloodstone Emperor's goal in the Blood Betrayal was immortality- godhood. He was partially successful. He created a soul cycle/system of magic based on fire, obsidian, and dragons. He partially controls the comet. He has also usurped the powers of his figurative mother the sun. If you are disinclined to believe Melisandre's distinction between shadows and darkness he may have usurped that of his father as well. Which just leads us back to the split personality thing. Someone (Lazy Leo?) described seeing a glass candle burning, and the how the shadows appeared darker in its light. Hmmmmm.

 

[Unchained]

11 hours ago, LmL said:

What's great is that the sigil of House Dayne is purple and white. I have long Peg them as descendants of the amethyst empress and the great Empire of the Dawn - I even call them amethyst Empress loyalists sometimes, them and the hightowers potentially. This is a really great find, because of course Dionysus is a stereotypical horned nature God type. 

As far as meteors go, what I am seeing is a bunch of black meteors coming from the second moon that was destroyed by the comet, with the one white meteor that made the sword Dawn being a bit of an oddball. Of course, the parallel, yet opposite symbolism extends to Valyrian steel swords when compared to Dawn. I have three basic ideas for where the white meteor could have come from:

- its the pure heart of the fallen NN moon. It represents her ghost, the part that wasn't eaten by Lightbringer (which absorbed her blood and strength and courage and soul). 

- it's a piece of the Comet that fragmented off before hit the Moon, making it a kind of original star sword. The problem with this is that Dawn would then have no moon connections - it's not the heart of a fallen star, but rather, just a fallen star. The heart of a fallen star language always makes me think about the heart of a moon, but I could be wrong

- my favorite idea is that Dawn is a piece of the other moon, what I think of as the ice Moon. That's the Moon that we still have in the sky, the one that didn't get obliterated by a comet. I have found a buttload of symbolism that shows one of those black meteors from the destroyed man becoming launched in ice, usually things which I believe symbolize the ice Moon. I think that Martin is conceiving of this as a kind of heart transplant, where the ice Moon loses its whiteheart and gains a new black heart. I have a feeling that there is a perfect parallel on the ground for this comma and that would be a black meteor in the heart of Winter which has something to do with animating the others. The others are very much like a model of my hypothetical ice Moon - they are beings of intense cold, but they have some sort of internal fire, which they have turned into a cold fire. The others eyes burn like cold stars, as if there is a cold star inside of their icy body. The TV show even has a parallel to this, which I will not to mention for sake of spoilers, but anyone who has watched the show will think about their version of how the others were created and know what I am talking about.

LmL, I read what I posted and realized I left out a couple things.  First, a disclaimer, it is not a "real" myth if there is such a thing.  A French poet named Remy Belleau wrote it.  It does not appear in antiquity.  I do not see that as a problem, but is worth mentioning.  

 

Second, the best part is that Artemis/Diana(Roman) wished 6 things to Zeus.  One of them was to be the Lightbringer.  I am not sure what being a Lightbringer means here, but she is.  So, we have a Lightbringer killing a woman to protect her from a horned, solar, fertiliy god who is drunk, turning her into a white stone which is then turned into an amytheyst.  That is hard to ignore.  

 

I think the story about the first kill made by the faceless men is another clue about Nissa Nissa.  She called the killer in some fashion.  The assassin killed her, but also the target.  The Valyrians killed by the Doom are a pretty good analogue for the BSE post blood betyral.  Just like Dany called Jorah at the tent of Joy, who saved her then killed her unborn child by dragging her into the tent.  Or, Will in the prologue calling the Others who kill Waymar who then gets his revenge on Will by strangulation.

 

@ravenous reader, I would never accuse you of being Melissandre.  You are a much wiser seer than she.  To add to your AGoT prologue analysis, which is a big game changer as I mentioned above I have more examples in my typical style of reading someone else's analysis of something and adding the obvious, Cersei sends a raven to Tywin in ACoK for a savior but gets Tyrion.  Tyrion is a fool knight here.  He is exactly what she needs and can fix all her problems.  However, he is a mocking individual, like the Other in the prologue.  To finish off the connection, she imagines Tyrion's hands strangling her after she finds Tywin's body.  Just like Jorah at the tent of Joy the summoned savior kills the target and also the caller's child.  Sansa gets her fool knight in the form of Dontos.  We even get a connection between Tyrion and Dontos by way of their introductions.  Joffrey and Cersei both address Tyrion as "You" in the beginning of ACoK and he resonds with "Me".  When Sansa sees Dontos in the godswood, she says something about "so it was you", and he says "Me".  She asks who sent him and he says "no one".  We later learn "no one" is Littlefinger.  On a different note, I saw your ideas about the Others being a secretion from the WWnet due to poison and the front door/back door analysis.  Drogo's wound pus is showing us this, I think.  More uncomfortably, I am a believer in Tywin being poisoned before his death.  If he was, then his being killed by his "son" releases his bowels.  Tywin does not shit gold, he symbolically shits Others out the back door after being poisoned.  Arya escapes out the back door when her NW party is killed, showing a pretty clear allusion to escaping from a burning tree.     

 

I have also seen both of you talk about weirwood treed purifying the enviroment, but not using the ACoK prologue.  That one can be read as an allegory as well to an extent.  Davos is AA unknowingly.  Cressen the dupe.  Melissandre is the prize I think.  Davos unwittingly gets Cressen to drink from his poison cup, just like Euron does to Vic when Euron offers Vic a drink of shade and Vic takes Euron's cup appearently fearing poison.  Anyway, Davos is the trickster AA.  Cressen in his antlered hat is the Garth tricked into throwing the fiery comet spear per @Crowfood's Daughter's work.  Mel is the weirwood tree that soaks up the poison and is immune.    

 

            

 

  

[Durran Durrandon]

@hiemal This might be a good place to bring forward a crack pot we were joking about on one of LML's threads. It was based on a passage that described the upturned roots of a tree as looking like tentacles reaching up. So the crackpot is that the Sea Stone Chair is  the petrified stump and roots of one of the inverted Weirwood trees we see outside of the House of the Undying.(We need a name for those things.
) Euron is drinking the Shade of the Evening, made from their blue leaves, to activate its power. This turns over the classic crackpot of the Seas Stone Chair is actually fallen black stone of the Bloodstone Emperor. If one imagines the black tree as seeded from space however, it could be both. (This is all totally in spitball mode.)

[hiemal]

29 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

@hiemal This might be a good place to bring forward a crack pot we were joking about on one of LML's threads. It was based on a passage that described the upturned roots of a tree as looking like tentacles reaching up. So the crackpot is that the Sea Stone Chair is  the petrified stump and roots of one of the inverted Weirwood trees we see outside of the House of the Undying.(We need a name for those things.
) Euron is drinking the Shade of the Evening, made from their blue leaves, to activate its power. This turns over the classic crackpot of the Seas Stone Chair is actually fallen black stone of the Bloodstone Emperor. If one imagines the black tree as seeded from space however, it could be both. (This is all totally in spitball mode.)

This the very place! The kraken as inverted tree. I love it.

[Durran Durrandon]

So, there is a thing that has always bothered me about the time line of the Dawn Era leading up to the Long Night. Deanery's vision of the Emperors of the Dawn has each of them holding a sword with pale flames. I think many of us agree that, to the extent that any of these are literal swords, that this isn't the same sword as Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, because Lightbringer was forged later by Azor Ahai, plus it's the Red Sword of Heroes not the Pale Sword of Heroes. But if this sword she sees is actually Dawn,and it was carved from the heart of a fallen star that fell at Star Fall, the this star falling is an event that is separated from the Long Night and the conjectured destruction of the second moon by thousands of years. It happened before the first men ever came to Westeros. It's seriously like the first historical event in the story. It could be that the God on Earth born of the Lion of Night and the Maiden made of Light is actually the same story as the star that fell at Star Fall. The Daynes then are not simply the descendants of a descendant of the Golden Emperors, they Golden Emperors are the descendants of a human who traveled to Start Fall to find the fallen star. Presumably, after forging the sword this ancestor returned to Essos to found the Golden Empire of the Dawn. Later, a descendant of the Golden Emperors (Amethyst Empress loyalists, perhaps) may have returned to this site, with the Dawn to found house Dayne.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, there is a thing that has always bothered me about the time line of the Dawn Era leading up to the Long Night. Deanery's vision of the Emperors of the Dawn has each of them holding a sword with pale flames. I think many of us agree that, to the extent that any of these are literal swords, that this isn't the same sword as Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, because Lightbringer was forged later by Azor Ahai, plus it's the Red Sword of Heroes not the Pale Sword of Heroes. But if this sword she sees is actually Dawn,and it was carved from the heart of a fallen star that fell at Star Fall, the this star falling is an event that is separated from the Long Night and the conjectured destruction of the second moon by thousands of years. It happened before the first men ever came to Westeros. It's seriously like the first historical event in the story. It could be that the God on Earth born of the Lion of Night and the Maiden made of Light is actually the same story as the star that fell at Star Fall. The Daynes then are not simply the descendants of a descendant of the Golden Emperors, they Golden Emperors are the descendants of a human who traveled to Start Fall to find the fallen star. Presumably, after forging the sword this ancestor returned to Essos to found the Golden Empire of the Dawn. Later, a descendant of the Golden Emperors (Amethyst Empress loyalists, perhaps) may have returned to this site, with the Dawn to found house Dayne.

The chronology is so muddled that almost any conjecture could be plausible. My own solution is a cycle of catastrophe's marking the outward expansions of each race and confrontations between an established race, making the Long Night the second such event most likely thousands of years prior to LN and the GEoDawn.

I conjecture that the Breaking of the Seasons is from this first catastrophe centered around the CotF and the Deep Ones and involved the construction of structures like Moat Cailin and Battle Island. I see the Gray King as a the AA figure this go-round (and I am not convinced he was human or GEoDawnian although Garth Greenhands might have been schlepping about) and wonder if his stealing lightening from the gods doesn't indicate his own attempted apotheosis during the Nagga event to subsume the natural force of electromagnetism- which is why we don't have any magnetic compasses on Planetos.

We are not told that the Daynes went to the Starfall site when the "stone" was freshly landed were we? It could be a thousands-year cold site that they were led to by prophecy perhaps.

[Durran Durrandon]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The chronology is so muddled that almost any conjecture could be plausible. My own solution is a cycle of catastrophe's marking the outward expansions of each race and confrontations between an established race, making the Long Night the second such event most likely thousands of years prior to LN and the GEoDawn.

I conjecture that the Breaking of the Seasons is from this first catastrophe centered around the CotF and the Deep Ones and involved the construction of structures like Moat Cailin and Battle Island. I see the Gray King as a the AA figure this go-round (and I am not convinced he was human or GEoDawnian although Garth Greenhands might have been schlepping about) and wonder if his stealing lightening from the gods doesn't indicate his own attempted apotheosis during the Nagga event to subsume the natural force of electromagnetism- which is why we don't have any magnetic compasses on Planetos.

We are not told that the Daynes went to the Starfall site when the "stone" was freshly landed were we? It could be a thousands-year cold site that they were led to by prophecy perhaps.

Okay, I'm still processing the first part (I have no immediate objections), but as for the Daynes. They might have come to site of the pale stone a thousand years after it landed (I think it says somewhere that they followed the falling start,but I would have to look that up.) It still stands that if they forged Dawn from its heart and Dawn is the sword in Deanery's dream that several thousand years pass between the forging of Dawn and the Long Night/Azor Ahai. The person who found the stone still stands to be the God Emperor who returned to Essos and founded the Golden Empire of the Dawn.

[hiemal]

36 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

Okay, I'm still processing the first part (I have no immediate objections), but as for the Daynes. They might have come to site of the pale stone a thousand years after it landed (I think it says somewhere that they followed the falling start,but I would have to look that up.) It still stands that if they forged Dawn from its heart and Dawn is the sword in Deanery's dream that several thousand years pass between the forging of Dawn and the Long Night/Azor Ahai. The person who found the stone still stands to be the God Emperor who returned to Essos and founded the Golden Empire of the Dawn.

Sounds good to me. I had previously been considering them as exiles from the GEoDawn but this offers some interesting new possibilites to consider. How do you see the Daynes in relation to Tarth and Evenfall and its Lord the Evenstar? If the Daynes represent the "Dawn" of the GEoDawn maybe the Tarths are the exiles who came at the end with the PtwP, LH, etc?

[hiemal]

Spitballing stone faces:

Perhaps the Weirwood Overmind (booya- surprise tinfoil) has already "infiltrated" the element of earth to some degree with their downwards seeking roots in the way I suggest R'hlorr has tectonic volcanism, the Great Other has glaciation and ice ages, and the Gray King may have done with the EM force.

The Seastone Chair:

The more I think about...

I've been tinfoiling for a while about the possibility that the Drowned God is a grove of weirwoods that was drowned during the war with the Deep Ones and corrupted by Oily Black Stone and petrified. Uprooted, this could make a serviceable kraken throne.

[LmL]

14 hours ago, Unchained said:

I have also seen both of you talk about weirwood treed purifying the enviroment, but not using the ACoK prologue.  That one can be read as an allegory as well to an extent.  Davos is AA unknowingly.  Cressen the dupe.  Melissandre is the prize I think.  Davos unwittingly gets Cressen to drink from his poison cup, just like Euron does to Vic when Euron offers Vic a drink of shade and Vic takes Euron's cup appearently fearing poison.  Anyway, Davos is the trickster AA.  Cressen in his antlered hat is the Garth tricked into throwing the fiery comet spear per @Crowfood's Daughter's work.  Mel is the weirwood tree that soaks up the poison and is immune.

A man will be enjoying my next episode, I am thinking  

[LmL]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

4 hours ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, there is a thing that has always bothered me about the time line of the Dawn Era leading up to the Long Night. Deanery's vision of the Emperors of the Dawn has each of them holding a sword with pale flames. I think many of us agree that, to the extent that any of these are literal swords, that this isn't the same sword as Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, because Lightbringer was forged later by Azor Ahai, plus it's the Red Sword of Heroes not the Pale Sword of Heroes. But if this sword she sees is actually Dawn,and it was carved from the heart of a fallen star that fell at Star Fall, the this star falling is an event that is separated from the Long Night and the conjectured destruction of the second moon by thousands of years. It happened before the first men ever came to Westeros. It's seriously like the first historical event in the story. It could be that the God on Earth born of the Lion of Night and the Maiden made of Light is actually the same story as the star that fell at Star Fall. The Daynes then are not simply the descendants of a descendant of the Golden Emperors, they Golden Emperors are the descendants of a human who traveled to Start Fall to find the fallen star. Presumably, after forging the sword this ancestor returned to Essos to found the Golden Empire of the Dawn. Later, a descendant of the Golden Emperors (Amethyst Empress loyalists, perhaps) may have returned to this site, with the Dawn to found house Dayne.

The chronology is so muddled that almost any conjecture could be plausible. My own solution is a cycle of catastrophe's marking the outward expansions of each race and confrontations between an established race, making the Long Night the second such event most likely thousands of years prior to LN and the GEoDawn.

I conjecture that the Breaking of the Seasons is from this first catastrophe centered around the CotF and the Deep Ones and involved the construction of structures like Moat Cailin and Battle Island. I see the Gray King as a the AA figure this go-round (and I am not convinced he was human or GEoDawnian although Garth Greenhands might have been schlepping about) and wonder if his stealing lightening from the gods doesn't indicate his own attempted apotheosis during the Nagga event to subsume the natural force of electromagnetism- which is why we don't have any magnetic compasses on Planetos.

We are not told that the Daynes went to the Starfall site when the "stone" was freshly landed were we? It could be a thousands-year cold site that they were led to by prophecy perhaps.

I am geerally not a fan of two separate meteor events - mostly because I have detected symbolism to suggests this - but on the occasions we've entertained the possibility, the big suspect is the God Emperor who descended to earth like an Evenstar figure and ascended back to heaven like the Morningstar, and specifically his pearl shaped palanquin. They have been carving swords off the palanquin like the ancient Ironborn carved swords from the seastone chair (my tinfoil). 

The simple explanation for the fiery sword tech in the hands of Dany's ancestors, presumably from the GEotD, is that they were not meteor swords, just magic flaming swords. BSE / AA would have taken their flaming sword tech and simply used the black meteor instead of regular steel to make evil Lightbringer. 

[LmL]

On 5/5/2017 at 2:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

I think the Dawn sword and its dark counterpart were created simultaneously, by the same impact, like the diverging fates of the twins Jaime and Cersei, yet with a common origin.  The Dawn sword is the memory of the impact, the remnant, and the revenant.  

This makes the most sense on a storytelling level I think.

On 5/5/2017 at 2:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

P.S.  'a black meteor at the heart of winter':  Thank you; 'the heart of ice is fire; the heart of fire is ice', as I proclaimed many moons ago!  And now I shall take a bow to myself:   RR, the Poetess.

It was my suggestion of a black meteor in the heart of winter and the ice moon which prompted you to make this declaration, but you still have not found any ice in the heart of fire, I would maintain. Not saying it isn't there, and I do love symmetry, but... I just haven't seen that yet. It could be that white hot fire stands in for cold somehow, but apart from that...

[LmL]

On 5/5/2017 at 0:42 AM, Blue Tiger said:

LML, would you say that she sees the past or the future? Or that it doesn't really matter?

Probably the right answer is that she is seeing a lot of layers of vision at once. It has meanings for the main plot as well as mythical astronomy (meaning both the dawn age and the future resolution). 

[Unchained]

43 minutes ago, LmL said:

A man will be enjoying my next episode, I am thinking  

So the one about women, stigmata, and soaking up sins is next.  Should be good. I recently learned amethyst means "not intoxicated".  Greeks would wear them or put them on their drinking cups to prevent intoxication.  Mel's ruby seems to be performing that role here, and obviously it further ties the AE to sin absorbing trees.  Rhea gave one to Dionysus to combat madness.  

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, LmL said:

I am geerally not a fan of two separate meteor events - mostly because I have detected symbolism to suggests this - but on the occasions we've entertained the possibility, the big suspect is the God Emperor who descended to earth like an Evenstar figure and ascended back to heaven like the Morningstar, and specifically his pearl shaped palanquin. They have been carving swords off the palanquin like the ancient Ironborn carved swords from the seastone chair (my tinfoil). 

The simple explanation for the fiery sword tech in the hands of Dany's ancestors, presumably from the GEotD, is that they were not meteor swords, just magic flaming swords. BSE / AA would have taken their flaming sword tech and simply used the black meteor instead of regular steel to make evil Lightbringer. 

Excellent tinfoil!

Spitballing- were we in semi-agreement on the black stone as an inverse Magna Mater, an artifact of Kali?

Could LB be viewed as a tongue of Kali, a tool of the hungry void, covered in flames that consume without purifying? A "feminine" phallus?

[Unchained]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Excellent tinfoil!

Spitballing- I think we were in semi-agreement on the black stone as an inverse Magna Mater, an artifact of Kali?

Could LB be viewed as a tongue of Kali, a tool of the hungry void, covered in flames that consume without purifying? A "feminine" phallus?

I realize I keep asking you questions about what you say, but I hope you take it as a compliment because I want to understand what you have to say.  Magma Mater is one I only have Wikipedia level knowledge of, I know she is all muddled up with Rhea at least in the west.  Just like Rhea, she cures Dionysus of his madness.  Rhea does it with an amethyst like I mentioned above.  Magna Mater brings a black meteor into the equation.  Rather that whatever "real mythology" is GRRM seems to use myth from the west's perspective.  Magna is a stranger from a foreign land.  Like AA and the seastone chair and the dragon people that brought it or carved it.  I have also wondered if Dany the foreigner as Mhysa is a reference to her.  How is LB an inversion?  It seems like it is a correlation to me.  

[hiemal]

Just now, Unchained said:

I realize I keep asking you questions about what you say, but I hope you take it as a compliment because I want to understand what you have to say.  Magma Mater is one I only have Wikipedia level knowledge of, I know she is all muddled up with Rhea at least in the west.  Just like Rhea, she cures Dionysus of his madness.  Rhea does it with an amethyst like I mentioned above.  Magna Mater brings a black meteor into the equation.  Rather that whatever "real mythology" is GRRM seems to use myth from the west's perspective.  Magna is a stranger from a foreign land. 

When spelled out so clearly I have a hard time arguing with it but...

What I know of the BSE and the events leading up to the Long Night seem to me a combination of the Magna Mater and a debased, Lovecraftian/Deep One Kali-esque melange. There's just something unwholesome about it. Actual history isn't enough. He has to GRRMerize it- Hadrian's Wall becomes 700 feet and made of Ice; The Lighthouse of Alexandria becomes the High Tower in Oldtown and is even taller.

Ultimately, I think of the black stone as equal parts Magna Mater and Black Philosopher's Stone/Unholy Grail. Not to muddy the waters even more.

[LmL]

@Unchained, @hiemal

You might simply ask this question as "does George think reaching for the fire of the gods is a good thing or not?"

As much as I talk about the concept, I can't give a definitive answer. I know that he sure punishes the reachers heavily; but we all get the feeling that we are to have a situation where we need anti-heroes. We are going to need people to use the dangerous sword without a hilt. I think the green zombie series made this clear for me - raising the dead is wrong. It's a violation of nature. And it had to be done, I think. It had to be done because man did some other evil shit and something had to be atoned for ( @ravenous reader this is one of the best things Voice hit on in his miasma theory, the idea of atonement and a curse following an original sin ).

So in terms of moon meteors and Lightbringer - look, Lightbringer was bad. At first, it was definitely an abomination. And that goes for the other form of Lightbringer, the other fire of the gods - skinchanging the weirwoods. Abomination, I say. But back to Lightbringer the sword. Just look to the original myth, and look to the reaction of Davos, a good man in the story if there ever was one. The original Lightbringer story involves human sacrifice and blood magic - abomination. Don't think that morality is somehow suspended or different because there is magic in this world - human sacrifice is wrong, don't question your instinct. Using blood magic and human sacrifice to create a sword - that's fucking evil. I truly believe Martin gave us this kind of story wrapped in the label "hero" to test us, or to cause us to examine ourselves, however you want to say it. On top of that, this abomination was so evil that it cracked the face of the fucking moon. What did the moon do, I ask you? So it eclipsed the sun for half a second, what's the big deal?

So, before we figure out anything else, we have a story about some asshole who murdered his wife, worked dark magic, broke the moon, and ended up with a flaming sword for his trouble. Now consider Davos's reaction when hearing this story, the same reaction that everyone reading the book should have (unless you're truly twisted, you sick bastards you  ):

Quote

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay.

But Davos is made of the stuff of heroes, I think we would all agree. Precisely because he wouldn't stab his wife or some kid like Edric Storm to work dark magic in order to "save the day." He was also right when he smuggled Edric off the island and challenged Stannis to step up and defend his realm like an honorable king. That was the best thing Stannis has done in the story, though I think he will take Winterfell as well. Anyway, Davos is the man, and blood magic is abomination. Ergo, the sword made with such is abomination. 

That is without considering all of my more symbolic clues about black meteors and black swords and black fyre swords and black dragons and all that; symbolism which has me quite convinced that Azor Ahai made "Lightbringer" from a black meteor. 

Now, let's think about the Bloodstone Emperor and the Amethyst Empress. Some people prefer the Bloodstone and AA as separate people, some buy my and @Durran Durrandon's notion that they were the same dude (and I am ok with a father son thing myself). However, everyone seems to agree that Nissa Nissa and the Amethyst Empress were the same, because Dany so obviously combines the symbolism of Nissa Nissa and the Amethyst Empress. In fact, tinfoil you heard here first, Euron will kill Dany, completing her AE symbolism. She becomes a zombie, her and Jon live happily ever after, fuck all you haters. We get the storybook ending, but they are both half-dead. It's perfect. /tinfoil 

Point being, the murder of AE was the Blood Betrayal, and act of evil so heinous it caused the sun (in one tale) or the Maiden Made of Light (in another tale, because MMOL = the sun) to turn it's face, thus ushering in the Long Night. If AE = NN, then we are right back to AA causing the Long Night by killing NN, and that is the forging of Lightbringer we are speaking of, when the moon cracked. That all makes sense, if you like my theory - moon cracking turns out the lights. But to the point of our inquiry about the nature of Lightbringer, the creation of it was an abomination. Breaking the moon, abomination. But. But. 

Inside the problem lies the solution. We shouldn't have purchased the black moon pearl of great price, because it cost us dearly. Somehow, the LN events set in motion by AA / BSE the moon breaker resulted in an invasion of the Others in Westeros - that's bad. But, now we have this big problem, and we have this sword without a hilt sitting here... so... if anyone tries to pick it up and use it, it will destroy them (think of lightbringer like the one ring of Tolkien in this sense). But someone needs to do it. So, my guess is the asshole who was responsible for moon breaking might be the one called upon to become a crappy zombie and go into the frozen lands to fight the Others. Or maybe, it was his son, wanting to atone for the sins of his father. There are a few storylines which could make sense and find parallels in the main story. But whomever stepped up to wield the sword, I think that person also had to become a zombie (a greenseer zombie), so this would be a great sacrifice. It's in keeping with the idea of Lightbringer as an evil blade which extracts a cost on the wielder. 

The other big wrinkle we have is all the bajillion clues about broken swords and splitting and reforging swords. The LH broke his sword, Beric's sword broke (Beric's ancestor broke his sword too, in the founding myth of the House, just to make it clear), and Waymar's sword broke, like a tree struck by lightning. That broken sword is the fire of the gods - Lightbringer - just as the tree struck by lighting is. So the broken sword can still kill, and can still be reforged, as it is said: 

Quote

 

Mance Rayder swore an oath as well," Marsh went on. "He vowed to wear no crowns, take no wife, father no sons. Then he turned his cloak, did all those things, and led a fearsome host against the realm. It is the remnants of that host that waits beyond the Wall."

"Broken remnants."

"A broken sword can be reforged. A broken sword can kill."

 

So, in conclusion, Lightbringer may have undergone a breaking and possibly even a reforging on the way. I mean christ, maybe it was turned white somehow. I don't think so, but it's definitely in play. What I do feel strongly about is that its creation was the cause of the Long Night, and was an abomination. But I suspect someone found a way to use it, at great personal expense, to help save the day, either directly or indirectly. You can also think about Lightbringer as a remnant of Nissa Nissa, so a redemption or cleansing of Lightbringer might be a redemption or cleansing of Nissa Nissa's ghost or some such. 

Also, I'd like to remind you especially @hiemal of an idea I have. The legend of Dawn says it came from a meteor. The we have a magic sword and a black meteor in the eastern stories, and I have pieced it together to say "black meteor sword." So, do we have TWO meteor swords, one black and one white? Well, maybe, may-be. But, what if Dawn is the original Ice, and not a meteor sword at all, but made of ice and magic and whatever else (white dragonglass = milkglass, perhaps)? There are a few theories out there about Dawn being original Ice, and I think it's at least 50/50 or more that it is... it could still be a meteor sword and original Ice, too... but it might not be a meteor sword, and here's how. 

The Daynes are descended from the AE and they took the meteor sword with them when they migrated, as migrating peoples do. In time the myth became localized. The original Ice sword (now called Dawn) was taken to Starfall to keep it away from cold magic users who are a holy terror with Dawn, just as Ned ( a King of Winter person) brought Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ. In time, the meteor sword myth became associated with Dawn, but the myth is from the east and Dawn is from the north, where the dawn lights are (aurora borealis). (hat tip RR). 

Here's where I am at: I am damn sure a black meteor fell in the east and became a flaming sword. I am not sure if a white meteor also fell in the west as well. I tend to think it did, and that we do indeed have two meteor swords (which is needed to have a good meteor sword fight, after all). But I wanted to simply introduce a possible rationale for Dawn not even being a meteor sword at all.   

[hiemal]

17 hours ago, LmL said:

 

You might simply ask this question as "does George think reaching for the fire of the gods is a good thing or not?"

That's a great way to boil it down.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

 

 

 (  this is one of the best things Voice hit on in his miasma theory, the idea of atonement and a curse following an original sin ).

 

And again!

17 hours ago, LmL said:

So in terms of moon meteors and Lightbringer - look, Lightbringer was bad. At first, it was definitely an abomination. And that goes for the other form of Lightbringer, the other fire of the gods - skinchanging the weirwoods. Abomination, I say. But back to Lightbringer the sword. Just look to the original myth, and look to the reaction of Davos, a good man in the story if there ever was one. The original Lightbringer story involves human sacrifice and blood magic - abomination. Don't think that morality is somehow suspended or different because there is magic in this world - human sacrifice is wrong, don't question your instinct. Using blood magic and human sacrifice to create a sword - that's fucking evil. I truly believe Martin gave us this kind of story wrapped in the label "hero" to test us, or to cause us to examine ourselves, however you want to say it. On top of that, this abomination was so evil that it cracked the face of the fucking moon. What did the moon do, I ask you? So it eclipsed the sun for half a second, what's the big deal?

So, before we figure out anything else, we have a story about some asshole who murdered his wife, worked dark magic, broke the moon, and ended up with a flaming sword for his trouble. Now consider Davos's reaction when hearing this story, the same reaction that everyone reading the book should have (unless you're truly twisted, you sick bastards you  ):

But Davos is made of the stuff of heroes, I think we would all agree. Precisely because he wouldn't stab his wife or some kid like Edric Storm to work dark magic in order to "save the day." He was also right when he smuggled Edric off the island and challenged Stannis to step up and defend his realm like an honorable king. That was the best thing Stannis has done in the story, though I think he will take Winterfell as well. Anyway, Davos is the man, and blood magic is abomination. Ergo, the sword made with such is abomination. 

That is without considering all of my more symbolic clues about black meteors and black swords and black fyre swords and black dragons and all that; symbolism which has me quite convinced that Azor Ahai made "Lightbringer" from a black meteor.

 

With you 100%. Davos cuts right through the R'hlorrian smoke and mirrors. My main confusion at this point in this particular area is the extant to which these acts are playing out on different levels or stages. For example, with the forging of Lighbringer, the Blade of Usurpers if I might coin a new phrase, we have (I believe) 3 levels of activity- physical (a sword), biological ( a child), and celestial (the Long Night). So we have the black blade of (anti) heroes, someone to wield it, and a crisis to solve all springing from this one act. If, as I suspect, the Amethyst Empress died in childbirth delivering the LH (?) (so much confusion- I think the 1st PtwP was from her previous marriage?) does that still qualify as the blood sacrifice or was there another, larger spilling of blood involved?

17 hours ago, LmL said:

 

The other big wrinkle we have is all the bajillion clues about broken swords and splitting and reforging swords. The LH broke his sword, Beric's sword broke (Beric's ancestor broke his sword too, in the founding myth of the House, just to make it clear), and Waymar's sword broke, like a tree struck by lightning. That broken sword is the fire of the gods - Lightbringer - just as the tree struck by lighting is. So the broken sword can still kill, and can still be reforged, as it is said: 

So, in conclusion, Lightbringer may have undergone a breaking and possibly even a reforging on the way. I mean christ, maybe it was turned white somehow. I don't think so, but it's definitely in play. What I do feel strongly about is that its creation was the cause of the Long Night, and was an abomination. But I suspect someone found a way to use it, at great personal expense, to help save the day, either directly or indirectly. You can also think about Lightbringer as a remnant of Nissa Nissa, so a redemption or cleansing of Lightbringer might be a redemption or cleansing of Nissa Nissa's ghost or some such. 

 

 

I like that a lot. I suspect that the child is cleaning up his father's mess so redeeming his mother would be a nice bonus. And of course, confusing the issue by changing the blade would be right up GRRM's alley.

17 hours ago, LmL said:

 

 

 

Also, I'd like to remind you especially @hiemal of an idea I have. The legend of Dawn says it came from a meteor. The we have a magic sword and a black meteor in the eastern stories, and I have pieced it together to say "black meteor sword." So, do we have TWO meteor swords, one black and one white? Well, maybe, may-be. But, what if Dawn is the original Ice, and not a meteor sword at all, but made of ice and magic and whatever else (white dragonglass = milkglass, perhaps)? There are a few theories out there about Dawn being original Ice, and I think it's at least 50/50 or more that it is... it could still be a meteor sword and original Ice, too... but it might not be a meteor sword, and here's how. 

The Daynes are descended from the AE and they took the meteor sword with them when they migrated, as migrating peoples do. In time the myth became localized. The original Ice sword (now called Dawn) was taken to Starfall to keep it away from cold magic users who are a holy terror with Dawn, just as Ned ( a King of Winter person) brought Dawn to Starfall after the ToJ. In time, the meteor sword myth became associated with Dawn, but the myth is from the east and Dawn is from the north, where the dawn lights are (aurora borealis). (hat tip RR). 

Here's where I am at: I am damn sure a black meteor fell in the east and became a flaming sword. I am not sure if a white meteor also fell in the west as well. I tend to think it did, and that we do indeed have two meteor swords (which is needed to have a good meteor sword fight, after all). But I wanted to simply introduce a possible rationale for Dawn not even being a meteor sword at all.   

And I'm glad you did. I've a few tinfoils of my own on the ICE/Dawn link after reading... was it Voice's theory? Ice is a conundrum isn't it? What do you think of the idea that the BSE's stone actually fell in the West and was transported Magna Mater-style to Essos?