Ian Dunross

Who did Howland sacrifice?

22 posts in this topic

Howland was humiliated by the squires and lacked the ability to get revenge.  He's small and they're big.  He's not a good rider and he had no equipment.  He wants revenge for his honor.  That is asking a lot.  A miracle is needed to get his revenge.  He went to pray to the gods which is a kind of way saying he made a blood offering.  They answered his prayers so he must have given them something yummy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ian Dunross said:

He went to pray to the gods which is a kind of way saying he made a blood offering.

No it's not. We've seen many people praying to the old gods (Eddard, Robb, Sansa,...) without any kind of blood offering.

There's a very well-known theory regarding the knight of the laughing tree that doesn't require divine intervention and that has the benefit of helping to explain another mystery that took place in the same tournament (why Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty instead of his wife). A quick search for "king+laughing+tree+Howland+Lyanna" should lead you to many threads discussing about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

His prayers were answered in the most unlikely of ways.  A girl avenged his honor, if there is even such a thing.  The story goes he went to pray to the gods to him the strenght to beat the little boys who beat him up.  Which is embarrassing if you think about it.  Did Lyanna pray with him is the question I'm most interested in?  The blood sacrifice could be anything.  A deer.  A lost child they found wandering in the woods.  Just kidding on that last one.  So yeah it could be anything that can bleed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Ian Dunross said:

Howland was humiliated by the squires and lacked the ability to get revenge.  He's small and they're big.  He's not a good rider and he had no equipment.  He wants revenge for his honor.  That is asking a lot.  A miracle is needed to get his revenge.  He went to pray to the gods which is a kind of way saying he made a blood offering.  They answered his prayers so he must have given them something yummy. 

Nope. Praying means praying and sacrificing means sacrificing. sorry to disappoint you.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When has the Old Gods/Greenseeing magic ever shown use of miracles, especially giving a person with zero talent in jousting the ability to win in a joust?  Most "Old Gods interventions" has been shown to be just the influence of Greenseers, with evidence that the other are as well.  Even if Bran were to somehow warg Howland in the past, there is still the problem of Howlands physical stature.  No modern person has ever made blood sacrifice when praying to the Old Gods.  

Just some advice, if you are going to make bold claims and present them as facts, add evidence to support the claims.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Ian Dunross said:

Howland was humiliated by the squires and lacked the ability to get revenge.  He's small and they're big.  He's not a good rider and he had no equipment.  He wants revenge for his honor.  That is asking a lot.  A miracle is needed to get his revenge.  He went to pray to the gods which is a kind of way saying he made a blood offering.  They answered his prayers so he must have given them something yummy. 

 

19 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

No it's not. We've seen many people praying to the old gods (Eddard, Robb, Sansa,...) without any kind of blood offering.

There's a very well-known theory regarding the knight of the laughing tree that doesn't require divine intervention and that has the benefit of helping to explain another mystery that took place in the same tournament (why Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty instead of his wife). A quick search for "king+laughing+tree+Howland+Lyanna" should lead you to many threads discussing about it.

I agree with the hairy bear.  Praying to the gods is not synonymous with sacrifice and blood magic as was already pointed out by the bear.  I viewed the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree as an act of empathy and compassion for Howland Reed by Lyanna and/or her brothers.  There is no need for blood offerings for this story to make sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Invalid Date at 8:33 PM, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

When has the Old Gods/Greenseeing magic ever shown use of miracles, especially giving a person with zero talent in jousting the ability to win in a joust?  Most "Old Gods interventions" has been shown to be just the influence of Greenseers, with evidence that the other are as well.  Even if Bran were to somehow warg Howland in the past, there is still the problem of Howlands physical stature.  No modern person has ever made blood sacrifice when praying to the Old Gods.  

Just some advice, if you are going to make bold claims and present them as facts, add evidence to support the claims.  

Yet we're more than willing to believe that a sixteen year old girl with no jousting experience was able to defeat three successful jousters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Jojen. He sacrificed his first born son

Jojen is still alive. Or you mean he was given to te gods as some kind of servant, and that's why he have green dreams? Also we don´t know if Jojen was his first born son. He may have other sons but sent Jojen to Bran bacause of his deams.

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet we're more than willing to believe that a sixteen year old girl with no jousting experience was able to defeat three successful jousters?

You just say that because one of them was from your House (a Frey). But you are right, and that's why I think it was Benjen the knight, not Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't we have evidence, via Bran vision of Lyanna beating Benjen with fake swords?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet we're more than willing to believe that a sixteen year old girl with no jousting experience was able to defeat three successful jousters?

Yes. Because this is fiction. Fantasy fiction. With dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yet we're more than willing to believe that a sixteen year old girl with no jousting experience was able to defeat three successful jousters?

Do we know enough about Lyanna to know that she never jousted? We know that she could fight with melee weapons and Eddard went as far as to tell Arya that she may have worn a sword if their father had allowed it. She was also said to be a superior rider, so it's not a stretch to think that she could have done some tilting against her brothers at Winterfell.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Jojen. He sacrificed his first born son

Exactly.

Jojen was sent to Winterfell with a purpose, and not simply to bend a knee. He repeated (quite obsessively) that "today is not the day I die", as he already knew the time (or maybe the setting) of his death, later he stated in BR's cave, that Bran is not the one who should be afraid, he also became more and more depressed.

1 hour ago, Tygett Blackwood said:

Jojen is still alive.

Maybe he is, although the Jojen-paste theory seems to hold water. He may still die a sacrificial death, after all he resides in an ominous cave with an old greenseer of bad reputation and several spooky humanoids following a religion based (partly) on blood sacrifice.

Another aspect of the story suggesting that Howland considered his son a sacrifice is that he raised Meera to be a "warrior-maiden". The same pattern appears over and over again when there's no male hire, or he is not expected to inherit (Asha, tha Sandsnakes, the Mormont girls).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Bloodmane said:

Maybe he is, although the Jojen-paste theory seems to hold water. He may still die a sacrificial death, after all he resides in an ominous cave with an old greenseer of bad reputation and several spooky humanoids following a religion based (partly) on blood sacrifice.

I hadn't tougth so. You might be rigth.

 

8 minutes ago, Bloodmane said:

The same pattern appears over and over again when there's no male hire, or he is not expected to inherit (Asha, tha Sandsnakes, the Mormont girls).

The Sandsnakes are bastards of a second son, they will not inherit anything

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2017 at 11:31 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Yet we're more than willing to believe that a sixteen year old girl with no jousting experience was able to defeat three successful jousters?

One, this sixteen year old girl also "officially" has no sword fighting experience, yet we are shown via the weirnet her training with Benjen.  It is possible that she also obtained jousting skill in a similar unofficial manner.

Second, GRRM has been shown to be a bit lax in regards to physics in this series.  Examples of this would be the ability to fire an arrow seven hundred feet during the Battle of Castle Black, as well as Tyrion's ability in both combat and acrobatics which have been shown to be physically impossible given Tyrion's handicaps.  Magic has nothing to do with these examples and just show physics taking a back seat to the plot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/7/2017 at 1:21 AM, Ian Dunross said:

Howland was humiliated by the squires and lacked the ability to get revenge.  He's small and they're big.  He's not a good rider and he had no equipment.  He wants revenge for his honor.  That is asking a lot.  A miracle is needed to get his revenge.  He went to pray to the gods which is a kind of way saying he made a blood offering.  They answered his prayers so he must have given them something yummy. 

It was Jojen.  I actually just finished a long post on the Killing Word thread about it.  It is a theme running through the books.  Cersei sacrifices Joffrey for her savior Tyrion without knowing just like Dany sacrifices Rheago without knowing.  It is the story of Rumpelstilskin, although I did not mention him and I just realized I should have.  Take a look if interested.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Unchained said:

It was Jojen.  I actually just finished a long post on the Killing Word thread about it.  It is a theme running through the books.  Cersei sacrifices Joffrey for her savior Tyrion without knowing just like Dany sacrifices Rheago without knowing.  It is the story of Rumpelstilskin, although I did not mention him and I just realized I should have.  Take a look if interested.  

I see now.  You're saying these parents and future parents sacrificed their first-born sons to get what they want.  I can not argue with that at the moment.  I suppose you could argue that Cersei will fight the white walkers too.  Like the heroes in a video game rpg, they sacrificed their first-born sons in order to get their most powerful weapons.   Look at the situation long enough and you begin to make the connection to Azor Ahai.  Dany is straightforward, her sacrifice gave her the dragons.  Cersei got the mountain.  Howland got his revenge which in turn made him the man that he became and got something out of it, a bond with the Starks.  Aerys sent his son to battle and in return got a better child in Dany.  Rickard used Brandon to build his conspiracy, lost him, but Ned became the inheritor, which is a better person than Brandon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

There is evidence in the books that Lyanna trained for combat with her brothers.  Jojen sees a vision of young Lyanna besting Benjen in swordplay by the heart tree in Winterfell.  In the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree she comes upon the three squires tormenting young Howland and drives them off with a tourney sword.  Jousting is considered to be a competition based largerly on riding skills and Lyanna is also well known to excel in this as well.  From the wiki:

Quote

Lyanna is noted to have been a skilled rider who loved to ride.   According to Harwin of Winterfell, Lyanna rode "like a northman", while Barbrey Dustin describes her as a centaur, and Roose Bolton states that Lyanna was "half a horse herself".

 

Since it is established that Lyanna learned to wield a sword from her older brothers it isn't a big stretch to assume that they also taught her how to joust and perhaps tilt at rings.  I find it much easier to believe that the KotLT was Lyanna acting out of compassion and sypathy for Howland Reed than that Howland made a blood sacrifice to assume the identity himself.  No miracle required.

Edited by White Ravens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

There is evidence in the books that Lyanna trained for combat with her brothers.  Jojen sees a vision of young Lyanna besting Benjen in swordplay by the heart tree in Winterfell.  In the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree she comes upon the three squires tormenting young Howland and drives them off with a tourney sword.  Jousting is considered to be a competition based largerly on riding skills and Lyanna is also well known to excel in this as well.  From the wiki:

 

Since it is established that Lyanna learned to wield a sword from her older brothers it isn't a big stretch to assume that they also taught her how to joust and perhaps tilt at rings.  I find it much easier to believe that the KotLT was Lyanna acting out of compassion and sypathy for Howland Reed than that Howland made a blood sacrifice to assume the identity himself.  No miracle required.

Lyanna is a "slim, sad girl" and unlikely to have the arm strength to hold the lance steady enough to unhorse three experienced riders.  Her riding skills are superb and we cannot doubt that.  That riding and having a good seat is important to jousting is fact.  I just think there is plenty of room for doubt here.  The booming voice and the arm strength required are attributes that Lyanna would not have.  I can understand getting lucky with the first tilt but three.  Oh well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Lyanna is a "slim, sad girl" and unlikely to have the arm strength to hold the lance steady enough to unhorse three experienced riders.  Her riding skills are superb and we cannot doubt that.  That riding and having a good seat is important to jousting is fact.  I just think there is plenty of room for doubt here.  The booming voice and the arm strength required are attributes that Lyanna would not have.  I can understand getting lucky with the first tilt but three.  Oh well. 

For sure we are all just speculating here but I find it easier to assume that Lyanna (or Benjen) assumed  the role of the KotLT to defend Howland than Howland needing a miracle and performing a blood sacrifice to magic himself up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now