Lollygag

All of the Damned Incest: What's the Point?

313 posts in this topic

What does it do for the story?

Well for one it shows how messed up the humans are and as others have pointed out incest was a major issue with a lot of royal families for generations. Great post @The Fattest Leech omg those portraits!!!

It also adds to the crapsack world ASOIAF generally is, I mean think about, the aggressive policing of sexuality amongst nobility is pretty shitty. Which again is something that effected the real world and still does to a certain extent arranged marriages for instance. People couldn't marry for love in those days and if you had to marry someone who was related to the family for money or political reasons you didn't really have much say against it.

And yes love triangles and unrequited love does feature heavily in a lot of GRRMS work especially ASOIAF.
 

 

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9 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

If you consider it a waste of time, then by all means stop reading it.  I would submit that since you are, in fact, spending your free time on a forum dedicated to the series, you probably don't consider it a waste of time.

I disagree with your notion that it's increasingly accepted. I challenge you to find a culture, outside of small tribes in underdeveloped countries, that promotes or tolerates incest.  It's illegal in most countries and viewed as abhorred across the world.  I don't know where you get the idea that it's becoming accepted in culture.

I called you asinine because I believe, and granted this is my personal opinion and view, that part of maturity is being able to accept the existence of things with which I disagree, and look past them.  Running from things that makes you uncomfortable is the response of a child.  The classic , "if I don't see it, it doesn't exist."  Why not simply look past the few references to incest, appreciate them as furthering the plot not celebrating the act, and allowing yourself to relax and enjoy an enthralling series? 

I've started doing re-reads again recently, and the incest is really standing out more this time around. So yes, I may stop reading if I don't find another way to look at it. I'm hoping I do find it.

As for its acceptance, another poster noticed that it's huge on PornHub. The level of squeamishness surrounding incest seems to be decreasing - hostility towards it is more muted these days.  I'm seeing it become a more common subject matter in the entertainment industry. Crimson Peak and Taboo stand out, but there have been others that I'll have to look up. I don't recall incest being a thing at all in mainstream entertainment until very recently. No,it's not been legalized and there's no movement promoting it, but that's not to say the undercurrent of public opinion in general is most definitely changing.

I'm not running from the subject of incest because I find it uncomfortable, I just have a big problem with it when I don't see a substantive purpose for it. I have no problem with Jaime/Cersei incest because there are reasons for it, and it has contributed to their characters and the plot in general. I wouldn't change a thing there. I don't see most of the incest references as furthering the plot at all, hence why I was asking for input as to what that contribution might be.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The risk certainly is higher, but it is dependent on the gene material the parents actually have. It might actually be lower if you compare some incest couple with 'good genes' to a couple who are carrying genes that will greatly increase the a child from that union will be born sick. On average the risk certainly is higher than it is if the parents of a child are no related. But even the higher risk does not justify that society actually punishes incestuous sex. Guaranteeing the birth of healthy children is usually not a very high priority of the state. Nobody incarcerates women who drink, smoke, or do other drugs during a pregnancy.

Most people suffering from genetic disease today are not children of incestuous unions. In that sense laws against incest essentially help no one. If you want to eradicate genetic diseases you would have establish some eugenic laws based on biological research. But that would mean that people will no longer be allowed to conceive children with the people they want to. A better way still would be that biological and medical research is going to enable us in the foreseeable future to rid us of those kind of diseases by way of new treatments. Then genetic diseases itself might become a thing of the past, and the incest taboo would be even more irrelevant.

 

Come on, children touch each other. That is natural. I did not talk or imagine ten-year-olds trying out anal sex. Just pointing out that the place where you first explore and are confronted with your own as well as other people's sexuality is your family. You might watch your parents or a sibling of yours having sex with a girlfriend or boyfriend, you might sleep abed in the same room with a sibling and masturbate (or witness him or her masturbating), you may ask an elder sibling questions about their sex life, etc. You might even try out how it feels to touch each other in certain places. This doesn't make you weird or anything.

.

 

First point: I think you misunderstand.  The biggest problem with incest, and also with your suggestion of genetically eliminating diseases, is that when people's genetic code is too similar, you're inviting a mass extinction event caused by something as innocuous as a flu.  The reason Humans were able to survive things like the bubonic plague is because our genetic make up is varied enough that some of us developed immunities.  The more genetically alike a society gets the easier it is for a disease to wipe every one out.  That's why incest is so dangerous, not to mention the higher instances of genetic diseases.

Second point:  This is an unfair statement.  Yes most people with genetic diseases are not products of incest, but that's because there are so few products of incest out there.  It's not a fair comparison.   I could make the same point that most children with genetic defects are not products of bestiality, therefore bestiality isn't as bad as people suggest.  The flaw in that way of thinking is that you aren't comparing two groups of similar sizes, you're comparing a group of 99.9% and a group of .1%.  So naturally the group with 99.9% will make up the majority of cases. The more prudent thing to look at is the percentage of disease amongst the subgroup.  Children who are products of incest have a higher rate of disease, that's why it's dangerous.  There is a smaller sum of them, but a higher relative percentage, understand?

Third point: I still disagree.  Perhaps we simply won't agree on this point, but I think your assessment of how often this takes place is alarming.  I grew up with a sister who is, objectively, a pretty girl.  Never once did that stir anything in me, because she's my sister.  That notion is so deeply embedded in people that regardless of looks the body physiologically will reject the idea.  I truly do  not believe that children sexually experiment, or think about their siblings while discovering themselves. 

Edited by spauldo17

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1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

 

To your second bolded statement, I'm not sure in what type of household you were raised, but if you think it's common for siblings to experiment sexually with each other, you're delusional.  In almost every developed society in the world incest is a negative, and illegal.  And it's made very clear to siblings at a young age.  The reason people don't talk about it is because it doesn't happen, not because it's our dirty little secret.  If you're making this comment to try and normalize your own experiences, I apologize for being harsh.  But it simply isn't true.

Totally agree. I grew up with 6 brothers and sisters (7 kids total), and for much of my childhood, I lived directly next to my three cousins, and we were all of the same age range. In my household, we only had a three bedroom house that had to sleep 9 of us. I used to end up sleeping at my cousins house often because of #1, being close to them, and #2 space reasons in my house (and they always had donuts!!!!). Never, not once did any of use touch or "experiment" with each other, even in a cramped living situation. Even when we found my uncles porny mags under the mattress :lol: We just laughed at them and put them away just as we found them so we wouldn't be caught and get in trouble for looking at porn.

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've started doing re-reads again recently, and the incest is really standing out more this time around. So yes, I may stop reading if I don't find another way to look at it. I'm hoping I do find it.

As for its acceptance, another poster noticed that it's huge on PornHub. The level of squeamishness surrounding incest seems to be decreasing - hostility towards it is more muted these days.  I'm seeing it become a more common subject matter in the entertainment industry. Crimson Peak and Taboo stand out, but there have been others that I'll have to look up. I don't recall incest being a thing at all in mainstream entertainment until very recently. No,it's not been legalized and there's no movement promoting it, but that's not to say the undercurrent of public opinion in general is most definitely changing.

I'm not running from the subject of incest because I find it uncomfortable, I just have a big problem with it when I don't see a substantive purpose for it. I have no problem with Jaime/Cersei incest because there are reasons for it, and it has contributed to their characters and the plot in general. I wouldn't change a thing there. I don't see most of the incest references as furthering the plot at all, hence why I was asking for input as to what that contribution might be.

The fact that you're pointing to pornhub as your representation of "society" says a lot.  Know what else is a category in pornhub?  Goat porn.   Midget Porn. Shoving things up places they shouldn't go.  Sexual fetishes are varied, and do not represent a change in the tide of the way people think.

You point out Game of Thrones, and also Taboo as shows that have incest.  I've not seen crimson peak so I'll not talk about it.  But the other two are both based in different times, times in which incest was more accepted.  Therefore for these shows to accurately represent the time period incest plays a role.

Lastly, as I've said, the purpose of the lanisters is clear, the purpose of incest with the targaryens is also clear.  As I've explained it serves to highlight the "mad" nature of the targaryens, and the "purity" of their blood line.

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Totally agree. I grew up with 6 brothers and sisters (7 kids total), and for much of my childhood, I lived directly next to my three cousins, and we were all of the same age range. In my household, we only had a three bedroom house that had to sleep 9 of us. I used to end up sleeping at my cousins house often because of #1, being close to them, and #2 space reasons in my house (and they always had donuts!!!!). Never, not once did any of use touch or "experiment" with each other, even in a cramped living situation. Even when we found my uncles porny mags under the mattress :lol: We just laughed at them and put them away just as we found them so we wouldn't be caught and get in trouble for looking at porn.

Exactly.  I'm not sure where the notion that it's a common thing comes from, but it certainly isn't.  But I respect your resolve in having so many siblings and not experimenting with them.  The struggle must have been real :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

You point out Game of Thrones, and also Taboo as shows that have incest.  I've not seen crimson peak so I'll not talk about it.  But the other two are both based in different times, times in which incest was more accepted.  Therefore for these shows to accurately represent the time period incest plays a role.

Very little fiction and television based in that time has actual incest in it, nor does it have any incest overtones. I can't think of any at all which isn't very recent. It's becoming a more common subject matter.

I'm not familiar with PornHub, but I'm assuming goat porn isn't a popular fetish. Midgets are hugely popular right now btw, not just in porn. The point is the popularity and that it's not a niche fetish. I quit watching Taboo, but in Crimson Peak, the incest was negative and shocking to the other characters. It wasn't "accepted".

Just because something is based in the past doesn't mean it has to address all elements of the past. Incest has largely been excluded from fiction, tv, and movies. So what's up with the choice to start using it now when it wasn't before?

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Very little fiction and television based in that time has actual incest in it, nor does it have any incest overtones. I can't think of any at all which isn't very recent. It's becoming a more common subject matter.

I'm not familiar with PornHub, but I'm assuming goat porn isn't a popular fetish. Midgets are hugely popular right now btw, not just in porn. The point is the popularity and that it's not a niche fetish. I quit watching Taboo, but in Crimson Peak, the incest was negative and shocking to the other characters. It wasn't "accepted".

Just because something is based in the past doesn't mean it has to address all elements of the past. Incest has largely been excluded from fiction, tv, and movies. So what's up with the choice to start using it now when it wasn't before?

The fact that you can't think of any shows that deal with incest does not mean there are none.  If you are a writer or director who wants to remain true to the time period, and represent what life was actually like, it is their prerogative to include. We shouldn't fault them for being more realistic.

The fact that MOST people do not look up incest related porn means it is, in fact, a niche fetish.  That's literally the definition. The fact that incest was depicted as negative in crimson peak further support my point.  It's not becoming more accepted, people are simply willing to let it play a role in their stories. 

If something is based in a time period, in order to make it as realistic as possible, you should include the things that were common during that time period.  Vikings shows brutal warfare and torture because it was appropriate to that time.  Game of Thrones also has brothels play a prominent role because in that time period brothels were very popular.  Any TV show or movie that wishes to accurately depict a time period, which should be the goal in writing a show or movie, will include any element that played a role.  In this case it serves to further the plot. 

Edited by spauldo17

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Very little fiction and television based in that time has actual incest in it, nor does it have any incest overtones. I can't think of any at all which isn't very recent. It's becoming a more common subject matter.

I'm not familiar with PornHub, but I'm assuming goat porn isn't a popular fetish. Midgets are hugely popular right now btw, not just in porn. The point is the popularity and that it's not a niche fetish. I quit watching Taboo, but in Crimson Peak, the incest was negative and shocking to the other characters. It wasn't "accepted".

Just because something is based in the past doesn't mean it has to address all elements of the past. Incest has largely been excluded from fiction, tv, and movies. So what's up with the choice to start using it now when it wasn't before?

The mass acceptance of the abomination show version of this story seems to have sensationalized many knock-off type stories that exist because there is a time slot to fill (that may or may not be a euphemism) and tits and dragons and everyone dies is a trend. Copying someone is supposed to be the sincerest form of flattery, but I don't always agree because often the first is the best because it is more thought out and intended, including consequences. But that is just one thought on this.

Anyone remember the show Bastard Executioner? That is a good example of how knock-off's don't always work, even though it to tried to emulate the same themes.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Always with the bad spelling, I am.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with incest. The risk of inherited diseases only increases when you carry the necessary genes already (which is the reason why not closely related parents can also produce children who would be better off had their parents never met each other). If we really cared about preventing the conception of children with genetic diseases we would demand that any couple who want to have children go test their genes before they have sex. But we don't do that nor do we feel the need to demand that such laws be implemented.

But we should, of course, educate people and inform that it is not exactly a great idea to conceive a child with your brother if a lot of your ancestors already were cousins or if genetic disease are prevalent among your relations. In our day and age we actually have the technology to do that and any couple actually caring about the health of their offspring should actually try to find out how high the risk is that they children inherit a genetic disease.

In that sense it should be perfectly fine in our days and age if consenting adults (or even late teens) decide they have sex if they are brother and sister (the laws against child abuse that are already in place are more than enough to punish a (grand-)parent sexually abusing a child, we don't need special incest laws for that). And there are means of birth control to prevent that you get pregnant if you don't want to have children. There is also no need to have laws preventing incest because it usually doesn't happen all that much, especially not if the children grew up together. There is a pretty large number of sexual experimentation going on between siblings in puberty, never mind the gender, but people seldom talk about that openly.

Thinking about that, I've no idea how prevalent erotic and sex is between identical twins. Has anybody any information on this? Considering how close many such siblings are I'd be actually be pretty surprised if they did not 'try out' stuff between themselves during adolescence, never mind their actual sexual orientation.

But only very few people feel the need or the desire to actually enter into a permanent romantic relationship with a sibling they grew up with or have children together (but it happens when you do not grow up together; quite recently a couple in America trying to have children learned at the doctor's that they were actually non-identical twins, if I remember the headline correctly). But those few who do should have every right to do just as other couples who have a higher risk of producing sick children should not be disallowed by law to have sex.

No law prevents a person suffering from a genetic disease to have children of her own, never mind the fact that the risk that she or he will produce sick descendants someway down the family tree will be pretty high.

The really irrational aspect of this all springs to mind when incest laws are also used to prevent stepsiblings or adoptive siblings from entering into a normal sexual relationship. If your parents remarry and you meet a gorgeous-as-hell stepsibling you most certainly would have hit on had you met he or she in another context then preventing this kind of relationship by law is pretty much a sick joke. And there is a reason why this trope is so often use in soap operas and the like - pretty much everybody can relate to the injustice of somebody finding his or her 'true love' and then realizing that for some stupid reason 'they can't be together'.

It is also rather weird what counts as incest in certain countries. In many US states there are even laws against first cousins having sex, a rather sick law if you ask me. Cousin marriages are perfectly fine pretty much all over the world. And our Austrian neighbors even allow incest between half-siblings. You should not overdo cousin marriages, but, hell, it only happens often in societies where marriages are arranged. Only very few people actually feel attracted to their first cousins unless they did not grow up together.

There is no natural incest taboo implemented by law. Many rather large countries are perfectly fine with incestuous sex between consenting adults. And you have to differentiate between laws defining incestuous vaginal sex (mostly only that is meant, pretty much nobody cares about oral or anal sex, and nobody seems to care whether there is any gay incest or not) as a crime, and laws against marriages that are defined as incestuous. The latter does not limit your rights all that much. But actually persecuting people who love each other for that love is basically the same as throwing gay people into prison because they have gay sex. And in countries in which incest is a crime people are sent to jail for this (or are executed).

You can check the laws on incest here, if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest

As to the topic: People who have a problem with this series because of the incest it depicts (which isn't all that much) have a problem themselves. They should also think a little bit themselves why the hell they also have a problem with incest. The sex life of other people isn't their business.

George's depiction of incest is also somewhat unrealistic, actually. The Targaryen incest is usually arranged, and since the children are all raised together pretty much all of them should have been sexually and romantically drawn to other people (as Aerys and Rhaella actually are). The idea that the Conqueror really sexually desired Rhaenys, and that Alysanne and Jaehaerys I, or Jaehaerys II and Shaera really deeply loved each other is actually pretty far-fetched. Rhaenyra's desire for her dashing uncle Daemon - and Arianne's for her uncle Oberyn - makes somewhat more sense because both did not exactly grew up with their uncles spending much time with them. Oberyn spent quite some time in Essos and Daemon was mostly in the Vale, on Dragonstone, the Stepstones, and in Pentos during Rhaenyra's formative years.

In that sense a more correct/realistic depiction of Targaryen incest should have been that most Targaryens were actually deeply unhappy with their arranged incestuous marriages with their true loves always belonging to paramours or mistresses. The normal cases should be Aegon and Naerys not Jaehaerys and Alysanne. But then, perhaps there is also more propaganda than truth to those stories about those happy couples.

And as usual, it would be the women who suffered the most in those arrangements. Aegon IV and Aerys II did entertain mistresses and could thus have all the fun they wanted. But their sister-wives were stuck with them, having no chance to have a happy sex life.

Rhaenys, Visenya, and perhaps even Alysanne may have had a chance to entertain lovers of their own (although it is said that Visenya did nothing of that sort) but the later queens most definitely did not.

:agree:

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Sometimes it feels like people will defend GRRM and every decision he made and every line he writes no matter what.  

There IS a lot of incest in the story, and lest we forget his original idea was that Jon and Arya, raised as half siblings, fell in love and had a romantic relationship, which was going to turn out 'okay' because they were in reality only first cousins..that is a very unusual take on incest that has literally nothing to do with being an American, an historian, or knowing anything or everything about the War of the Roses.  It has everything to do with the mind of the author and his conscious or unconscious belief systems. in my opinion.

Maybe George thinks the seriousness of incest is being over hyped.  Consenting adults should be able to do what they want.  You know, one of the cool things in the plot, that one of the only real love in the story take place between Jaime and Cersei.  George also wants to point out there are other forms of love that are more destructive, say Rhaegar and Lyanna to pick an example.  Why people worry more about these matters and downplay violence is worrisome. 

Worrying over these relationships is worrying over nothing, I think.  That's like the mid-level manager guy worrying about the kind of barbecue sauce to bring at the company cookout while T Boone Pickens is about to raid his company and sell it off piece by piece. 

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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I don't think that Jamie and Cersei have a real love story, it's an obsessive, narcissistic sexual relationship that has led to murder and war, and Cersei doesn't even love her brother in my opinion....I can't really see anything more destructive than that, at least Rhaegar and Lyanna didin't murder anyone or throw any children out of windows.  You could just as easily conclude the message is that breaking huge social taboos is inherently destructive, no matter what the personal motivation might be, I don't think that is his message either, but it could certainly be argued that both couples are a warning against flouting cultural norms with abandon.

I don't worry about the incest, but I do think the author has some strange ideas about a lot of things, including incest.

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

:agree:

Maybe George thinks the seriousness of incest is being over hyped.  Consenting adults should be able to do what they want.  You know, one of the cool things in the plot, that one of the only real love in the story take place between Jaime and Cersei.  George also wants to point out there are other forms of love that are more destructive, say Rhaegar and Lyanna to pick an example.  Why people worry more about these matters and downplay violence is worrisome.  That's worrying about the kind of barbecue sauce to bring at the company cookout while T Boone Pickens is about to raid your company. 

I take it you are being really, really funny with this statement? Because, one of the cool things in the plot is that fact that Jamie and Cersei have one of, if not the most, volatile relationship in the story and the cool part is Jaime realizing this and choosing to walk away.

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28 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Exactly.  I'm not sure where the notion that it's a common thing comes from, but it certainly isn't.  But I respect your resolve in having so many siblings and not experimenting with them.  The struggle must have been real :rolleyes:

It was all for the donuts! :drool:

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13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I just want ideas as to why there’s so much incest in the series as the ones I’m come up with thus far don’t provide good explanations.

When I first read the book A Game of Thrones there were two times I thought to myself, “These books might not be for me.” First time it was the brother & sister sex and the second was the Dany & Drogo sex. As I continued to read the saga I thought, Damn, there is a lot of violent stuff going on.” The reason I am sharing this opinion of mine is because I stated skipping the gritty stuff I didn’t like and focused more on the parts I did like. The saga definitely doesn’t have a lot of warm fuzzy moments.

 

All of the Targ backstory, most of which involves incest

I don’t pay much attention to the Targ history.

Lysa and Robert, especially when Robert begins nuzzling Sansa’s breasts in a sexual way because he misses his mother.

Lysa, who I consider mentally unstable, is/was an over protective mother. She kept the boy on the breast way to long. The boy views Sansa as a mother figure, therefore he tries to suckle Sansa’s breast.

Asha lets Theon feel her up. Theon is disgusted. Asha is ok with it, though.

Asha is not sexually attracted to her brother. She is in charge of the situation. She’s getting the feel/measure of her brother. Theon was a pompous ass.

Arianne thinks Uncle Obie is hot.

I’ve had some good looking uncles before they got some age on them. I didn’t have sexual feelings about them. They were good looking sexy charming men.

Tyrion talks about raping Cersei.

Violence. Revenge. He knows she is repulsed by him.

Cat makes out with Petyr, but refuses him as a suitor because he’s like a brother. Then why was Cat making out with him if he was like a brother?????

They were children playing a kissing game. No shared bloodline.  Kinda sad though, because she was aware he is crushing on her.

Loras’ & Marg’s weird three-way marriage arrangement with Renly

Marg knows her brother is gay. Stannis knew Renly was gay. All she really needed from Renly was a boy child. She wasn’t in love with Renly. It was an alliance.

Sansa is being forced to make out with her “father” (Littlefinger)

It’s the slimy way LF is grooming her. She is powerless and a 13ish child at this point.

Craster’s Wonderful World of Incest

Violence. Incest to the extreme. Cultish. People knew but did nothing to intervene. Situation must have been going on a long time. He was the king of his castle and useful to the NW. Wildings didn’t have a very high opinion of him.

Strong hints that Euron was sexually abusing his brother Aeron

Violence. Intimidation. Boys rarely tell. If I have to label a character, I would label Euron as true evil. No redeeming qualities.

Victarion/Asha

He was aroused but took no action.

When Jon goes to Craster’s Incestworld, he starts thinking about his sisters. A lot. But not so much the rest of his family. Ygritte is a thorough mash-up of both sisters. When Ygritte asks Jon about sleeping with his sisters, instead of a knee-jerk “Awww hell no!”, we get the thoughtful rationalization that Craster weds his daughters.

I would have to re-read those passages for context. So, no comment.

 

Hope that helps shine a little light on your question. If you look at my comments can you see that the instances and situations can and do happen in real life.

My husband was Catholic. His large extended family is Catholic. Shit hit the fan when two 2nd cousins, both in their late 20’s started a romantic sexual relationship. Members of the family shunned them. Those two have stayed with each other a long time. Probably close to ten years. Did not marry. They are happily living their lives together.

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I take it you are being really, really funny with this statement? Because, one of the cool things in the plot is that fact that Jamie and Cersei have one of, if not the most, volatile relationship in the story and the cool part is Jaime realizing this and choosing to walk away.

I meant it.  Jaime and Cersei do love one another.  It's not the love that is destructive.  It's the fact that they have to hide it and the fact that they both have wants that tug them the other way.  Jaime wants to be a fighting man.  Cersei wants power.  Neither would make model parents.  Which isn't unusual in those times.  Robert and Rhaegar weren't either to say nothing of Aerys. 

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Sometimes it feels like people will defend GRRM and every decision he made and every line he writes no matter what.  

There IS a lot of incest in the story, and lest we forget his original idea was that Jon and Arya, raised as half siblings, fell in love and had a romantic relationship, which was going to turn out 'okay' because they were in reality only first cousins..that is a very unusual take on incest that has literally nothing to do with being an American, an historian, or knowing anything or everything about the War of the Roses.  It has everything to do with the mind of the author and his conscious or unconscious belief systems. in my opinion.

What makes you think, had GRRM followed the ideas from the original outline - of which he himself said he was only making shit up in order to sell his story -  that everything was going to turn out okay?

Cercei and Jamie's relationship was not a part of the bogus outline, and when GRRM wrote the actual story, this obviously replaced what he had in mind for Jon/Arya. I'm quite confident in saying that this did not work out okay.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I meant it.  Jaime and Cersei do love one another.  It's not the love that is destructive.  It's the fact that they have to hide it and the fact that they both have wants that tug them the other way.  Jaime wants to be a fighting man.  Cersei wants power.  Neither would make model parents.  Which isn't unusual in those times.  Robert and Rhaegar weren't either to say nothing of Aerys. 

What? Cersei manipulates the hell out of Jamie. She gets him in to the guard to keep him close to her, yet at the same time restricts and cuts off his chance to be able to marry other women. This is not love, this is a struggle between domination-control and the submissive that is having their eyes opened.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

What makes you think, had GRRM followed the ideas from the original outline - of which he himself said he was only making shit up in order to sell his story -  that everything was going to turn out okay?

Cercei and Jamie's relationship was not a part of the bogus outline, and when GRRM wrote the actual story, this obviously replaced what he had in mind for Jon/Arya. I'm quite confident in saying that this did not work out okay.

Not only that, but the entire last part of that outline was blacked out, so to claim that everyone lived happily ever after, or even acted on their desires, is not exactly true either.

I agree, the Jon and Arya twist was moved to Jamie and Cersei.

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3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

What makes you think, had GRRM followed the ideas from the original outline - of which he himself said he was only making shit up in order to sell his story -  that everything was going to turn out okay?

Cercei and Jamie's relationship was not a part of the bogus outline, and when GRRM wrote the actual story, this obviously replaced what he had in mind for Jon/Arya. I'm quite confident in saying that this did not work out okay.

Because Jon and Arya are heroes in the story where Cersei is a straight up villain and Jamie is very grey character.  The author also says a lot things, but it is still true that his original ending had Jon and Arya in a romantic relationship...which probably about 95% of people would have found varying levels of repulsive and off putting.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Because Jon and Arya are heroes in the story where Cersei is a straight up villain and Jamie is very grey character.  The author also says a lot things, but it is still true that his original ending had Jon and Arya in a romantic relationship...which probably about 95% of people would have found varying levels of repulsive and off putting.

Well, to be honest, it didn't. It had Arya torn with her thoughts, and had those two in a three way struggle with Tyrion who falls "helplessly in love" with Arya. That outline never says anything about it actually became romantically fulfilled at all. The entire ending was blacked out. We have no idea how that actually worked out, or if any of the tree even lived long enough to see it through.

And it is very plausible that since the love triangle involved a Lannister, then the shift to another Lannister/s is not that much of a change.

 

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