Discipline and Winning the Game

[Texas Hold Em]

Robb was a going to lose from the start because he lacked self-discipline.  He lacked the mental strength to stay the course and do what needed doing instead of what he personally wanted to do.  I am a casual poker player but an even bigger fan of it.  I know how important it is to avoid impulsivity(sp?) and to remain focused.  I want to carry this idea to the game of thrones.  By no means is self discipline the only trait required to win but it is perhaps the most important one.  With that in mind, I made a ranked list of the people whom I believe possess self-discipline.

 

1. Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven
2. Greyworm
3. Petyr Baelish
4. Varys
5. Ned Stark
6. Daenerys Targaryen
7. Roose Bolton
8. Walder Frey
9. The Green Grace
10. Doran Martell
11. Tywin Lannister
12. Stannis Baratheon
13. Hizdahr Zo Loraq
14. Lothar Frey
15. Barristan Selmy
16. Grand Maester Pycelle
17. Missandei
18. Margery Tyrell
19. Big Walder Frey
20. Mellisandre

List your own rank and let me know what you think.  Enjoy!

[Ser Loras The Gay]

Could you please elaborate on how dany is that high on the list?

[Nocturne]

I think you are confusing mental discipline with military discipline. Ned lacked the former and was excellent in the latter, and should not be ranked that high or anywhere in the least actually.

 

[Nocturne]

1 minute ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Could you please elaborate on how dany is that high on the list?

My guess is that again he is mixing his apples with oranges. Dany is resilient, but she demonstrated time and time again to be impulsive and make hasty decisions. (some may be attributed to her being young though). Il come up with a top 5 list soon ( to lazy to think of more).

 

 

[Nocturne]

Ok so before i make my list, i want to make it clear what discipline means in my view, and what kind of discipline is required to play the game. Discipline should be a combination of patience and ruthlessness.

A player should know to wait for the perfect opportunity to make his move, and he should execute set move with ruthlessness. For example Ned had the perfect opportunity to check mate the Lannister when he could have taken Cersei and her kids into custody. Instead of being ruthless, his compassion got in the way of keeping his head.

Edit: oops double post.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Could you please elaborate on how dany is that high on the list?

In my opinion, she has the discipline to set aside her personal desires in order to accomplish the task at hand.  She set Daario aside to win temporary peace.  Since Robb was used as an example, I will use him too.  Robb failed to do what should be done when it was his turn to decide.  So I can see why Robb would be considered undisciplined by comparison.  

1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Robb was a going to lose from the start because he lacked self-discipline.  He lacked the mental strength to stay the course and do what needed doing instead of what he personally wanted to do.  I am a casual poker player but an even bigger fan of it.  I know how important it is to avoid impulsivity(sp?) and to remain focused.  I want to carry this idea to the game of thrones.  By no means is self discipline the only trait required to win but it is perhaps the most important one.  With that in mind, I made a ranked list of the people whom I believe possess self-discipline.

 

1. Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven
2. Greyworm
3. Petyr Baelish
4. Varys
5. Ned Stark
6. Daenerys Targaryen
7. Roose Bolton
8. Walder Frey
9. The Green Grace
10. Doran Martell
11. Tywin Lannister
12. Stannis Baratheon
13. Hizdahr Zo Loraq
14. Lothar Frey
15. Barristan Selmy
16. Grand Maester Pycelle
17. Missandei
18. Margery Tyrell
19. Big Walder Frey
20. Mellisandre

List your own rank and let me know what you think.  Enjoy!

The list is quite comprehensive.  I would add Illyrio Mopatis to that list.  The Queen of Thorns.  

[Philokles]

Arya post-Harrenhal. Meanwhile AGOT Arya is on the opposite list with Dany.

[Damon_Tor]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Could you please elaborate on how dany is that high on the list?

And above Doran Martell too.

If the story is all about being focused and not letting oneself get distracted, it doesn't really make too much sense considering how much she put off invading Westeros. Essos was a means to that end, and she forgot that at some point.

Meanwhile Doran has been willing to sacrifice his children to meet his goals. Maybe he's so low on the list because we don't understand his goals well enough to judge how well he's focused on them? That's fair, I guess. But we also don't understand Littlefinger's goals very well and he's sitting pretty as the highest ranked intact male, so...

[SeaWitch]

Petyr is a gambler, and he adapts.  I'm not sure he has clear goals, despite what he says at any given point. If circumstances change, he'll tailor a response.  

once a character begins to care about the consequences to other people, it slows their ability to act.  It's a very unpleasant world, that seems to require a clear, cold selfishness to survive it.

[Moiraine Sedai]

5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

And above Doran Martell too.

If the story is all about being focused and not letting oneself get distracted, it doesn't really make too much sense considering how much she put off invading Westeros. Essos was a means to that end, and she forgot that at some point.

Meanwhile Doran has been willing to sacrifice his children to meet his goals. Maybe he's so low on the list because we don't understand his goals well enough to judge how well he's focused on them? That's fair, I guess. But we also don't understand Littlefinger's goals very well and he's sitting pretty as the highest ranked intact male, so...

I take discipline in this discussion to mean self-control.   Varys, LF, Tywin, Doran, Daenerys, and others on the op list certainly have it.  I don't think Dany forgot about Westeros.  She wanted to help the slaves and give them a chance at a better life.  The way she handled herself in Astapor during the negotiations, the self control she had in pretending not to understand the language, her composure, are remarkable and will continue to serve her well in the game.  

Baelish hates the Tully's, Starks, and Lannisters yet they all believed him a friend.  He has good control of himself and that requires discipline.  I don't really believe that he loves Sansa.  She's just a pawn in his game.  

Lothar too has good control.  They hated the Starks after what Robb did but he played them well enough to make them think they had a deal.  Roose is Mr. Cool and he's another disciplined person, but he messed up and had Ramsey in a fit of lust.  I would move him down a bit.

[Traverys]

Daenerys freed slaves without thinking about the implications for three cities along a bay aptly named for their only source of economy. That was impulsive. Oh, and she also impulsively runs out into a throng of poor ex-slaves dying from a plague (that she, arguably, brought about). She broke off her relationship with Daario, yes, but the fact that she had one with him that everyone knew about was very undisciplined. I think you could also argue that if she was as disciplined as you claim she would have found a way to use Jorah to her advantage as an agent rather than flat out banishing him. And then there's also that bit about a suicide mission that happened before... Both impulse responses to feeling betrayed.

This is not to imply she is a unintelligent person or unclever, but her gut response to most things is emotional. Maybe one day she'll get to the point where she should be on the list (she's young, of course), but I currently I just don't see how she currently qualifies.

[Damon_Tor]

5 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Daenerys freed slaves without thinking about the implications for three cities along a bay aptly named for their only source of economy. That was impulsive. Oh, and she also impulsively runs out into a throng of poor ex-slaves dying from a plague (that she, arguably, brought about). She broke off her relationship with Daario, yes, but the fact that she had one with him that everyone knew about was very undisciplined. I think you could also argue that if she was as disciplined as you claim she would have found a way to use Jorah to her advantage as an agent rather than flat out banishing him. And then there's also that bit about a suicide mission that happened before... Both impulse responses to feeling betrayed.

This is not to imply she is a unintelligent person or unclever, but her gut response to most things is emotional. Maybe one day she'll get to the point where she should be on the list (she's young, of course), but I currently I just don't see how she currently qualifies.

This is pretty much how I see it. The conditions in Slaver's Bay are worse after her conquest, for both former masters and former slaves. She doesn't think things through logically, and as a viewpoint character we can see how she thinks: when she meets Quentyn she disqualifies him because she isn't attracted to him, comparing him unfavorably to his larger and more athletic companion. That's not the mind of someone disciplined.

[Traverys]

10 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

This is pretty much how I see it. The conditions in Slaver's Bay are worse after her conquest, for both former masters and former slaves. She doesn't think things through logically, and as a viewpoint character we can see how she thinks: when she meets Quentyn she disqualifies him because she isn't attracted to him, comparing him unfavorably to his larger and more athletic companion. That's not the mind of someone disciplined.

Yes, she sees him and sees an unattractive boy rather than another large addition to her army (as a disciplined person would have at least considered).

Even though I made a list of a few things, the biggest indicator is really how she has let herself take her eye off her prize (i.e., the iron throne). The original poster included that as part of his definition of a disciplined person. None of what's happening in Slaver's Bay is actively contributing to her cause. Safe to say she has let herself be distracted to the extreme.

[Texas Hold Em]

1 hour ago, Traverys said:

Daenerys freed slaves without thinking about the implications for three cities along a bay aptly named for their only source of economy. That was impulsive. Oh, and she also impulsively runs out into a throng of poor ex-slaves dying from a plague (that she, arguably, brought about). She broke off her relationship with Daario, yes, but the fact that she had one with him that everyone knew about was very undisciplined. I think you could also argue that if she was as disciplined as you claim she would have found a way to use Jorah to her advantage as an agent rather than flat out banishing him. And then there's also that bit about a suicide mission that happened before... Both impulse responses to feeling betrayed.

This is not to imply she is a unintelligent person or unclever, but her gut response to most things is emotional. Maybe one day she'll get to the point where she should be on the list (she's young, of course), but I currently I just don't see how she currently qualifies.

Then you and I disagree.  Waiting would be the worst possible decision when it came to Slaver's Bay.  Nothing will ever replace slavery as a source of easy income and a way to stroke the egos of the masters.  Without slavery, there are no masters.  Slavery needed to end sooner rather than later.  No amount of planning will create an economy and a social status to replace it.  The masters do not deserve to maintain their lofty social status.  They needed to be brought down.  It is not impulse to run out and show compassion among the sick.  She knew she had a very strong immune system.  Having Daario around was fine, but when the time came that ending that relationship would benefit peace, she chose to set him aside and marry someone she doesn't love.  That is self-discipline.  Robb's self-discipline in comparison is garbage. 

 

[Texas Hold Em]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

This is pretty much how I see it. The conditions in Slaver's Bay are worse after her conquest, for both former masters and former slaves. She doesn't think things through logically, and as a viewpoint character we can see how she thinks: when she meets Quentyn she disqualifies him because she isn't attracted to him, comparing him unfavorably to his larger and more athletic companion. That's not the mind of someone disciplined.

I'm not attacking you, just your opinion.  And the bolded statement is full of bullcrap.  Worse for the masters?  Yeah.  Better for the vast majority of the slaves.  How long did it take for the southern US to recover from slavery?  A very long time.  Slaver's Bay is making better progress.  She rejected Quentyn because the immediate problem at hand was stopping the Harpy from murdering more people.  The problem at Slaver's Bay is the fault of the harpy, not the liberator.  She made the right call on Quentyn.  Quentyn was a loser and he would have dragged down everyone around him down.  He was not offering a solution to the current problem.  Quentyn and the Martells were over promising and they would most certainly under deliver. 

[Traverys]

1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Then you and I disagree.  Waiting would be the worst possible decision when it came to Slaver's Bay.  Nothing will ever replace slavery as a source of easy income and a way to stroke the egos of the masters.  Without slavery, there are no masters.  Slavery needed to end sooner rather than later.  No amount of planning will create an economy and a social status to replace it.  The masters do not deserve to maintain their lofty social status.  They needed to be brought down.  It is not impulse to run out and show compassion among the sick.  She knew she had a very strong immune system.  Having Daario around was fine, but when the time came that ending that relationship would benefit peace, she chose to set him aside and marry someone she doesn't love.  That is self-discipline.  Robb's self-discipline in comparison is garbage. 

 

You haven't really listed what Robb Stark did to inspire your ire towards his discipline. Because he slept with Jeyne or because he married her? I seem to recall Daenerys sleeping with someone inappropriate and then marrying someone else inapproprate. The latter offers nothing towards her conquest of Westeros. Her hand in marriage would score her a big alliance with any major house with eligible lords or heirs. Now she's married to a foreign nobody as far as the Westerosi nobles are concerned. How is that a disciplined response in any way? She's thinking of the here-and-now situation with Meereen rather than the future.

And you also didn't address the fact she lingered in Slaver's Bay to begin with instead of sailing to Westeros to get her throne. You mentioned that you define being undisciplined (when playing poker) as letting yourself get distracted. People will claim she's in Meereen learning how to rule as far as the plot goes, but that was not her intention. She never says or thinks "hey, let me rule Meereen for a bit to get practice for Westeros."

[Makk]

How is Robb so different from Ned? I don't think you need mental discipline to win the game of thrones. Like most good games there are different ways of winning and you need to play to your personal strengths. I think Tyrion is excellent yet he has terrible mental discipline. A lot of people on your list are going to start losing "the game" very soon.

[Big P]

Ned, Tywin, and Pycelle are dead.  No chance of winning there.  Missandei is not interested but she could be a damn fine player if she chose to.  Greyworm and Barristan are more the support types. 

1 hour ago, Makk said:

How is Robb so different from Ned? I don't think you need mental discipline to win the game of thrones. Like most good games there are different ways of winning and you need to play to your personal strengths. I think Tyrion is excellent yet he has terrible mental discipline. A lot of people on your list are going to start losing "the game" very soon.

I can agree to some point but only because we know so little of Ned's childhood or younghood.  Ned could have been a thuggish young hoodlum in his early days.  Robb did fuck up royally when he followed his heart and screwed Walder Frey up the ass.  I'm guessing that's why he's not on the list and I can understand. 

[Makk]

10 minutes ago, Intel XEON said:

Ned, Tywin, and Pycelle are dead.  No chance of winning there.  Missandei is not interested but she could be a damn fine player if she chose to.  Greyworm and Barristan are more the support types. 

I can agree to some point but only because we know so little of Ned's childhood or younghood.  Ned could have been a thuggish young hoodlum in his early days.  Robb did fuck up royally when he followed his heart and screwed Walder Frey up the ass.  I'm guessing that's why he's not on the list and I can understand. 

Obviously somewhat subjective but I feel Ned fucked up in an almost identical manner. Robb didn't screw up because he loved Jeyne, he wed her because of honour, taking her virginity in a moment of weakness and not being prepared to leave it at that. Just as Ned screwed up through honour, warning Cersei to leave to save her children.

[Big P]

14 minutes ago, Makk said:

Obviously somewhat subjective but I feel Ned fucked up in an almost identical manner. Robb didn't screw up because he loved Jeyne, he wed her because of honour, taking her virginity in a moment of weakness and not being prepared to leave it at that. Just as Ned screwed up through honour, warning Cersei to leave to save her children.

Robb didn't mean to betray Walder.  That's what he told Catelyn.  But he still made the choice to marry Jeyne.  His obligation to Walder was much more important than whatever he owed Jeyne.  Robb couldn't force himself to do something he doesn't want to do.  That's poor discipline to me from someone who considered himself a king.  Robb knew he shouldn't but did anyway marry Jeyne.  Ned's situation was different.  You could say Ned was naive and made the wrong choice but he made the choice that he believed was correct.  Robb made the choice that he knew was incorrect because he wanted to marry Jeyne even when he knew he shouldn't.  It's not just Robb. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna when he knew he shouldn't.  Lyanna broke her vows when she knew she shouldn't.  I am glad the topic author didn't include them on the list.

My three most disciplined people are:  Littlefinger, Varys, and Greyworm.  Greyworm has an unfair advantage but so what.  The same can be said for Varys.  Littlefinger is weak so it's not like he had any other way to play.  If you can't swing a sword you better be patient and sneaky.