Jump to content

Many Faces of Death:Spitballing the God and Magic of the Faceless Men


hiemal

Recommended Posts

I've been working of the various "schools" of magic that we have encountered in ASoIaF, either directly or by repute, and I've found various tinfoil connections for the magic of CotF and the First Men, the fiery faith of R'hlorr and the wonders of Vayria, the fell and alien enchantments of the Others, and even touched on the sinister Warlocks of Qarth- but one school has left me puzzled.

The Faceless Men are as enigmatic a bunch as we have encountered, and as wrapped in seeming contradictions. Jaqen's relationship with Arya compared to the Kindly Man's, for example, could take up an entire thread. Which I kind of started of with "Cheating at Death" http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146055-cheating-at-death-re-examining-jaqens-bargain/#comment-7919206 and may continue here if appropriate. What concerns me here, however, is the magic of the Faceless Men and the "god" that fuels it.

Bucking expectation as always GRRM has tied the magic of our assassins to identity instead of either direct killing power (at least at so far as we have seen) or any other kind of illusion or stealth. Of course this theme is central to Arya of the many names and played up more with Jaqen's (probably?) aped Lorathi mannerisms.  What does this mean? Is the Many-Faced God really all of the gods as the Kindly Man tells Arya? Or is there something else going on here? Bring me your tinfoil, your random opinions, and your vague intuitions. Let's make some balls of spit.

Tinfoil to get the ball started:

1. The Many-Faced God is a collective consciousness- a self-contained soul cycle, a weirnet without roots or vessels.

1a. The severed faces are the vessels. (thanks Unchained!)

2. The Many-Faced God is the Stranger is the Amethyst Empress. This one is contingent on so many other tinfoils that I hesitate to mention it but... So the Seven are the Dawn Emperors and at the end of their reigns each would "warg" or "second-life" either a heavenly body or a natural force (so many tinfoils...) but then the BSE blah blah blah

3. There is no Many-Faced God or rather the Lorathi god, Boash, is being self-denying as usual.

4a. The Many-Faced God is Jaqen H'ghar- not a god from a box, but a god from a cage.

4b. Jaqen is the chosen or champion of the MFG, in the way that I believe that Euron is the champion of the Storm God.

5. The Many-Faced God is the Moon of the Moonsingers. The Faces are phases. The New Moon, the time of service, is sacred to the Faceless Men. Valar Dohaeris.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146777-faces-of-the-moon-the-many-faced-god-revealed/#comment-7959664

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I've been working of the various "schools" of magic that we have encountered in ASoIaF, either directly or by repute, and I've found various tinfoil connections for the magic of CotF and the First Men, the fiery faith of R'hlorr and the wonders of Vayria, the fell and alien enchantments of the Others, and even touched on the sinister Warlocks of Qarth- but one school has left me puzzled.

The Faceless Men are as enigmatic a bunch as we have encountered, and as wrapped in seeming contradictions. Jaqen's relationship with Arya compared to the Kindly Man's, for example, could take up an entire thread. Which I kind of started of with "Cheating at Death" and may continue here if appropriate. What concerns me here, however, is the magic of the Faceless Men.

Bucking expectation as always GRRM has tied the magic of our assassins to identity instead of either direct killing power (at least at so far as we have seen) or any other kind of illusion or stealth. Of course this theme is central to Arya of the many names and played up more Jaqen's (I assume) aped Lorathi mannerisms.  What does this mean? Is the Many-Faced God really all of the gods as the Kindly Man tells Arya? Or is there something else going on here? Bring me your tinfoil, your random opinions, and your vague intuitions. Let's make some balls of spit.

Tinfoil to get the ball started:

1. The Many-Faced God is a collective consciousness- a self-contained soul cycle, a weirnet without roots or vessels.

2. The Many-Faced God is the Stranger is the Amethyst Empress. This one is contingent on so many other tinfoils that I hesitate to mention it but... So the Seven are the Dawn Emperors and at the end of their reigns each would "warg" or "second-life" either a heavenly body or a natural force (so many tinfoils...) but then the BSE blah blah blah

3. There is no Many-Faced God or rather the Lorathi god, Boash, is being self-denying as usual.

When I first joined the forums I threw out a tinfoil that the Dawn Emperors second-lifed their heir's dragon or pale flamed swords.  I think that is the "organic" version of what is now sacrificial blood magic.  I think that what the mad Targaryans who want to be reborn as a dragon have a genetic memory of (Dany clearly has genetic memory of how to hatch dragons at the end on AGoT and is under-discussed).  They are supposed to be dead already and their souls in weirwood.  The weirwood, or maybe black warlock tree wood, is burnt in a pyre and the former king's soul goes into the next king's symbol of authority (like Drogo's soul makes Drogon).  The faceless men have knowledge of some sort of literal skinchanging magic that the Boltons and Farwynds used to possess.  Also, maybe the wildlings.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Unchained said:

When I first joined the forums I threw out a tinfoil that the Dawn Emperors second-lifed their heir's dragon or pale flamed swords.  I think that is the "organic" version of what is now sacrificial blood magic.  I think that what the mad Targaryans who want to be reborn as a dragon have a genetic memory of (Dany clearly has genetic memory of how to hatch dragons at the end on AGoT and is under-discussed).  They are supposed to be dead already and their souls in weirwood.  The weirwood, or maybe black warlock tree wood, is burnt in a pyre and the former king's soul goes into the next king's symbol of authority (like Drogo's soul makes Drogon).  The faceless men have knowledge of some sort of literal skinchanging magic that the Boltons and Farwynds used to possess.  Also, maybe the wildlings.  

Perhaps the faces are the tangible soul vessels like ravens and such for the weirwoods! Icky! That could explain why Arya gets such vivid impressions from the ugly girl's face. I wish we knew more about is required to wear such a face.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Perhaps the faces are the tangible soul vessels like ravens and such for the weirwoods! Icky! That could explain why Arya gets such vivid impressions from the ugly girl's face. I wish we knew more about is required to wear such a face.

 

They are definitely soul vessels like the heads Clarence Crabb kept.  Those you kill stay with you literally if you have skinchanging/greenseer magic and not just in a symbolic sense like in other literary works.  Just read Varamyr's chapter.  While I am gushing about GRRM's literary genius, the whole mutual consumption theme involving weirwood trees that consume greenseers while the greenseers themselves consume their knowledge is pulled straight from Moby Dick and that famous white leviathan.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Unchained said:

They are definitely soul vessels like the heads Clarence Crabb kept.  Those you kill stay with you literally if you have skinchanging/greenseer magic and not just in a symbolic sense like in other literary works.  Just read Varamyr's chapter.  While I am gushing about GRRM's literary genius, the whole mutual consumption theme involving weirwood trees that consume greenseers while the greenseers themselves consume their knowledge is pulled straight from Moby Dick and that famous white leviathan.  

But are the CotF in Bloodraven's cave being absorbed into the weirnet or re-absorbed? Are the CotF a species that has "bought" into the soul cycle as the First Men with blood sacrifice or were they created by the weirwoods either originally or serially (can the CotF reproduce on their own or are they literally the Forest's Children).

And can better trained Faceless Men use faces as a source of information? Arya received just jumbled impressions from hers but a better mask on a better trained assassin might be another story.

Further:

Do the souls of those slain and harvested by the FM become of this soul cycle or is that only for the FM themselves?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

But are the CotF in Bloodraven's cave being absorbed into the weirnet or re-absorbed? Are the CotF a species that has "bought" into the soul cycle as the First Men with blood sacrifice or were they created by the weirwoods either originally or serially (can the CotF reproduce on their own or are they literally the Forest's Children).

And can better trained Faceless Men use faces as a source of information? Arya received just jumbled impressions from hers but a better mask on a better trained assassin might be another story.

Further:

Do the souls of those slain and harvested by the FM become of this soul cycle or is that only for the FM themselves?

I'm open to the trees creating the children, but I just haven't seen anything that makes me think that is the case.  They have two different sexes.  I guess I would say they have bought in to the system.  I mean if I were a primitive individual and discovered a weirwood tree that contained the souls of my ancestors I would probably build my life around it too.  They are at least the children of the trees is that it is the ancestors in there.  

 

I would speculate the the the souls of the dead who's faces the FM use breaks apart at death all seem to.  Most of it goes to the after life.  Only a few shattered memories remain.  It is similar to the voice of Haggon whispering to Varamyr.  Some of the dead remains, but it is just a whisper.  I'm on my phone right now, but Qyburn explains it with his quote about the woman who just left the room but left her smell and an impression on the chair.  I think the whispers are mostly a side effect.  Maybe it is useful to stay in character.  I don't think a more experienced FM could access more because the rest has moved on. Maybe a fresher dead face would have more like how we are told the skinchangers in htheir s second life starts out strong then fades away.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Unchained said:

I'm open to the trees creating the children, but I just haven't seen anything that makes me think that is the case.  They have two different sexes.  I guess I would say they have bought in to the system.  I mean if I were a primitive individual and discovered a weirwood tree that contained the souls of my ancestors I would probably build my life around it too.  They are at least the children of the trees is that it is the ancestors in there.  

 

I would speculate the the the souls of the dead who's faces the FM use breaks apart at death all seem to.  Most of it goes to the after life.  Only a few shattered memories remain.  It is similar to the voice of Haggon whispering to Varamyr.  Some of the dead remains, but it is just a whisper.  I'm on my phone right now, but Qyburn explains it with his quote about the woman who just left the room but left her smell and an impression on the chair.  I think the whispers are mostly a side effect.  Maybe it is useful to stay in character.  I don't think a more experienced FM could access more because the rest has moved on. Maybe a fresher dead face would have more like how we are told the skinchangers in htheir s second life starts out strong then fades away.  

You make a good case!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Edited to add 4. and 4a. Jaqen as the MFG and his Chosen.A 4a is pretty out there, but I believe in completeness and I'm pretty sure Jaqen is more than just your run-of-the-mill assassin.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

Faces of Death, Faces of Gold

What is the real relationship between the MFG, the Faceless Men, and the Iron Bank? I don't have any answers, but a few interesting questions and, of course, a little bit of tinfoil.

First of all, I want to speculate that there is a relationship between the many faces of the god of death and his servants and the local version of "dead presidents", faces on coins in the vaults of the iron Bank. Gods of death and the underworld are often linked mythically with wealth by virtue of "controlling" all of the metal and jewels that lie undiscovered in the earth as well as that consigned to graves. The MFG is not a chthonic deity, despite supposedly being first worshipped underground (in a gold mine!). I feel like there is something there but I'm still flailing about.

Why is the Iron Bank iron? Steel is stronger, gold impervious to rust and tarnish- iron is common, but pure and alloyed. Unlike the Braavosi, who are also of many faces from many places. Iron is also black, and perhaps corresponds with the dark of the moon- Arya's time of service at the House of Black and White. I've argued elsewhere that the MFG is the dark face (phase) of the Moon Goddess of the Moonsingers (5. above) so my best guess is something along those lines but I'd love to hear some other ideas.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tin foil as requested. Best buckle up.

I think it may connect to the Rhoynar. See TWOIAF on the Rhoynar. TWOIAF says that the Valyrians and the Rhoynar worked out a truce for some time while the Valyrians went fire and blood on everyone else. A truce seems out of character for the Valyrians so I think the Rhoynar had stonemen and greyscale much longer than generally believed.

The Rhoynar were supposedly the first to work iron. We know that Winterfell keeps iron on its stone statues, iron repels the Others and Val says greyscale (linked to cold and damp) is always fatal north of the Wall. Ice is frozen water, so the stonemen might be linked to the Others in someway, perhaps as originators, perhaps only as parallels, perhaps as a negative aspect to the positive aspects of water. Dragon bones are said to be black because of the high iron content, so there might be something about iron and fire. Blood tastes like iron, so iron may be linked to fire and blood.

The stonemen are linked to mist, water, damp and chill as is Braavos whom the Valyrians avoided. The Rhoynar may have honed their iron-working to control the stonemen and greyscale and if Braavos doesn’t have stonemen and greyscale itself, then they at least have the climate for it and the rather unbelievable circumstance that they remained hidden from the Valyrians for a long time. I suspect that the Valyrians knew about Braavos, but avoided it because of greyscale and stonemen. This might explain Braavos’ link to metals, specifically iron and gold.

The The FM put on a face and become that person to the extent they obliterate their own identity. Water has the same property of becoming the thing that contains it, so what the FM do might be a type of water magic. The FM are based in their opposition to the Valyrian Fire.

This all plays into my crackpot that there are stonemen and greyscale under Casterly Rock. My idea at present is that when the Casterlys discovered the gold (playing into the idea of gods of death and being underground and keepers of metals and jewels), they went to the Rhoynar to learn to work it. They came back with stonemen also and this was the real reason why the Valyrians never touched Casterly Rock and the origin of the curse that Casterly Rock gold is very bad for Valyria. Interestingly, the Westerlands are strongly linked to necromancy which is not unlike the Others' wight-rising, and perhaps what happens with greyscale and becoming a stoneman. What the FM do could be seen as necromancy, as well.

This is all still in development - I'm in the middle of a Lannister re-read to see how it works with all of the POV's content.

As for their relationship? If the Rhoynar had stonemen much longer than we're led to believe, then there may have been a magical element to create them and then the iron-working hints that maybe there was a corresponding containment organization. So the FM are the weapon which threatens to get out of control and the Iron Bank works to contain and control that weapon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Tin foil as requested. Best buckle up.

:D

42 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Tin foil as requested. Best buckle up.

 

I think it may connect to the Rhoynar. See TWOIAF on the Rhoynar. TWOIAF says that the Valyrians and the Rhoynar worked out a truce for some time while the Valyrians went fire and blood on everyone else. A truce seems out of character for the Valyrians so I think the Rhoynar had stonemen and greyscale much longer than generally believed.

 

The Rhoynar were supposedly the first to work iron. We know that Winterfell keeps iron on its stone statues, iron repels the Others and Val says greyscale (linked to cold and damp) is always fatal north of the Wall. Ice is frozen water, so the stonemen might be linked to the Others in someway, perhaps as originators, perhaps only as parallels, perhaps as a negative aspect to the positive aspects of water. Dragon bones are said to be black because of the high iron content, so there might be something about iron and fire. Blood tastes like iron, so iron may be linked to fire and blood.

 

The stonemen are linked to mist, water, damp and chill as is Braavos whom the Valyrians avoided. The Rhoynar may have honed their iron-working to control the stonemen and greyscale and if Braavos doesn’t have stonemen and greyscale itself, then they at least have the climate for it and the rather unbelievable circumstance that they remained hidden from the Valyrians for a long time. I suspect that the Valyrians knew about Braavos, but avoided it because of greyscale and stonemen. This might explain Braavos’ link to metals, specifically iron and gold.

There were probably Rhoynar in the mines. I wonder what Mother Rhoyne's "death face" is?

Also- how did greyscale get to the North, and when did it first get there? The more I think about it, the more I'm with you on the Valyrian invasion not being the only origin of greyscale and/or the stonemen. I wonder if the Stoneborn are prone to greyscale?

42 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The The FM put on a face and become that person to the extent they obliterate their own identity. Water has the same property of becoming the thing that contains it, so what the FM do might be a type of water magic. The FM are based in their opposition to the Valyrian Fire.

 

This all plays into my crackpot that there are stonemen and greyscale under Casterly Rock. My idea at present is that when the Casterlys discovered the gold (playing into the idea of gods of death and being underground and keepers of metals and jewels), they went to the Rhoynar to learn to work it. They came back with stonemen also and this was the real reason why the Valyrians never touched Casterly Rock and the origin of the curse that Casterly Rock gold is very bad for Valyria. Interestingly, the Westerlands are strongly linked to necromancy which is not unlike the Others' wight-rising, and perhaps what happens with greyscale and becoming a stoneman. What the FM do could be seen as necromancy, as well.

As for their relationship? If the Rhoynar had stonemen much longer than we're led to believe, then there may have been a magical element to create them and then the iron-working hints that maybe there was a corresponding containment organization. So the FM are the weapon which threatens to get out of control and the Iron Bank works to contain and control that weapon?

 

Shiny! :D

The Iron Bank is the sword in plain sight, and the Faceless Men the dagger in the dark.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

There were probably Rhoynar in the mines. I wonder what Mother Rhoyne's "death face" is?

That's a very interesting question. The Westerosi like to classify everything to death, so the Stranger, the unknown and the unclassifiable, is their death. To a lesser extent the bastard who is unclassifiable is demonized. Perhaps the Rhoynar death face represents that which they fear most? That which is most antithetical to their way of life?

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Also- how did greyscale get to the North, and when did it first get there? The more I think about it, the more I'm with you on the Valyrian invasion not being the only origin of greyscale and/or the stonemen. I wonder if the Stoneborn are prone to greyscale?

I wonder about Dragonstone. It's described as greyscale-friendly, Shireen caught it. Aegon seemed rather at odds with some aspects of his own culture, perhaps there's something about Aegon and stonemen and that's why only the Targs survived and they further went unmolested by the FM/Iron Bank/Braavosi despite having dragons? Or perhaps the Stoneborn are naturally resistant to it?

Edit: I have a crackpot on the forum about Craster being a Casterly. If the Casterlys are linked to stonemen, then that might be a possible source of greyscale. That would seem to have some interesting implications, so I'm not sure that this would be the case. Need to think about it.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

That's a very interesting question. The Westerosi like to classify everything to death, so the Stranger, the unknown and the unclassifiable, is their death. To a lesser extent the bastard who is unclassifiable is demonized. Perhaps the Rhoynar death face represents that which they fear most? That which is most antithetical to their way of life?

Spitball: The Rhoynar god of death is the Crab King who was defeated by the Turtle King in the Long Night myth, possibly tying them to the Merling King/Moon Pale Maiden dynamic of the oceans.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

I wonder about Dragonstone. It's described as greyscale-friendly, Shireen caught it. Aegon seemed rather at odds with some aspects of his own culture, perhaps there's something about Aegon and stonemen and that's why only the Targs survived and they further went unmolested by the FM/Iron Bank/Braavosi despite having dragons? Or perhaps the Stoneborn are naturally resistant to it?

 

If greyscale is "targeted" to some degree to Targaryens that would make sense. It could thrive in warm, wet climates or require a vector that does. Or it could be more mystical. Dragonstone seems strong in fire magic- Fire of the Earth magic.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Edit: I have a crackpot on the forum about Craster being a Casterly. If the Casterlys are linked to stonemen, then that might be a possible source of greyscale. That would seem to have some interesting implications, so I'm not sure that this would be the case. Need to think about it.

 

Now I have to wonder about the Vale. Bastards named stone and more mountains with less gold (presumably). The tribes in the Mountains of the Moons...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Spitball: The Rhoynar god of death is the Crab King who was defeated by the Turtle King in the Long Night myth, possibly tying them to the Merling King/Moon Pale Maiden dynamic of the oceans.

This fits quite nicely at least from the perspective of (questionable?) spirit animal websites!

Turtles are revered by the Rhoynar. From a website:

The turtle totem wisdom teaches us about walking our path in peace and sticking to it with determination and serenity. Slow moving on earth, yet also incredibly fast and agile in water, those who have the turtle as totem or spirit animal may be encouraged to take a break in their busy lives and look around or within themselves for more grounded, long-lasting solutions. Traditionally, the turtle is symbolic of the way of peace, whether it’s inviting us to cultivate peace of mind or a peaceful relationship with our environment.

I can see where Crabs may be viewed by the Rhoynar as a death type god.

Crab totem animals are characterized by defensiveness towards others, maybe paranoia if very defensive. They also tend to withdraw into themselves for protection, are shy, guarded and slow to trust. There’s also being “crabby”. All of this sounds antithetical to the Rhoynar way of life.

 

For many centuries the Rhoynar lived in peace. Though many a savage people dwelt in the hills and forests around Mother Rhoyne, all knew better than to molest the river folk. And the Rhoynar themselves showed little interest in expansion; the river was their home, their mother, and their god, and few of them wished to dwell beyond the sound of her eternal song.

When adventurers, exiles, and traders from the Freehold of Valyria began to expand beyond the Lands of the Long Summer in the centuries after the fall of the Old Empire of Ghis, the Rhoynish princes embraced them at first, and their priests declared that all men were welcome to share the bounty of Mother Rhoyne.

As those first Valyrian outposts grew into towns, and those towns into cities, however, some Rhoynar came to regret the forbearance of their fathers. Amity gave way to enmity, particularly upon the lower river, where the ancient city of Sar Mell and the walled Valyrian town Volon Therys faced each other across the waters, and on the shores of the Summer Sea, where the Free City of Volantis soon rivaled the storied port of Sarhoy, each of them commanding one of Mother Rhoyne's four mouths.

The Rhoynar are unambitious and tend to stay at home in their rather idealized hippie commune. But within that shell, all are welcome, all are equal. It sounds like they are conflicted between turtle and crab. Turtle in the positive, crab in the negative. Interesting that crabs and turtles both have a shell and greyscale starts with developing a stone-like shell where the stone starts outside working its way inside until nothing is left. Sounds a bit like it's touching on some of the revenge themes of the books. Revenge can turn you into No One. Seen it happen a lot in movies and books where a character becomes so defined by revenge that when they achieve it, they are lost and don't know who they are anymore.

3 hours ago, hiemal said:

Now I have to wonder about the Vale. Bastards named stone and more mountains with less gold (presumably). The tribes in the Mountains of the Moons...

 

Old forgotten ways seemed to come up a lot in regards to researching the Casterlys, Jaime's dream of being in the damp watery caverns of Casterly Rock indicate this might extend to the Lannisters, too. Craster's worship comes from Whitetree. An older myth of Garth Greenhand is rather dark as he required human sacrifice. The Vale wildlings refused to conform, I can see them performing human sacrifice though I don't recall offhand that they actually do this. The Royce words are "We Remeber" yet they can't get the runes right on their bronze armor as the armor is poor. Some of the Rhoynar in Dorne also refuse to forget.

TWOIAF

(Some of the Rhoynar mourned the loss of the ships, and rather than embracing their new land, they took to plying the waters of the Greenblood, finding it a pale shadow of Mother Rhoyne, whom they continued to worship. They still exist to this day, known as the orphans of the Greenblood).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...