About the time gap between the books.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

[Makk]

Although frustrating I actually think I appreciate the amazing depth of the books more after having read around 5 different theories (and having re-read the books all at least 5 times). If the books came out every year, I wouldn't have bothered to read those theories and it's possible the writers never would have written them.

Having said that I think we are passed the point where I feel the theories or insights are compelling. Every now and again someone raises an intriguing possibility, but nothing has felt significantly compelling for some time. I just want the next book to come out.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

18 minutes ago, Makk said:

Having said that I think we are passed the point where I feel the theories or insights are compelling. Every now and again someone raises an intriguing possibility, but nothing has felt significantly compelling for some time. I just want the next book to come out.

This. The best theories are already done, everytime someone try something new they simply write a fan-fiction relating non-book stuff with the book. Like nordic mythlogy, other books that Martin liked as a kid, etc.

[Praetor Xyn]

It's hard not to relate non book stuff that GRRM reuses over and over throughout multiple works, 

Spoiler

like races / groups with hive-mind blended consciousness sending visions tp humans to trick them into killing each other.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

7 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

It's hard not to relate non book stuff that GRRM reuses over and over throughout multiple works, 

 

I feel you, but even so. We have to read the books, make some cool theories about it (with text supporting the claim) and just that. I've seen people making freaking long essays comparing the trees at the Asoiaf universe. People "explaining" the astrological part of the universe, etc.

[Tianzi]

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

One big: the show has caught up to the books.

Also, everything was chewed over and over again on forums, so whatever plot tricks Martin still has in his sleeve, we'll not be very surprised because we've read it here.

Sigh. And Jaime being the valonquar or the Hound being the gravedigger could have been such nice twists...

[Ser Loras The Gay]

5 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Sigh. And Jaime being the valonquar or the Hound being the gravedigger could have been such nice twists...

Yeah.............. Every single way that Martin could write his story was already mentioned at some point here in the forum. It's a shame but it's the price Martin payed for taking this long to make his books.

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

You pose an interesting question but it's not an easy one to answer.  I joined this community in 2011 and there was plenty of good dialogue and quite a few very compelling theories being proposed by some very articulate posters at the time.  A Dance With Dragons was still pretty fresh and people were busy connecting the dots between what they had read in the previous four books with the new content presented in book five. I fondly remember many "Wow!  I never noticed that!" posts and theories.  But most of my favourite insightful posters have long since stopped participating in this forum and now we mostly get people posting theories based on tenuously connected observations and words.  Fans these days have almost too much information available to them at their fingertips and it allows them to use internet searches to bolster almost any notion or thinly stretched connection into a "theory".  High Sparrow = Howland Reed?  Sure, I guess.  Children of the Forest  connected to Flea Bottom because one of the CotF is named Leaf and leaf shares the same letters as flea?  I guess so, but probably not.  The sword Dawn used to be a sword wielded by the Others?  Not likely but lets have a verbose go at it. 

If you disagree with one of these theories all you have to do is read a 20,000 word introduction to the theory and then read multiple 5,000 word supporting posts before you even think about replying.   But, of course, you don't have to reply to those posts and threads.  There's always something else to read and participate in.  Catelyn Stark was mean to Jon Snow?  Plenty of material there.  Stannis Baratheon is cool and awesome?  Dozens of threads on that one.  Sansa sucks?  Too many posts and threads to count.  Sansa is awesome?  Same.  A Feast for Crows is boring and doesn't include enough car chases and explosions?  Plenty to go around there as well.

So, yeah!  The years required to wait for the books have caused some of GRRM's fandom to go a little overboard with theories and speculation but it isn't that much of a deal because the theories and speculations presented here on this forum are NOT THE BOOKS.  I am in the camp of GRRM fans that believe he can take as much time as he needs to or wants to before publishing the next books and I'm willing to accept the possibility of him not finishing.  But personal experience has taught me that I am probably in the minority on that score.  I'm OK with that too.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

10 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

So, yeah!  The years required to wait for the books have caused some of GRRM's fandom to go a little overboard with theories and speculation but it isn't that much of a deal because the theories and speculations presented here on this forum are NOT THE BOOKS.  I am in the camp of GRRM fans that believe he can take as much time as he needs to or wants to before publishing the next books and I'm willing to accept the possibility of him not finishing.  But personal experience has taught me that I am probably in the minority on that score.  I'm OK with that too.

I loved your reply. So calm, and polite. I wish I could be like you, when I read a theory that is just too far fetched I simply get mad. People need to read the books and discuss what is in the books (IMO). But you're right. What they're writing isn't the books. And Martin needs the time to write. He has a super complex story and any flaw in his writing would mean chaos and armageddon to the fandom. Thank you for replying

 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

I think the whole over theorizing fad came about when the fans discovered a really well foreshadowed legit theory (R+L=J). Since this was discovered early by the fandom and all the pieces fit so well together, it made everyone want more. "There must be more!!" I think all the wild over the top analyzes all stems from the discovery of perhaps the mystery in the series.

Don't get me wrong. Some legit theories are out there (Hound=gravedigger). But I see a lot of blind stabbing. It's fun and I do not look down on any of it, but it has gotten out of hand. Everyone that is slightly mysterious must have a secret identity that is key to the entire story. I think we've put a lot of pressure on GRRM.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

While the time gap was big I think GRRM compounded the problem by agreeing to the HBO show. Add those two together and things started to get out of hand especially with youtuber videos.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On one hand, yes, the damage is immense, the insane tinfoil theories, questioning every single fact, every single sentence, every damn comma in the text - blech! On another hand, had GRRM finished the series in a timely fashion, we wouldn't be still discussing it in 2017. So I'd say the time gap has kept the community alive - but at a horrible price.

Huh. Here's a happy thought. The gap is like the nine rings for Mortal Men, doomed to die.

[Thoth11]

I think it has been an issue to many fans, but not all of them.

Personally, I am in the camp that he should take as much time as he needs to create something that is memorable and stimulating to read, not something ham fisted together to satiate the fans.

I am also not one who truly connects the books with the show, at least after season 1. The show is one "reality" and the books are another. Just like the JJ Verse Star Trek is not the Classic Star Trek universe.

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

12 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

None.  The time gap benefitted the serious book readers.  It is time to question those theories that the earlier fans have taken as gospel.  For example, the belief that the white walkers are out to get the humans needs to be re-examined. 

[The hairy bear]

I loved your post, @White Ravens

I agree that the long lapses between books are a problem for the community, since it leaves you with either repeat the same topics at nausea, discuss about trivial issues, or engage in crackpot theories. Many people get tired of that and leave the forums, others stay here but do not have the books fresh in their minds.

But honestly, I think that most of the problems you are mentioning are not due to the time between books, but for the huge increase of members in the forums. I joined them just after ASOS had been published, and there were perhaps a four or five new topics a day. A year after the books release, new interesting theories were still being shared. Now, a month after the release of ADWD, basically anything of significance had been covered.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

19 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

But honestly, I think that most of the problems you are mentioning are not due to the time between books, but for the huge increase of members in the forums. I joined them just after ASOS had been published, and there were perhaps a four or five new topics a day. A year after the books release, new interesting theories were still being shared. Now, a month after the release of ADWD, basically anything of significance had been covered.

I don't know man. Sometimes I enjoy the fact we have more members, because now we have more people's opinion about the stuff we love. But the problem is quality of those opinions, crackpot theories are fun to laugh at, but when someone take them srsly it's a problem because the fun debate becomes discussion and confusion and people at this state are not concerned about being polite. Like on thread about the Aegon Blackfyre theory where people started insulting each other because of it.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

It depends on whether or not you think everything has already been figured out by someone else years ago.  Whether or not you let someone else do your thinking for you; whether or not you accept someone else's assumptions.

For example; when Dany goes to the House of Undying she is greeted as:

mother of Dragons .... child of three

mother of dragons .... daughter of death

mother of dragons .... slayer of lies

mother of dragons .... bride of fire

The dragon has three heads...

She doesn't understand much of what the Undying tell her, but believes everything is about her and because she believes that, so does the reader. But that's an assumption.

Dany is certainly the mother of dragons; but since Drogon goes with her.  Isn't he a child of three?  Doesn't that also make sense?  If this is true, then what of the daughter of death, slayer of lies and bride of fire.  Are these the three heads of the dragon? So rather than assuming that this is about Dany and the three heads are dragon riders; could they be guides as Aemon suggests.  Who is advising Dany that might fit those descriptions:  Missendei, Quaithe and eventually Tyrion? 

 

[White Ravens]

11 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I loved your reply. So calm, and polite. I wish I could be like you, when I read a theory that is just too far fetched I simply get mad. People need to read the books and discuss what is in the books (IMO). But you're right. What they're writing isn't the books. And Martin needs the time to write. He has a super complex story and any flaw in his writing would mean chaos and armageddon to the fandom. Thank you for replying

 

 

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I loved your post, @White Ravens

I agree that the long lapses between books are a problem for the community, since it leaves you with either repeat the same topics at nausea, discuss about trivial issues, or engage in crackpot theories. Many people get tired of that and leave the forums, others stay here but do not have the books fresh in their minds.

But honestly, I think that most of the problems you are mentioning are not due to the time between books, but for the huge increase of members in the forums. I joined them just after ASOS had been published, and there were perhaps a four or five new topics a day. A year after the books release, new interesting theories were still being shared. Now, a month after the release of ADWD, basically anything of significance had been covered.

Thanks for the warm responses to my post.

I agree that the sheer volume of posters on this forum helps feed runaway crackpottery.  The popularity of the TV caused a big increase in membership and participation here.  Another thing that influenced the ease with which someone can crack a pot has also increased with the advent of digital media.  Kindle and e-readers along with websites such as A Search of Ice and Fire have made it very easy to search the entire library of books for words and phrases.  Prior to the popularity of those technologies a pot had to be cracked by flipping through the pages of the books. 

[rotting sea cow]

15 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

How much damage was done to the community due to the time gap between the books? I've seen too much overthinking in simple sentences and an urge to find foreshadowing in every single sentence. What do you guys think? The time gap was a good thing? A bad thing? Neutral?

I don't think it has been too bad. Of course we get frenetic at times due to the long wait, but on the other hand it gives us time to analyze the books in detail and find all hidden treasures in there. This forum is a good example of this.

Some people get at times paranoid and suspect of every word, but I think the problem is with the people not with the books. If people try to read the community (there are good posters here and good bloggers out there), they shouldn't get into the any demential crackpottery.

There are many things we can do with the current information, like expanding the world building, extrapolating know rules to new situations, understanding symbolism and its sources, etc.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I don't know man. Sometimes I enjoy the fact we have more members, because now we have more people's opinion about the stuff we love. But the problem is quality of those opinions, crackpot theories are fun to laugh at, but when someone take them srsly it's a problem because the fun debate becomes discussion and confusion and people at this state are not concerned about being polite. Like on thread about the Aegon Blackfyre theory where people started insulting each other because of it.

I'm not in the habit of judging or laughing at other people regardless of their opinion or ideas and how well they express them.  I stick with what I find interesting and with posters who are open-minded and polite.    Bully trolls get cement shoes and the trunk monkey treatment.  That's what the ignore button is for.