The Great Unwashed

U.S. Politics: Living on a Prayer edition

394 posts in this topic

Because that's what a fuck-ton of Americans will be reduced to if this thing passes.

Please continue.

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Remember how folks last month were saying that the death of the AHCA was a sign that democracy is awesome and that my ideas of autocracy were silly?

Remember how I pointed out that Democracy didn't do shit, and the only reason it lost was because Republicans happened to be kind of incompetent?

Well, here ya go. We have a bill that manages to be even more cruel than the previous one, less effective, and Republicans are voting for it and democracy does shit against it. And I'll even bet a shiny nickel that Manchin will vote for it in the Senate.

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Kalbear,

I don't want to see this pass either.  What is your point about democracy?

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1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

When you have highly partisan hysterical people on both sides of a debate the truth usually is somewhere in the middle.

https://youtu.be/TnSEFaurDDY?t=109

Might as well be the tagline for CNN.

 

The middle is yawning gap -- oft times between falsehoods and data.

e.g. racial/religious discrimination/bias as perceived by:

  • the Right (false - i.e. Abby Fisher (AA) / Kim Davis (Poor persecuted Christian ) 
  • the Left (data supported - overwrought at times, but consider the subject -- i.e. Jordan Edwards - 15-yo murdered in Texas this week)

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C'mon, it's getting a little thick in here. The Republicans are rushing a vote through because a CBO score would have terrible optics for them. Is your argument really going to be that, because the CBO wasn't bang-on with it's score for the ACA, then Republicans are justified in saying "fuck it, we don't need a CBO score"?

If that were my argument, I would have said so.  Since I did not say that, you can safely assume that is not my argument.

 

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9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Remember how folks last month were saying that the death of the AHCA was a sign that democracy is awesome and that my ideas of autocracy were silly?

Remember how I pointed out that Democracy didn't do shit, and the only reason it lost was because Republicans happened to be kind of incompetent?

Well, here ya go. We have a bill that manages to be even more cruel than the previous one, less effective, and Republicans are voting for it and democracy does shit against it. And I'll even bet a shiny nickel that Manchin will vote for it in the Senate.

 The sky hasn't fallen just yet there, Chicken Little. Let's give these incompetents a chance to fuck it up again. I have faith in them.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Kalbear,

I don't want to see this pass either.  What is your point about democracy?

My point is that the US democratic system didn't stop the bill from passing before, and it isn't helping the bill pass now. People were taking the AHCA's prior demise as proof that the system is okay and that we might be able to make it through this; I pointed out that this had nothing to do with checks and balances or democracy stifling anything, and that we're not out of the woods yet.

And heck, even I didn't anticipate that the Republican strategy that would pay off would be to simply cave entirely to the Freedom Caucus and the moderates would fall in line.

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2 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

If that were my argument, I would have said so.  Since I did not say that, you can safely assume that is not my argument.

How about you safely present your fucking argument then? You have downplayed the lack of CBO issue multiple times. If you don't want us to make assumptions, you might consider clarifying your positions.

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Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 The sky hasn't fallen just yet there, Chicken Little. Let's give these incompetents a chance to fuck it up again. I have faith in them.

In honor of Star Wars day, I'll paraphrase: your overconfidence in their incompetence is your weakness.

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My point is that the US democratic system didn't stop the bill from passing before, and it isn't helping the bill pass now. People were taking the AHCA's prior demise as proof that the system is okay and that we might be able to make it through this; I pointed out that this had nothing to do with checks and balances or democracy stifling anything, and that we're not out of the woods yet.

And heck, even I didn't anticipate that the Republican strategy that would pay off would be to simply cave entirely to the Freedom Caucus and the moderates would fall in line.

Democracy isn't a guarantee you will not see shitty legislation pass.  It never has been.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

How about you safely present your fucking argument then? You have downplayed the lack of CBO issue multiple times. If you don't want us to make assumptions, you might consider clarifying your positions.

I have presented it.  We should not rely too heavily on the CBO estimates as if they are likely to be accurate.  

They aren't.

I'm surprised you couldn't puzzle that out.

Edited by Swordfish

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Democracy isn't a guarantee you will not see shitty legislation pass.  It never has been.

The level of shitty legislation that is currently passing, however, is a high water mark today. To whit: there was zero debate on the floor about it, there was no markup session, there was no CBO score, many congresspeople (including almost all the Democrats) have not read it, there were amendments as of yesterday, and it is a bill that affects 1/6th of the economy. 

You gotta admit, this is something of a new low. 

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I have presented it.  We should not rely too heavily on the CBO estimates as if they are likely to be accurate.  

They aren't.

That's an arguable point, as others have some instances where the CBO was bang on. 

In any case, when legislators attempt to ram something through with no CBO report, do you find that to be at all shady? I think that's the primary point. They know it's shit. They know it will not receive a favorable CBO report. So they simply bypass it. 

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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Just now, Kalbear said:

The level of shitty legislation that is currently passing, however, is a high water mark today. To whit: there was zero debate on the floor about it, there was no markup session, there was no CBO score, many congresspeople (including almost all the Democrats) have not read it, there were amendments as of yesterday, and it is a bill that affects 1/6th of the economy. 

You gotta admit, this is something of a new low. 

This is pretty much exactly the argument I was making against the ACA when it was being debated.  That putting that large a chunk of the economy in the hands of the dipshits in washington should terrify the shit out of us.

I guess we really are a special snowflake after all.

 

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Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's an arguable point, as others have some instances where the CBO was bang on. 

In any case, when legislators attempt to ram something through with no CBO report, do you find that to be at all shady?

I do.

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Swordfish is also presumably fine with there being zero debate, zero markup, and the bill not being presented to the public for 3 days. 

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WTF?!?!?!?!?

Quote

Under the House bill, large employers could choose the benefit requirements from any state—including those that are allowed to lower their benchmarks under a waiver, health analysts said. By choosing a waiver state, employers looking to lower their costs could impose lifetime limits and eliminate the out-of-pocket cost cap from their plans under the GOP legislation.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/05/04/the_republican_health_bill_might_ruin_employer_based_coverage_too.html

 

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The level of shitty legislation that is currently passing, however, is a high water mark today. To whit: there was zero debate on the floor about it, there was no markup session, there was no CBO score, many congresspeople (including almost all the Democrats) have not read it, there were amendments as of yesterday, and it is a bill that affects 1/6th of the economy. 

You gotta admit, this is something of a new low. 

Sounds almost exactly like the original passage of ACA, except there was a wildly inaccurate CBO estimate, among many other wildly inaccurate predictions.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

Sounds almost exactly like the original passage of ACA, except there was a wildly inaccurate CBO estimate, among many other wildly inaccurate predictions.

Not even remotely close. The ACA went through markup 18 times. It went through debate for 10 months. The text of the bill was available to all for almost a full year.

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