Aegon VII

Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

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Here I will show the parallels between the two incidents we know of at the trident and explore the idea of Jon Darry dying in Rhaegar’s armor in his place. It follows that MR=RT but that’s not what I wish to focus on here. Most of this theory will not be supported with all the details as there are a ton of components but please feel free to point things out and I can elaborate on the evidence. Also, pretty soon into this theory you’ll notice I drop the , “I will argue” and “I believe” as it should be assumed it is the position I am taking for this theory, rather than me telling it to you as a fact. I will use blue for book text. Fair warning, this was written as more of a stream of consciousness so it could be edited to flow much better.

 

As a little background I think Rhaegar had been getting prophetic info in his youth for some time from the Ghost of High Heart as well as BR (possibly BR sending the info as dreams to the GoHH). I like the idea of Jenny’s song having a huge thematic role in the series, with the idea being Rhaegar wrote it after getting prophecy related info from the woods witch and it describes what he knows will happen to him and his loved ones. It would support my theory if he saw himself dying at the trident. I also believe BR has learned many sorcery secrets by this time, such as glamoring and that some of this was passed on to Rhaegar. I will argue that Rhaegar was never at the trident, that instead he devised a plan to have Jon Darry take his place in his armor. Perhaps this was Rhaegar’s attempt to disrupt prophecy, when of course all it did was fulfill it. Darry was  glamored to look like Rhaegar while Rhaegar remained with Lyanna. At this point Rhaegar believes Jon will be TPTWP/AA and his top priority is Jon’s protection and/or making sure any conditions of the prophecy are met in order to make Jon TPTWP (hopefully that doesn’t mean a Lyanna sacrifice!)

 

So Rhaegar devises a plan with his closest KG where Darry fights for him at the trident while Rhaegar is up in the tower with Lyanna. There evidence that suggests Rhaegar is alive unrelated to the other components of this theory. Here I will mention a few quotes that would be nods from GRRM that Rhaegar is alive. There’s much more evidence if we were to go down the MR=RT road. (Ignore italics, it’s just from where I copied and pasted the quotes from)

 

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."
"You did," Ned reminded him.
"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

 

Once wasn’t enough to get the job done?

 

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

 

With MR=RT, Rhaegar assumes many different identities and has multiple deaths. Also the number of a thousand is heavily associated with BR.

 

“Well take heart, father; at least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead.”

 

Would be ironic if he wasn’t.

 

'Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.'

 

Interesting that he purposely separates “and Rhaegar died” from Rhaegar’s other traits? Perhaps the first three things are true, the last one isn’t.

 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

 

In Jaime’s weirwood dream the flame is life. He and Brienne try to not let theirs go out. But Rhaegar being described as burning with a cold light suggests he too has a flame and is therefore also alive.

 

Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows”

 

A couple pages earlier we learn that Rhaegar’s eyes are indigo. If he is now Mance, this vision works perfectly as it is saying that Rhaegar’s heart is still alive, though he is a much different man now having spend so much time north of the wall. Ponderous is another word for solemn which seems to fit Rhaegar’s personality to a tee. It’s also interesting to compare this with Jaime’s dream. They flip the idea of light burning and light washing out. I would recommend reading the two scenes back to back and comparing.

 

So, I know those may seem a bit random but to me each one is a clever nod if Rhaegar is alive. Either way, there’s enough that it got me to thinking if Rhaegar is alive, how did it happen. I believe there are really two options. 1) Someone wears his armor. 2) he fights and dies/ is gravely injured, he then is healed at the quiet isle. To me the first option makes more sense. He tells Jaime they will talk when he returns as he has plans to make changes. This seems unfulfilled if Rhaegar just dies. We also see that Rhaegar is getting info from a higher source e.g. “it seems I must be a warrior”. I believe this would serve to give Rhaegar the upperhand,  perhaps even making him overconfident. Rhaegar actually being at the battle takes a lot of magic/ dues ex machina for him to survive. He has is chest caved in, whomever was in that armor did not likely live to tell the tale. So that leaves us with one someone taking his place. After a lot of though I think Jon Darry makes the most sense. Once I started to look into it, I found more and more evidence to support it. There are no details about Jon Darry’s death at the trident. AWOIAF says

 

“Ser Jon was slain at the Trident,[5] cut down in the midst of the conflict”

 

A very small note here is that BR is heavily associated with mist, and midst and mist sound almost the same.

 

Another thing to note is that House Darry resides at the Darry. I don’t know of any other houses who’s seat is the same as their last name. Draws attention to Darry the person=Darry the castle, their highborn and castle being conflated. Their sigil is the plowman and the apartments where they sleep are called the Plowman’s keep. They are very straightforward in their naming/identity, whereas this theory is suggesting JD embraces the exact opposite by assuming Rhaegar’s identity at the trident.

 

“Darry had changed hands several times during the fighting, and its castle had been burned once and sacked at least twice, but Lancel had seemingly wasted little time setting things to rights. The castle gates were newly hung, raw oaken planks reinforced with iron studs. A new stable was going up where an older one had been put to the torch. The steps to the keep had been replaced, and the shutters on many of the windows. Blackened stones showed where the flames had licked, but time and rain would fade those.”

 

I suggest this is referring to Jon and Willem both dying in service to the targs, while the burning was actually Jon Darry burning after the trident in Rhaegar’s place. This passage also evokes a sense of rebirth/ recreation in the rebuilding of the castle, which is exactly what JD’s death at the trident allowed Rhaegar to do. Note we have mention of Blackened stones and fire, which is a targ association. The stone relates to Bran’s first vision as well, that we will discuss later.

 

“When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

 

JD has more of a more of a reason to snap here at Jaime if Rhaegar had already told him his plan of having Darry dress in his armor, more so if Rhaegar told him that he saw himself die and JD was going to be glamored to look like Rhaegar. Also the one line we have JD speak is about a cloak and a promise, both heavily associated with MR=RT and R+L=J.

 

“On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king?”

 

Interesting that the crowned prince was left out to be eaten, seems unlikely. It would make more sense if it is just a further hint that it’s not really Rhaegar, as this way he’s no longer able to be recognized. It also connects Rhaegar to crows, BR and NW.

 

Now I want to shift gears into examining the second incident we have at the trident, Nymeria attacking Joff and Lady’s subsequent execution. It was this examination that made me believe this theory actually has some legs.

 

“Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.”

 

We are led to believe this is Rhaegar whispering Lyanna’s name as Robert kills him. Perhaps this is just happening in the vision though and is not what actually happened. Or Rhaegar told Jon Darry, “If you die whisper Lyanna’s name” knowing it’s a necessary part of the prophecy. Either way, saying a lady’s name right before death at the trident parallels Ned’s sacrifice of Lady, where guess what, he says her name right before executing her.

 

“Lady,” he said, tasting the name…. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin."

 

Let’s note the parallels. Here it is Robert who orders Lady’s death. Ned wields the sword, but truly it is Robert that killed her. So the first time at the trident we have Robert killing a Dragon and this time we have him killing a wolf. Only it’s the wrong wolf. Likely the stories will remember it as Joff killing the wolf that bit him. There’s a line from the show that would work perfectly about how they’ll make songs about it, but it’s not in the books so that doesn’t do us much good. Robert not killing the correct wolf here supports the idea that he did not kill the correct Dragon the first time.

 

Also, since Joff is a false Baratheon there are other parallels that could be made. Here a false Baratheon fights a wolf and a wolf dies. At the Battle of the trident, it would have been a Baratheon fighting a false dragon and the dragon dies.

 

Ned killing Lady while saying her name could be viewed as the sacrifice that allowed the starks to warg and/or Bran to wake up, as his chapter immediately follows, which we will dig into as well.  Would Rhaegar’s/ JD’s death with a woman’s name be a similar sacrifice that allowed Jon to be TWPTP.

 

Lady’s death is offscreen. Seems odd, as we’re in Ned’s POV and he skips over the execution itself. Reminds us of the BotT and Rhaegar’s death, which was offscreen as well.

 

We also have the hound coming back with the butcher’s boy,

 

"No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

 

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood.

 

The hound introducing the body as “her little pet” leads ned and the reader to believe the corpse is a wolf. We are being purposely misled though and a wolf was not slain here, it was a lesser person (to be crude). Why would grrm mislead us in this way? To show that at the BoT we are led to believe a Dragon was killed when in fact it was a lesser person. We also have the cloak concealing the identity of the corpse, in the same way Rhaegar’s cloak and armor would have concealed the identity of JD’s corpse.

 

Robert was slumped in Darry's high seat at the far end of the room, his face closed and sullen.

 

This is the point that I actually started to think this theory has support. So now to add another parallel, Robert is assuming the role of a Darry by sitting in the Darry high seat. So here we have Robert in the trappings of a Darry killing a wolf, whereas last time at the trident, Robert killed a Darry in the trappings of a dragon. This seems significant.

 

Ser Raymun Darry guarded his look well.

 

Fits with the idea of a Darry concealing his looks through armor.

 

Immediately following this chapter we go into Bran’s 3EC dream.

 

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

 

We often have characters described in dreams/visions as shadows and it is usually related to Rhaegar and/or R+L=J. Here I believe it’s obvious we have the hound and then Jaime, arguably the two characters with the biggest redemption/resurrection arcs. The third character is often thought of as the mountain or LF. Both don’t really fit that well as they have nothing to do with the trident. I believe it being JD and Rhaegar. A giant armored in stone could be desribing Darry as the town, and as we see the town and the people are conflated concepts. It could also just be because of how huge this is to the story, how great of a character Rhaegar, or it’s stone because this is from the past. There being nothing under the visor supports JD dying and being unrecognizable once dead. His face was either pecked by crows or part of the glamour was to make the face just look bloody upon death (maybe this is easier magic than the full rhaegar glamor staying on after death). We are unable to see the identity of this third person, though we do see thick black blood. It could be just for JD’s unidentifiable corpse face, but the black blood could symbolize the combo of red and black which connects this to targs i.e Rhaegar.

 

So we have many of the aspects of the Battle of the Trident mirror Arya’s experience at the trident. These similarities suggest that we are being misled about the Battle of the Trident and that perhaps the dragon we are led to believe was killed, actually wasn’t. We also have this character Jon Darry who has virtually no screen time or info about him and his death, despite being one of Rhaegar’s closest and most loyal friend. Could it be that Rhaegar actually named his son after Jon, for the sacrifice JD made in Rhaegar’s place?

 

I know this theory leaves a ton of gaps that I do plan to address in a more in depth theory of the entire plot, but I thought I’d share my thoughts on this particular section on it now.

 

Also I decided not to touch on the quiet isle here as I haven’t really fully flushed out my ideas on it. Could the Elder Brother and/or Brother Narbert be prince lewyn and/or JD. Darry is the last name mentioned of the corpses’ they bury side by side. And the hound being there as gravedigger further relates it to the resurrection arc, as grouped together in Brans first vision (with Jaime, who’s in the same resurrection situation metaphorically). Add this all to them waiting for the seventh ruby and there’s a lot to process.

 

Let me know what you think!

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Can we put together a list of people who could be Rheagar? The first person I would suggest would be Jaqen H'ghar.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Sensenmenn said:

Can we put together a list of people who could be Rheagar? The first person I would suggest would be Jaqen H'ghar.

Please no. Threads like this have enough trolls complaining and making stupid jokes about all the secret identity theories, I'd rather not invite it.

that being said I think Mance is the only likely candidate, with the tEB and quiet isle harpist being slight possibilities.

Edited by Aegon VII
Added 2nd part

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Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last
breath murmured a woman’s name.

Jon Darry wasn't a prince, something difficult to attribute to wordplay or metaphor. However, Lewyn Martell, also a member of the King's Guard that died at the Trident, WAS a prince. He was a prince AND he had a lover (in other words, a woman whose name he might murmur as he died)

That said, even with the more appropriate stand-in, I still don't care for this hypothesis. Giving Dany a vision of some random dude dying in the "daughter of death" quatrain makes the quatrain pretty meaningless.

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2 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Jon Darry wasn't a prince, something difficult to attribute to wordplay or metaphor. However, Lewyn Martell, also a member of the King's Guard that died at the Trident, WAS a prince. He was a prince AND he had a lover (in other words, a woman whose name he might murmur as he died)

That said, even with the more appropriate stand-in, I still don't care for this hypothesis. Giving Dany a vision of some random dude dying in the "daughter of death" quatrain makes the quatrain pretty meaningless.

One thought would be that it's the same vision rhaegar saw when he was young that led him to putting this all in motion to begin with. I definitely agree this theory still has some hiccups and parts that don't fit 100% 

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What purpose would Rhaegar even presently have in the story?

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Posted (edited)

Reading all those quotes between Robert and Ned didn't give me the impression Rhaegar is alive. Simply that Robert wished he could kill him again and again and again. 

 

That quote about the 3 shadows people read too far into all the time. The Hound and Sansa, Ned and Jamie, Gregor and Arya have all come and gone already. 

 

The bit about the visor full of blood though seems to point to a future event that hasn't yet happened. A redemption arc for the Hound and Jamie fighting unGregor would be my guess. 

Edited by Helikzhan
details

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, PCK said:

What purpose would Rhaegar even presently have in the story?

Rhaegar originally planned to reemerge whether or not the targs won at the Trident. His plans changed when betrayed by Tywin, or the shadowcat as he's named in Mance's cloak story. So after his family is murdered and lyanna dies in childbirth he really has no options. If he was at the tower with Lyanna and struck a deal with Ned, Howand, Oswell and Arthur (Don't have a theory I like for hightower atm, I know some think he's Dayne or Giantsbane but I don't see it) it may have been that Ned raises his son and he goes and takes to the wall to take the black with Arthur (or Arthur joins at a separate time). Rhaegar was aware of the threat of the others so him going to the wall was for a purpose, not just as a punishment. He goes to the wall to begin his mission of trying to stop the others, glamoring himself to look like Mance (who may or may not have been another person). He checks in on his son Jon from time to time until he knows that he must desert to unite the wildlings and get any magic type artifacts that would help against the others. He succeeds in uniting the wildlings, then allows Jon into his camp to show him that wildlings are normal people. Mance works to get the wildlings south of the wall. Mance is given his mission to rescue Arya but he has another ploy in mind. He uses Rowan to ally with the Umbers whom already are allied with the Manderlys. Mance wrote the PL to get Jon to come to WF with wildlings so that Jon would be in the most powerful position possible, and therefore most able to help the realm against the others. Rhaegar has been working since childhood to fulfill prophecy and defend the realm. Oh this would fit nicely with Jon being lightbringer with Rhaegar being AA.

Edited by Aegon VII
sp.

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When Jon Snow goes to treat with him a desperate Mance in his most honest moment explains his history to Jon and why he and the other Free Folk need to pass the Wall. If he lies at all in this speech it pretty much ruins the character of Mance Rayder and all he stand for in the series.

"I never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne. My birth is as low as a man's can get, no Septon ever smeared my head with oils." Mance Rayder

This speech in my mind in why Mance can't be Rhaegar or Arthur.

Mance Rayder's Free folk Speech
 

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So Robert couldn't recognise his own cousin?

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No.

You think Rhaegar's face was unrecognizable? Well, why the hell nobody has mentioned that ever? When Prince Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition, we were told about it. Because it was an important point. Nothing for Rhaegar, though. And if glamor was used, then using glamor to keep dead guy looking like another guy is an element not introduced in the story. No, not Rattleshirt, conveniently his death coincided with his cremation. And keeping Rattleshirt looking like Mance Rayder required a sorceress present on site, and it cost her dearly.

As for the "Darry is the only one house named the same as their family keep" - ignoring the fact that you make a huge leap from there to "it must mean something, and here's what it means", your premise has also the virtue of being patently false. After House Clegane of Clegane's Keep, House Casterly of Casterly Rock, House Ashford of Ashford and House Crakehall of Crakehall, I got bored and stopped counting.

We were told, plain and simple, that Jon Snow was named by Ned. Had your theory been true, GRRM would have all the reasons in the world to say "...Jon Snow by his father".

Midst sounds like mist, and Bloodraven is "heavily associated" with mist? No and no. "The midst" (usually: "in the midst") is simply used everywhere where the narrator feels the need to be formal, poetic or maybe pretentious. Especially "The World of Ice and Fire", where your quote comes from, strongly prefers "midst" over the more plain "middle" (the latter appearing but three times, where "midst" simply couldn't fit; like "middle wall" or "middle brother"). And "mist" appears near Bloodraven in the text only once or twice. Bloodraven is heavily associated with a thousand things and one, and mist is not one of them.

Bottom line, nothing to it. It's an assumption, based on countless minor assumptions, and auxiliary false statements. And, worse still, it doesn't even lead to any cool conclusion.

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I dunno about OP's theory, don't buy it. But if he was Mance Rayder..... wouldn't someone, anyone have noticed? When he came to Winterfell as the Bard? When he's captured on the wall? Nothing from Stannis? Surely he and BenJen crossed paths? Nothing? No one? I like Ja'qen, if he's still alive. But he's not.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

No.

You think Rhaegar's face was unrecognizable? Well, why the hell nobody has mentioned that ever? When Prince Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition, we were told about it. Because it was an important point. Nothing for Rhaegar, though. And if glamor was used, then using glamor to keep dead guy looking like another guy is an element not introduced in the story. No, not Rattleshirt, conveniently his death coincided with his cremation. And keeping Rattleshirt looking like Mance Rayder required a sorceress present on site, and it cost her dearly.

As for the "Darry is the only one house named the same as their family keep" - ignoring the fact that you make a huge leap from there to "it must mean something, and here's what it means", your premise has also the virtue of being patently false. After House Clegane of Clegane's Keep, House Casterly of Casterly Rock, House Ashford of Ashford and House Crakehall of Crakehall, I got bored and stopped counting.

We were told, plain and simple, that Jon Snow was named by Ned. Had your theory been true, GRRM would have all the reasons in the world to say "...Jon Snow by his father".

Midst sounds like mist, and Bloodraven is "heavily associated" with mist? No and no. "The midst" (usually: "in the midst") is simply used everywhere where the narrator feels the need to be formal, poetic or maybe pretentious. Especially "The World of Ice and Fire", where your quote comes from, strongly prefers "midst" over the more plain "middle" (the latter appearing but three times, where "midst" simply couldn't fit; like "middle wall" or "middle brother"). And "mist" appears near Bloodraven in the text only once or twice. Bloodraven is heavily associated with a thousand things and one, and mist is not one of them.

Bottom line, nothing to it. It's an assumption, based on countless minor assumptions, and auxiliary false statements. And, worse still, it doesn't even lead to any cool conclusion.

This.  Rhaegar is supposed to be the Beau Ideal of a Knight, of Western Chivalry.  His fatal flaw, like Lancelot's in the Arthurian stories, is that he fell in love (or perhaps in Rhaegar's case lust) with the wrong woman.  Great Knights like Ser Arthur Dayne and Barristan the Bold look up to Rhaegar.  And yet so many people seem to think him capable of such un-Heroic acts, getting others to fight and die in his place being just one of the unchivalric acts to lay at his door.  And if Mance =Rhaegar it not only takes away the very meaningful story that GRRM has developed for the Free Folk but once again it diminishes Rhaegar's. 

Edited by Byfort of Corfe

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5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

No.

You think Rhaegar's face was unrecognizable? Well, why the hell nobody has mentioned that ever? When Prince Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition, we were told about it. Because it was an important point. Nothing for Rhaegar, though.

Jaime comments on how crows feasted on Rhaegar. It is a common theme that crows devour corpses after a battle, and they usually go for the head head and eyes first. Aegon's face is mentioned because he was presented before a court and because he was a baby, death by face being crushed in is significant, especially when considering if he could still be alive. For Rhaegar crows eating his face would not be very noteworthy (though it is noted). Jaime already said crows eat him, are you saying we would need a separate comment saying this was done to the point of being unrecognizable? we know so little about these events to begin with Rhaegar's face being unrecognizable due to crows eating it is not something that would need to be spelled out to us.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And if glamor was used, then using glamor to keep dead guy looking like another guy is an element not introduced in the story. No, not Rattleshirt, conveniently his death coincided with his cremation. And keeping Rattleshirt looking like Mance Rayder required a sorceress present on site, and it cost her dearly.

 RS was also being burned alive which could add to the difficulty of maintaining a glamor. Between Jaime commenting on the crows eating Rhaegar and the possibility of a glamor, it is quite possible that JD dies in Rhaegar's armor and is not able to be identified afterwards. Especially if Rhaegar is better at glamors than Mel.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

As for the "Darry is the only one house named the same as their family keep"

That's not how I remember phrasing it, from my OP

 

"Another thing to note is that House Darry resides at the Darry. I don’t know of any other houses who’s seat is the same as their last name. Draws attention to Darry the person=Darry the castle, their highborn and castle being conflated. Their sigil is the plowman and the apartments where they sleep are called the Plowman’s keep. They are very straightforward in their naming/identity, whereas this theory is suggesting JD embraces the exact opposite by assuming Rhaegar’s identity at the trident. "

 

So, thank you for giving a couple of other houses who are in the same position that I had not considered. This would change my statement to, "there are very few houses who's name is the same as their castle" It still has the same significance, just to a slightly lesser extent. The castle and family have the same name which connects them in the readers mind.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

- ignoring the fact that you make a huge leap from there to "it must mean something, and here's what it means",

Again, all I said was, "Draws attention to Darry the person=Darry the castle, their highborn and castle being conflated."  It's a simple observation that the two concepts are conflated. This in addition to their keep being named exactly what it is, plowman's keep, are two things in which the Darry's naming and identification is very straightforward, which would contrast the idea of him dying under a false identity as I mentioned.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

your premise has also the virtue of being patently false. After House Clegane of Clegane's Keep, House Casterly of Casterly Rock, House Ashford of Ashford and House Crakehall of Crakehall, I got bored and stopped counting.

So no, this premise is not false. I overlooked a few examples of lords sharing their name with their castles but it still quite rare and would still be viewed as significant if Darry died as Rhaegar.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

We were told, plain and simple, that Jon Snow was named by Ned. Had your theory been true, GRRM would have all the reasons in the world to say "...Jon Snow by his father".

This is pretty insignificant, especially if Rhaegar and Ned were both there when it came time to name. Either way though, I would expect there to be some half truths surrounding the birth of and naming of Jon, as his secret identity is the center of the story. And if not, the name was kind of just an added connection, the rest of the parallels mentioned still exist without it.

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Midst sounds like mist, and Bloodraven is "heavily associated" with mist? No and no. "The midst" (usually: "in the midst") is simply used everywhere where the narrator feels the need to be formal, poetic or maybe pretentious. Especially "The World of Ice and Fire", where your quote comes from, strongly prefers "midst" over the more plain "middle" (the latter appearing but three times, where "midst" simply couldn't fit; like "middle wall" or "middle brother"). And "mist" appears near Bloodraven in the text only once or twice. Bloodraven is heavily associated with a thousand things and one, and mist is not one of them.

I disagree, as I said WOIAF using this term is a very small note overall so it too is pretty insignificant, but to say that BR isn't heavily associated with mist is incorrect IMO.

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have?’ the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King’s Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist.

We see him glamor as Maynard Plumm, and Mormont's Raven IMO shows BR wargs animals as well. With 2/3 being true it makes sense to assume the 3rd is most likely true as well.

Next we have Bran's 3EC dream from the chapter IMMEDIATELY following Lady's execution.

The ground was so far below him he could barely make it out through the grey mists that whirled around him, but he could feel how fast he was falling, and he knew what was waiting for him down there.

It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice.

A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden.

The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. "What are you doing to me?" he asked the crow, tearful. Teaching you how to fly.

Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes. "What are you doing?" he shrieked. The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil,..

We can debate how heavy of an association this is, but I think the evidence is there to warrant calling BR and mist "heavily associated"

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Bottom line, nothing to it. It's an assumption, based on countless minor assumptions, and auxiliary false statements. And, worse still, it doesn't even lead to any cool conclusion.

I view the parallels between the events at the Battle of the Trident and Lady's execution as having enough similarities to be noteworthy, especially given that the latter happens in Darry while Jon Darry is a prime candidate for a Rhaegar armor swap. If you think these supposed parallels don't exist or are insignificant so be it.

 

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Yeah, nah.

I probably should have made this more clear but I realize this is heavy tinfoil. The main point here was to explore the similarities that exist between the two scenes at the trident if in fact there was some trickery going on with Rhaegar's death, and how those relate to Darry. Food for thought, not trying to make any converts here.

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14 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.'

This going off the topic but this shows the practicality of Ser Jorah.  The man is practical.  It is too bad he brought financial ruin upon himself to please Lynesse.  But if you really think about it, isn't Jorah the kind of man that today's woman would dream about?  A man ready to please them and go through enormous trouble to make them happy.  In that sense, Jorah is the modern, sensitive male.  

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11 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Jaime comments on how crows feasted on Rhaegar. It is a common theme that crows devour corpses after a battle, and they usually go for the head head and eyes first.

A question, then: do you image the crows feasting on Rhagar's face before, or after they took off his helmet? If after, then how come nobody noticed that under the helmet there was a wrong dude, and if before, then where did the superpowered crows with steel beaks come from?

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50 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A question, then: do you image the crows feasting on Rhagar's face before, or after they took off his helmet? If after, then how come nobody noticed that under the helmet there was a wrong dude, and if before, then where did the superpowered crows with steel beaks come from?

Good question. Let's remember that this whole theory is predicated on BR sending Rhaegar help through dreams/ GoHH. Let's say the glamor ended as soon as JD died, it very well could have just been the plan that they bleached JD's hair and then BR cleans up his face after he dies to conceal the switcheroo. Concerning how the crows got in, even if they weren't warged by BR there's a great chance they could get in his helm and devour his face. A wild animal after food is pretty efficient at getting to it. I would assume most styles of helmet would allow enough entry to mess up a face with the birds just trying every entry point and wiggling it around. Once we add them being warged I think it's pretty easy to believe BR got in there and devoured some face. nom nom nom

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52 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A question, then: do you image the crows feasting on Rhagar's face before, or after they took off his helmet? If after, then how come nobody noticed that under the helmet there was a wrong dude, and if before, then where did the superpowered crows with steel beaks come from?

very nice question. But this theory is simply stupid. Look how much of the text you're going to overthink in order to make this theory barely "work"

 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."
"You did," Ned reminded him.
"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

“Well take heart, father; at least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead.”

 He simply despised him and wanted to kill him several times. The parallel between the wolfs doesn't make any sense because it's said on the books that they KNEW that the right wolf was on the run, they simply needed to kill one wolf so Joff wouldn't be mad at the starks. That's why they killed the wrong wolf. They knew.

 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

“When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.”

Every single KG needed to obey, so it doesn't add anything to the theory

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

The hound introducing the body as “her little pet” leads ned and the reader to believe the corpse is a wolf. We are being purposely misled though and a wolf was not slain here, it was a lesser person (to be crude). Why would grrm mislead us in this way? To show that at the BoT we are led to believe a Dragon was killed when in fact it was a lesser person. We also have the cloak concealing the identity of the corpse, in the same way Rhaegar’s cloak and armor would have concealed the identity of JD’s corpse.

Stop this BS parallels. Not every single sentence in the book is a parallel from another sentence. Those scenes are not correlated. And as the "little pet" the butcher boy was like a pet around Arya, following her everywhere and doing as told.

 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Lady’s death is offscreen. Seems odd, as we’re in Ned’s POV and he skips over the execution itself. Reminds us of the BotT and Rhaegar’s death, which was offscreen as well.

 

 

OF COURSE IT WAS OFFSCREEN BECAUSE THE BOOKS AREN'T ABOUT THE FUCKING REBELLION AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

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Posted (edited)

I find it entirely ridiculous that Rheagar or whoever was pretending to be him could not only command a battle but also die FIGHTING THE ENEMY COMMANDER and not have their face revealed. It's not like he was some pleb that died in in some random place in the battlefield or even just died in a press of men, he died front and centre fighting Robert Baratheon one on one.  

Honestly if a lot of these crackpots came true I'd start to consider GRRM a hack writer. 

Also Jaime talking about crows is likely just poetic licence. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

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