Why Cersei didn't break prophecy by getting pregnant for the fourth time?

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

Prophecy is open to interpretation, that's why they are always vague and can go any number of ways (see Nostradamus). Once out there, a prophecy will come true eventually and with the benefit of hindsight.

[Helikzhan]

14 hours ago, James Steller said:

Well she continued to sleep with Jaime long after her children were born. If she didn't get pregnant a fourth time, it wasn't for lack of trying.

 

This is correct. It wasn't for lack of trying. I imagine this is why the prophecy worried her so much. She was convinced of it when she couldn't bear any more children. This could also be why she was terrified of being married off to another lord. 

[Danelle]

6 hours ago, Tifani said:

accurate. hell why didn't she just kill tyrion after finding out about the prophecy? considering she was capable of murder from a young age since she killed melara.

Jaime wouldn't let her. Her uncles were also fond of him. With Melara it was something spotaneous and she could get away with it and claim it was an accident.

I think that she did want Tyrion dead but she waited for the right oppurtunity.

 

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She clutched his good hand and held it tight in hers. "He told me he was going to do it. Joff knew. As he was dying, he pointed at his murderer. At our twisted little monster of a brother." She kissed Jaime's fingers. "You'll kill him for me, won't you? You'll avenge our son."

Besides Cersei constantly tried to prove the prophecy wrong and disregarded Maggy's credibility.

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We let her taste our blood, and laughed at her stupid prophecies. None of them made the least bit of sense

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Maggy the Frog should have been in motley too, for all she knew about the morrow.

Besides the whole prophecy thing seems to be something that Cersei had tried to forgot, it resurfaced after Joffrey's death.

 

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 Melara said that if we never spoke about her prophecies, we would forget them. She said that a forgotten prophecy couldn't come true.

The events of SOS prompted her to recall her visit to Maggy, until then she did what Melara told her, forgot the prophecy

 

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"This maegi made certain prophecies. I laughed at them at first, but . . . she foretold the death of one of my bedmaids. At the time she made the prophecy, the girl was one-and-ten, healthy as a little horse and safe within the Rock. Yet she soon fell down a well and drowned." Melara had begged her never to speak of the things they heard that night in the maegi's tent. If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will be just a bad dream we had, Melara had said. Bad dreams never come true. The both of them had been so young, that had sounded almost wise.

And it is during the events of FFC that she tries to prevent the prophecy from happening

 

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"And you wish to forestall this prophecy?"

More than anything, she thought. "Can it be forestalled?"

 

[Raksha 2014]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

We just disagree then.  

You could have everything happen in Feast exactly as it happened and no prophecy and it would be a perfectly believable chain of events  that since she was always impulsive, arrogant, selfish, power hungry, suspicious and cruel that the stress simply made her more so and more paranoid.  She would still want to get rid of Marg and rule herself because she thinks she is Tywin Lannister only no one recognized it because the patriarchy.

I liked the prophecy as it confirmed my belief she was a sociopath.

 

A queen who has not only cuckolded her royal husband (a treasonous offense) but who committed incense to produce three children she passed off as that husband's children certainly has reason to be paranoid, considering what would happen to her and the children (and the children's father) if that secret was universally known.  And once various people, such as Ned Stark and Stannis, did learn the secret and start tearing the Seven Kingdoms apart because of it, I'm sure Cersei's paranoia started to grow.  It was already there in the beginning, when she was freaking out because little Bran Stark saw her and Jaime going at it.   Maggy's prophecy wasn't really needed to further unhinge Cersei; she was doing it to herself already; and the poor decisions she continued to make just worsened her situation.

[Cas Stark]

10 hours ago, Tifani said:

lol you've only given your reasons on why she didn't kill tyrion now. not before. don't try to backtrack this shit.although my argument for that would be that not once, like ever has cersei ever been shown to fear the curse of kinslaying. and that it only starts to pop in her head again because joffrey died is a lame excuse imo and even further proof that its a retcon. oh just how CONVENIENT that we find out there's a prophecy about cersei's kids dying right after one of them dies lol. 

also the fact that you keep repeating yourself about how cersei is a fool and x, x and x even without the prophecy is only weakening your argument that it isn't retcon by Martin, you do realize that don't you? you do realize that you're essentially just saying that Maggy's prophecy serves no purpose for Cersei's mindset or character development or story. how the fuck is it not something that Martin just pulled out of his ass then? once again i repeat, you can't wrap your head around that cersei is a fictional character and not a real person and that GRRM made some really specific writing choices for her. 

 

Um, duh?   What does that have to do with whether the prophecy is a retcon or not?  I said and continue to say that everything that happened in Feast could have happened without a prophecy because all of the elements of her demise were present in earlier books. The author has trouble discarding  a lot of his ideas once he writes them down.  I think Doran's plot is a retcon, so what?  Not everyone agrees.  It has like literally nothing to do with the characters being fictional, what a strange comment.  

[Tifani]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Um, duh?   What does that have to do with whether the prophecy is a retcon or not?  I said and continue to say that everything that happened in Feast could have happened without a prophecy because all of the elements of her demise were present in earlier books. The author has trouble discarding  a lot of his ideas once he writes them down.  I think Doran's plot is a retcon, so what?  Not everyone agrees.  It has like literally nothing to do with the characters being fictional, what a strange comment.  

Um it probably has a lot to do with the prophecy being retcon. since it ultimately is a writing device more than anything else lol. 

for the 5 fucking billionth time I agree with you that everything happened in AFFC could have happened without the prophecy. Please just get that ingrained in your head. Because that's literally all you've been vomiting, when that's not what I've been saying in the first place.

my only real point was that since cersei already had flaws to make everything in AFFC, GRRM added the prophecy after he scrapped the 5 year gap. Because you know he's a writer. And when he was probably writing his fictional character, he probably had to make his adjustments when he needed things to happen at a much faster pace. You disagree. You think it's something he's had in his mind since AGOT and that it would be something that would be included even if the 5-year gap existed. I get that. You could have just said that from the beginning instead of talking about Cersei as if she's a real person with her own agency rather than something borne out of GRRM's imagination lol.

[Cas Stark]

11 minutes ago, Tifani said:

Um it probably has a lot to do with the prophecy being retcon. since it ultimately is a writing device more than anything else lol. 

for the 5 fucking billionth time I agree with you that everything happened in AFFC could have happened without the prophecy. Please just get that ingrained in your head. Because that's literally all you've been vomiting, when that's not what I've been saying in the first place.

my only real point was that since cersei already had flaws to make everything in AFFC, GRRM added the prophecy after he scrapped the 5 year gap. Because you know he's a writer. And when he was probably writing his fictional character, he probably had to make his adjustments when he needed things to happen at a much faster pace. You disagree. You think it's something he's had in his mind since AGOT and that it would be something that would be included even if the 5-year gap existed. I get that. You could have just said that from the beginning instead of talking about Cersei as if she's a real person with her own agency rather than something borne out of GRRM's imagination lol.

If everything that happened in Feast could have happened w/out the prophecy--which you now say you agree with--then would be no reason to retcon in a prophecy in the first place.  That's my whole point.  It's just something random that GRRM thought up and included it for whatever reason......he wrote it,  he liked the imagery, he wanted to make a comment on self fulfilling prophecies, he thought it would make her more sympathetic.

I have no idea when he thought it up or why he included it.  I agree with some of the criticism that it flattens Cersei's story, but personally I like it. 

[Tifani]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If everything that happened in Feast could have happened w/out the prophecy....then there is no reason it has to be included as a retcon.  That's my whole point.  It's just something random that GRRM thought up and included it for whatever reason, he wrote it,  he liked the imagery, he wanted to make a comment on self fulfilling prophecies, he thought it would make her my sympathetic.

I have no idea when he thought it up or why he included it.  I agree with some of the criticism that it flattens Cersei's story, but personally I like it. 

See the fact that everything that happened in AFFC COULD happen without it is precisely the exact reason why I think it's a retcon lol.

I honestly think it's something that GRRM added for himself more than anything else to make his writing easier for himself when he scrapped the 5-year gap.  

I don't personally hate it myself. I think it's very Shakespearean. But I do think it made her a more static character. That's just a matter of opinion though. And I still enjoy Cersei even if she's not as 3D or complex as some of the other POV characters so whatever.

[PsammeadSand]

On 04/05/2017 at 4:13 PM, Cas Stark said:

Better question is if she had not aborted Robert's child she would have ended the prophecy then and there.

This is a good point. Though Cersei is so single minded in the pursuit of what she wants, logical thinking goes out of the window. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On Invalid Date at 10:47 AM, Brandon Baratheon said:

Tywin suggested to betrothal Cersei many times but she refused. I don't understand why she didn't try to have more than three children to break Maggy's prophecy or why she didn't stop after having Myrcella.

Because Cercei is Cercei . She could have broken prophecy by giving Robert one child but she would not do that . From What we have learned from the books Robert is whining because Cercei is not giving him any , Cercei has not only not let Robert inside of her in years and that what they do to pleasure him , he is too drunk to remember and also that she is sleeping with her brother and to top it off Mace Tyrell and Renly intends to introduce Robert to Margaery so that he would wed her and bed her. After the year 291 Robert and Cercei didn't have any relations , Robert is either drunk ,hunting or at a brothel so anytime Jaime got her pregnant she had to drink moontea  .

[Tianzi]

28 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Because Cercei is Cercei . She could have broken prophecy by giving Robert one child but she would not do that . From What we have learned from the books Robert is whining because Cercei is not giving him any , Cercei has not only not let Robert inside of her in years and that what they do to pleasure him , he is too drunk to remember and also that she is sleeping with her brother and to top it off Mace Tyrell and Renly intends to introduce Robert to Margaery so that he would wed her and bed her. After the year 291 Robert and Cercei didn't have any relations , Robert is either drunk ,hunting or at a brothel so anytime Jaime got her pregnant she had to drink moontea  .

Cersei remembers Robert occasionally drunkenly raping her and remembering it the morning after (and claiming 'it was wine'), and I don't think we got the last date of that at 291.

Also it's not that hard to see why she despised the thought of having Robert's children, at least until she came to treat the prophecy deadly seriously (and Robert was dead by that time).

[HoodedCrow]

I don't know if the prophesy is a retcon or not. 

However, there are other reasons to put it there.

1. We are suposed to think Cersei is malevolent, with an early, crazy history.

2. Her obsession with Jaime has a bad history on her part, that is not just casual.

3. Robert has sown a lot more seeds than we are shown. (Because we know her three is true) Ned is supposed to figure some of this out, having no DNA tests.

4. We are supposed to think this world has functional magic, and is not a sham. We can think the prophesies have some merit, because of some accuracy.

5. Yes, so we see where Cersei gets messed up, maybe more self fulfilling as time passes.

6. Martin messes with us by giving prophesy more than mumbo jumbo status, and he may make us look at the other ones. 

7. Now we want to know who the valonquer is, and who has a crown and what that means, or why the fires are lit, and how it snows down!

But, hey, I can't say for sure:)

 

 

[Anck Su Namun]

On 5/4/2017 at 10:47 AM, Brandon Baratheon said:

Tywin suggested to betrothal Cersei many times but she refused. I don't understand why she didn't try to have more than three children to break Maggy's prophecy or why she didn't stop after having Myrcella.

Because she's not logical.  Why wait so long to make an attempt on the valonqar' life until Stannis attacked the city?  Why not make an accident for the imp while he was young and easier to kill?  Plot hole.  Logic hole in Cersei's reasoning.  Cersei felt secure enough to ignore the prophecy.  Take your pick.

[HoodedCrow]

Cersei is not entirely rational, or a great judge of character. But even in Westeros, she might not feel so certain about how a prophecy would turn out. Family planning because of the say so of a wood witch might be beyond her. There is a hindsight element, like, say, in elections:) We know more than she does as readers, and then add plot reasons to that.

 

 

[Daeronstarkaryen]

On 5/4/2017 at 11:37 AM, CornishDornish said:

Because she's a moron

I second this lol 

[HoodedCrow]

That's a great question for George Martin. All the bad things that happen to Cersei are because she is a simple Low IQ moron. That is her singular character trait. She really should have mapped her life to heard off a witches prophecy.

She does outfox Ned, Robert, Sansa, Jaime, Lancel, and Tywin, but hey, the bar is not high.

[devilish]

17 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

That's a great question for George Martin. All the bad things that happen to Cersei are because she is a simple Low IQ moron. That is her singular character trait. She really should have mapped her life to heard off a witches prophecy.

She does outfox Ned, Robert, Sansa, Jaime, Lancel, and Tywin, but hey, the bar is not high.

I don't think she really outfoxed anybody tbh. Think about it. If she actually had children from Robert rather then from her brother then none of these horrible things would have happened. Tywin would still be warden of the west, with a loyal heir waiting to take over once the old man kicks the bucket. In Ned she would have found a loyal ally whose willing to go to war against anybody for his friend and offspring and the Baratheon dynasty would have prospered beyond measures. Cersei ruined both her family and her adoptive family, making it easy for the Targs to seek their revenge over her and her family. That's not a victory. 

[Byfort of Corfe]

47 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

That's a great question for George Martin. All the bad things that happen to Cersei are because she is a simple Low IQ moron. That is her singular character trait. She really should have mapped her life to heard off a witches prophecy.

She does outfox Ned, Robert, Sansa, Jaime, Lancel, and Tywin, but hey, the bar is not high.

Well prophecy is prophecy.  There is a great story told by Merlyn in the book "Once and Future King" about a man who happens to see death walking in the streets of his town.  Death looks right at him with a surprised look on his face.  The man is certain that Death has come for him, he slips away through the crowd, mounts a horse and rides all night to get to another town.  The next morning he feels safe until he feels a tap on his shoulder, he turns and it is Death, right in front of him.  The man tells Death, "But I saw you yesterday, miles away".  Death responds, "Yes, that was why I was surprised, I knew that I was supposed to find you here, today". 

[HoodedCrow]

I don't think we are meant to reduce Cersei's character as merely having low intelligence.

She managed to trick Robert...a lot. She talks her lover into ultimately getting Robert killed. She outmanouveres Ned and uses some good arguments about power. She talks Jaime into joining the Kingsguard, and succeeds in making that happen. She tricks a star struck child, Sansa...okay it wasn't the most difficult task. She hides things from Tywin. She hides things under torture. She outmanouvers Tyrion.

She is very unwise, ruthless, ethically challenged, paranoid, and inconsistent. She has huge blind spots. Perhaps she is more like Aerys.

Byfort has a great point about prophecy. The Trojan war was a story loaded with omens and soothsaying which is easy to understand after the author reveals all. We are not meant to think that the Trojans were just dumb. Still, Paris should have given the Apple to Athena or Hera, but he screwed it all up, because of his weakness for female beauty! And Achilles really should have had better ankle armor.

[Cas Stark]

Cersei's issue isn't intelligence, but judgement.  She is intelligent, but her impulsiveness, jealousies, hates and fears all cloud her judgment and cause her to make poor and rash decisions.