Assassin's Fate, Robin Hobb

[Maia]

18 hours ago, Consigliere said:

 The ending was very fitting and pretty much perfect except that I was a little disappointed that neither Fitz nor the Fool reached the decision to join each other in the wolf on their own.

I am gearing up for some big posts, but just wanted to quickly point out that the Fool would have certainly  jumped at a chance to join Fitz in the wolf, if not for Bee's manipulative interference. IMHO, even Fitz laying responsibility for Bee on him wouldn't have held him back in the end - though it was yet another obstacle in his path. And it is very understandable why Fitz fought very hard against the realisation that it was time.

Oh, and I can't help but wonder if the Wolf isn't going to be very different from other stone dragons, who were created by people tired of their lives and/or by people completely focused on accomplishing a vitally important a task. Would the Wolf_want_ to go to sleep? And if Silver can turn a cocoon of a dead dragon into a living one, what can it do for the stone "dragons"? Keep them going without the need to consume people's life-force/memories for sure, and maybe more. I very much suspect that the mystery of a city where Verity found that Silver  current was being held back on purpose - particularly after the insistence that it was _not_ Kelsingra.

And BTW, given the existence of stone dragons, shouldn't it be possible to create a different type of liveships - one entirely of human make, animated by human volonteers? You'd have to somehow work the memory sand into wood and make them imprevious to acid by other means, but it might be doable, no?

@RedEyedGhost

I am really sorry that my mention of a twist in Bee's storyline negatively impacted your reading experience. I didn't consider it a spoiler, because IMHO it was pretty much a given that there would be at least one in that plot-line, and, as it happened, there were a couple.

Some folks in the other thread felt that Bee's thread was repetitive and reminiscent of Fitz's journey in  AQ - which, on re-read is much better, BTW, but which still could have lost at least one episode and been the better for it. But with Bee, all of it is actually more to the point and builds up to the revelation of Dwalia being her Catalyst - that was, IMHO a brilliant twist. Which, BTW, also nicely deflected the accusations leveled at pretty much any capable female character and which were being thrown at Bee - that of being a Mary Sue. 

[Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Maia said:

Oh, and I can't help but wonder if the Wolf isn't going to be very different from other stone dragons, who were created by people tired of their lives and/or by people completely focused on accomplishing a vitally important a task. Would the Wolf_want_ to go to sleep? And if Silver can turn a cocoon of a dead dragon into a living one, what can it do for the stone "dragons"? Keep them going without the need to consume people's life-force/memories for sure, and maybe more. I very much suspect that the mystery of a city where Verity found that Silver  current was being held back on purpose - particularly after the insistence that it was _not_ Kelsingra.

Possible, I suppose. Although I hope that the stone dragons and wolf remain as stone and should Hobb write further books in this setting then I hope that the wolf remains as much in the background as Verity-as-Dragon. As one of Fitz' writings mentions in the final chapter, "stone remembers" and will be around long after dragons, elderlings and humans are gone. In a way they have achieved immortality. I hope that the wolf sees Kettricken and co. safely to the Mountain Kingdom then returns to where the stone dragons are, finds a nice comfy spot near Verity-as-Dragon and sleeps.

 

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And BTW, given the existence of stone dragons, shouldn't it be possible to create a different type of liveships - one entirely of human make, animated by human volonteers? You'd have to somehow work the memory sand into wood and make them imprevious to acid by other means, but it might be doable, no?

Again possible but not something I see likely as happening. I think that Hobb introduced Impervious ships for a reason. These ships will replace the Liveships and ensure that trade on the Rain Wild River can continue. I also wonder whether all Liveships will want to transform, specifically Ophelia who was said to have no recollection of her dragon memories.

[shadowbinding shoe]

@RedEyedGhost Congratulations on finishing the book. Sounds like you enjoyed it.

On 18.5.2017 at 7:38 PM, RedEyedGhost said:

 

How freaking old is Prilkop?  Whites are hard to kill, but all his work seems to have been pre-Cataclysm.  If he got that dark setting the world on a better path, before the Servants sent it crashing down, that implies some serious time in between...  I think I would have preferred seeing him and the rest of the surviving Whites go down too.  I don't trust them to "return to the way things were before."  It didn't feel like all the weeds were pulled.

There's not enough of them left to rebuild what they were. There's a point when a population is too small to maintain itself and they were already skirting it before they were decimated. (there were about 200 of them before, right? Now there's 30-40 of them left, I guess?) So they'll need to breed with ordinary humans (again) to produce viable children and it will be generations before a White will be born from those. Only a ruthless person who's very long lived (like the Four) will have the patience to start another breeding program from what remains. Without Capra they'll soon lose their armed and monetary support. Prilkop wrote that they lost their vision for the most part in this new future Bee created. Maybe because they're no longer relevant to it without the Servants to affect changes. So the easy life is over for them. Prilkop may be eternal but the rest will probably die off in 200-300 years tops and probably long before that.

The Dragons and Elderling also have dangerous powers. Doesn't mean it's inevitable they'd abuse them beyond redemption.

@Maia Do you honestly believe Dwalia was Bee's catalyst? She never directed her. At most she prodded Videliar to be independent. If someone influenced her, maybe it was Beloved while she tortured him. Or maybe Prilkop saw a possible future that never took place. One of the prophecies suggested there were 3 paths open for Bee: Destroy Clerres as she did, get broken/killed through torture and abuse but Fitz and dragons still destroy Clerres in vengeance (a broken nut that spews horrors) or integrate in Clerres society and become a Dark Lady (she wears a a black and red crown). If she chose the last maybe Dwalia would've have been her catalyst/major-domo. Otherwise I don't see it.

[Darth Richard II]

DIdn't she go through one of those change fevers after dwalia was dead?

[shadowbinding shoe]

On 21.5.2017 at 0:23 AM, Darth Richard II said:

DIdn't she go through one of those change fevers after dwalia was dead?

Wasn't that after she left on the ship and Clerres was destroyed?

[Darth Richard II]

34 minutes ago, shadowbinding shoe said:

Wasn't that after she left on the ship and Clerres was destroyed?

Yes, long after Dwalia was dead.

[HexMachina]

do the fever changes necessarily relate to the catalyst though? Beloved's seem to happen randomly, like when Beloved is posing as Amber and the Paragon sets sail in Liveships. (Though really that brings up questions regarding Catalysts because Beloved seems to imply that Wintrow (or Malta, or Althea) was a Catalyst in this situation, and I thought it was one Catalyst per Prophet)

[RedEyedGhost]

A White Prophet usually has a primary Catalyst, but it's not a one to one thing.  Which is why Beloved was able to fool the Servants about Fitz's identity so long - "A stable boy, a bastard prince, an assassin."   

With Dwalia Bee changed in such a way that her skin became more pale - which I guess happens when the world is set on a less favorable track.  Bee then darkened when she set things right by destroying the Servants, as Beloved darkened when he affected his changes on the world.

[kimim]

13 minutes ago, RedEyedGhost said:

With Dwalia Bee changed in such a way that her skin became more pale - which I guess happens when the world is set on a less favorable track.  Bee then darkened when she set things right by destroying the Servants, as Beloved darkened when he affected his changes on the world

Yeah, I think Whites get darker as they help establish the world on the best available path, which is why Prilkop is black, and why the pale woman is white--she's accomplished a lot, but she's done nothing to set the world on a better path. With the Fool, changes all have to do with dragons: he's white when Fitz first meets him, is darker in the Mountains, as he's about to leave on the journey to the stone dragons, and darker again on the journey, as he approaches the dragons. Amber, on Paragon, gets darker, as she's a step closer to bringing back the dragons. Fool gets darker in the middle of Golden Fool, as he's about to leave for Asjelval and Icefyre, is darker again after his resurrection, as he has the dragons back.

btw that the pale woman is proud of her whiteness shows how effective Clerres has been in keeping the prophets corralled and ignorant of their true purpose.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

Yeah, I think Whites get darker as they help establish the world on the best available path, which is why Prilkop is black, and why the pale woman is white--she's accomplished a lot, but she's done nothing to set the world on a better path. With the Fool, changes all have to do with dragons: he's white when Fitz first meets him, is darker in the Mountains, as he's about to leave on the journey to the stone dragons, and darker again on the journey, as he approaches the dragons. Amber, on Paragon, gets darker, as she's a step closer to bringing back the dragons. Fool gets darker in the middle of Golden Fool, as he's about to leave for Asjelval and Icefyre, is darker again after his resurrection, as he has the dragons back.

btw that the pale woman is proud of her whiteness shows how effective Clerres has been in keeping the prophets corralled and ignorant of their true purpose.

Actually the implication I got with Illistore/Pale Woman was she was in league with the Four. So it was less a case of keeping her ignorant and more a case of having her on their side. There are a few things pointing this way imo, but most telling is her destruction/desecration of the Elderlings belongings on Aslevjal. I don't think she would have been so wantonly destructive and petty if she hadn't been collaborating with the Four.

I agree on the colour changing thing. I think I mentioned that back near the beginning of the thread because Bee turns paler after Trader Akriel's death. It was the stuff with the Catalysts I was unsure of, but REG clarified above.

[kimim]

9 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Actually the implication I got with Illistore/Pale Woman was she was in league with the Four. So it was less a case of keeping her ignorant and more a case of having her on their side. There are a few things pointing this way imo, but most telling is her destruction/desecration of the Elderlings belongings on Aslevjal. I don't think she would have been so wantonly destructive and petty if she hadn't been collaborating with the Four.

I agree on the colour changing thing. I think I mentioned that back near the beginning of the thread because Bee turns paler after Trader Akriel's death. It was the stuff with the Catalysts I was unsure of, but REG clarified above.

oh ita. She was obviously working for them. Given her pride in her whiteness, though, I think the four were using her, lying to her, keeping her ignorant.

A catalyst of some sort would be necessary for darkening, but the identity of the catalyst would be immaterial. Beloved darkens with Fitz, and darkens with Paragon/Malta/Wintrow, too.

btw when he returns, he's grey. Is that a result of torture, or a sign that he was forced off the path?

[Darth Richard II]

Ahh multiple catalysts...duh.

[kimim]

I'm rereading the entire thing from scratch, and I noticed a parallel between the end of Royal Assassin, where Fitz is having a very difficult time "letting go" into Nighteyes, and the end of Assassin's Fate, when Fitz also can't let go, until the Fool comes to accompany him. The latter could also be a lack of memories, of course. Anyway, it's impressive the way the whole thing hangs together.

Also, in Fool's Quest there are references to the "Wolf of the West" in Bee's dream journal, who "would come from the Mountains to save all." As a result of that, I'd expected Fitz to enter the wolf earlier and "save all," but that didn't happen. Is this something that will happen in a future series set in the same world, or just something we assume the wolf would do? The silver queen would be something like that, too.

 

 

[HexMachina]

I think "Wolf in the West" was more metaphorical. Well metaphorical isn't exactly the right term I don't think, but it referred to Fitz because he carried Nighteyes with him (well until he went to Bee). 

Just to check, the references to a Piebald were Fitz, right? 

[RedEyedGhost]

6 hours ago, kimim said:

oh ita. She was obviously working for them. Given her pride in her whiteness, though, I think the four were using her, lying to her, keeping her ignorant.

A catalyst of some sort would be necessary for darkening, but the identity of the catalyst would be immaterial. Beloved darkens with Fitz, and darkens with Paragon/Malta/Wintrow, too.

btw when he returns, he's grey. Is that a result of torture, or a sign that he was forced off the path?

She's so indoctrinated in the Servants' Path that she probably saw Prilkop and Beloved as abominations.  I tend to think that Beloved's coloring was more from the torture than being on the wrong path, because he didn't do anything detrimental to the world while he was captive.

 

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Just to check, the references to a Piebald were Fitz, right? 

There are six instances of piebald in the book, four of them are followed immediately by bird (and then silver ship - Paragon), the fifth is followed by crow, when Bee first sees Motley, and the sixth is a reference to Fool's Errand.  So it's piebald in the literal sense, not the figurative Piebalds.  

[kimim]

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I think "Wolf in the West" was more metaphorical. Well metaphorical isn't exactly the right term I don't think, but it referred to Fitz because he carried Nighteyes with him (well until he went to Bee). 

Just to check, the references to a Piebald were Fitz, right? 

True. Fitz is from the Mountain kingdom (west) and he's a wolf, not to mention a Fool. Here it also sounds like the Wolf has become a mythic figure who will aid the Six Duchies when they're in need. Given how much self-hate and guilt poor Fitz has put himself through, this is sweet: 

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Wolf of the West...would race to the aid of any of his subjects who called upon him

 

[TheRevanchist]

And finished it. Review in spoilers:

The last, and probably the best book in the Realm of the Elderlings.

Realm of the Elderlings has been a part of my life. Being a big fantasy fan meant that I had to read this books. And boy, I was in a treat. Starting with the first Fitz trilogy, and then continuing with my favorite 'Liveship Traders' to read the second Fitz trilogy, the not-that-good Rain Wild Chronicles, and to finish everything with what I started, Fitz and his final trilogy.

This book was awesome in every aspect. Not only that the main story was great, but the way it combined all the loose ties from the previous saga. I was hoping that I will see again not only Kettricken, Needle and Verity but also the Liveship Trader protagonists. And to my pleasant surprise, Paragon, Brashen and Althea had large roles in this book, with Vivacia and Wintrow making interesting appearances too. It gave the feeling that this isn't just the conclusion to the Fitz's story, but it is the conclusion of a 16 books epic story.

As for the book itself, it continued where the second book was finished. The story of Fitz trying to find the little Bee, and the story of Bee trying to survive and the transformation she had to do to achieve that. A great story, with a lot of nice moments, and more dragons than in any other Fitz book. But the real strength of the book - as I said in the previous paragraph - was how the author combined everything from the entire saga and by the end of the book, there was no question left unanswered, no loose tie.

The ending was bittersweet. While someone might have preferred a happy ending, I think that it was the only ending it made sense. The Fitz and the Fool achieved pretty much everything they had to achieve, and they returned the dragons in the world. The freeing of liveships was something I really loved to see and something I had lost hope since the end of the Liveship Traders. The emotion on that happening, and the side effects were described in a very nice way from Althea Vestrit. And we saw everyone important to Fitz, Hobb really didn't forget everything.

An epic conclusion to an epic saga. And now I just see that Robin Hobb has surpassed Robert Jordan as the author I have read most books from (16 books, all in the Elderling saga). Who said that woman cannot write good fantasy books?

Goodbye, FitzChivalry Farseer, my old friend! It was good to know you.

It was a very nice reading.

[TheRevanchist]

Chade having a tragic ending was probably my only concern. But really, Hobb had to find a way with him. He never was someone who just waits, and sending him with Fitz in the mission was an impossibility. A sad ending for him, but everything in this book was sad.

I also don't accept that Fitz died. In some way, he continues living. Like Verity.

Kettricken loving Fitz! It was always a bit of a platonic relationship to be fair. They always had strong feeling for each other, that were somewhere between best friend and a lover, but with loyalty to Verity in between. Still, it was a nice dialogue between them in the end.

[Arkash]

Currently reading through... so I wont look at other posts ! 

I'm now gonna start the chapter "surprises" (just after Fitz and Bee were reunited and Per killed Vindeliar - yaaaaay !)... gearing up to face the inevitable Fitz sacrifice... or, well, it would be a huge surprise from Robin if he survived the book, but I really dont see it happening.

What I really hope for is a new trilogy set in the Realm of Elderlings after that one. I fear that with Fitz gone, she'll not be interested in visiting her universe anylonger. But some (big) part of me also knows this fear is unfounded : there will be plently of materials to continue visiting the world and the new generation is definitly on its way.

If I'm not mistaken, Fitz, Beloved and Kettricken are the only remaining characters from the very beginning... damn, the day Kettricken will die will leave a huge hole and I wouldnt be surprised if she'd die before the book is over...

Well, anyway, between Bee, Hope (welcome to the world you !), Per, Dutiful and Elliana's sons (cant remember their names), Boy-o, Kennitson, Phron, Thymara and Tat's daughter (cant remember her name either), Lant and Spark, a potential child from Alise and Leftrin (if it's not too late)... and the "middle generation", we have a hell lot of other stories to discover, especially after the changes Bee will bring to the world (although I'm not safe for a final twist in the book that would make all my predictions void and useless).... oh and there are Molly and Burrich's sons as well, but I'm not sure what they could bring to the story. And the character I really wish to see more of is Nettle. I'm sure if she (Robin) continues developing the universe, we'll see a lot of Bee, but I'd wish to see Nettle as a major protagonist forward.

Anyway, probably gonna finish the book tonight ! 

[SeanF]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 7:59 PM, kimim said:

Is there a lot of difference between Servants and the Elderlings?

Both are partly human, partly a "superior" species gifted with magic, long life. Both see humans as a resource to exploit.

In the past, Servants and Elderlings must have been in competition, controlling one another. With the Elderlings gone, the Servants, presumably, went after world domination. I wonder if their breeding programs, enslavement of prophets really got going at this point; Prilkop remembers the fall of the Elderlings, and he also remembers a time when Clerres was still relatively decent. Prilkop is old, but surely not tens of thousands of years old.

Thanks to the Fool, now the Servants are gone. Elderlings are on their own, and they have the same potential for good-evil that Clerres did.

The Fool's new world isn't looking rosy for the humans, unless, of course, this is why he had to hand the silver to Paragon. If humans get some dragons siding with them, if they develop their talent for Skill and Wit, possibly the situation can be equalized...but then there'd still be the difference between the magical and non-magical folk. We'll see how this all works in further series, maybe.

The dragons are very few in number.  They could kill a lot of humans, in a fight, but they'd likely be overwhelmed in the end, which was why Mercor wanted them not to take indiscriminate revenge against Chalced.

WRT Prilkop's age, I think the downfall of the Dragons and Elderlings took place hundreds, not thousands, of years previously.  It must have taken place when most of the current generation of dragons were just hatching as sea serpents.