Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

One problem (among many) I have with RT=MR is: does Melisandre not notice that the man she's casting a glamour on is already glamoured? Because Mance looks nothing like Rhaegar so he must already be wearing one, right? You'd think that that might interfere with Mel's magic, but strangely it's never mentioned.

LOL!

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

One problem (among many) I have with RT=MR is: does Melisandre not notice that the man she's casting a glamour on is already glamoured? Because Mance looks nothing like Rhaegar so he must already be wearing one, right? You'd think that that might interfere with Mel's magic, but strangely it's never mentioned.

Every couple of pages someone posts some little tidbit that should render this thread null and void, yet it keeps going. It's like logic and rationality have no place in fan fic 

[Viking]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:51 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jonothor's Body was found. We know he was dead, the same as the prince. 

Source? I've been operating under the assumption that Darry is hte only one of Aerys' 7 that is completely unaccounted for. 

Selmy and Lannister survive

Dayne, Hightower and Whent die at the tower of joy

Martell dies at the trident

Darry manages to not be discussed by anybody

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 minutes ago, Viking said:

Source? I've been operating under the assumption that Darry is hte only one of Aerys' 7 that is completely unaccounted for. 

Selmy and Lannister survive

Dayne, Hightower and Whent die at the tower of joy

Martell dies at the trident

Darry manages to not be discussed by anybody

From the World of Ice and Fire:
“The battle at the ford was fierce, and many lives were lost in the fray. Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne. But the most important death was yet to come.”

Darry was never "unaccounted" for.  He was a King's guard in white Armor and he died on the trident. The only reason there is a story behind Martell is because Ser Lyn Corbray took his house's ancestral blade from his dad's corpse and killed an already wounded and near death Martell.   If Darry had been unaccounted for, That would be a story. 

[Viking]

On 5/9/2017 at 3:20 AM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

@Aegon VII Dude, sorry but, I already said and other people have pointed out many things that your crackpot does wrong. So far I've seen little to no people considering Rhaegar as Mance. It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar leave everything behind to go beyond the wall?

Because of prophecy about the prince who was promised. He abandons the attempt at the next great council when he thinks lyanna is the vessel and after (or even before) the trident he decides  that going north will help the prophecy happen. 

 

Why would he left the woman he supposedly loved or at least beared his aleggdly child behind to go beyond the wall?

Because of prophecy. He may have loved his women and his children but his life was mediated by prophecy and his belief about his relationship to the prince who was promised. 

 

 

Why would he sent a KG to die as him?

Because that's what KG are for. They are sworn to die for the king and some of Aerys' 7 might have already considered Rhaegar to be their King. 

 

 

Why would Robert doesn't notice that he was not fighting Rhaegar?

Presumably the same reason nobody noticed that Rhaegar wasn't the man in the suite of armour at the tourney of Harrenhall. He was covered in armour and he was identified by his armour, like patrocolus being identified as achilles in the illiad, not by his face, which was covered by steel. 

 

 

Why would Martin make such complex and subtle parallels as you said and with what purpose on the great scheme of things?

To do the prophecy reveal, the hero with lineage and purpose, for a passing of the torch, for a redemption of Ned and his honour, For the twist at the end, for the "Jon, I am your father" star warsey stuff Alfie Allen promised us. 

 

 

Why would anyone at Rhaegar's side notice that Rhaegar was acting strange (because even with glamour you need to be perfect so no one notices that you are not the person you are glamoured)? What Rhaegar is trying to acomplish beyond the wall?

To father the Prince who was Promised and to prepare the world for the battle for the dawn. 

 

How would Rhaegar infiltrate himself as Mance Ryder? How Rhaegar knew about this man?

for example, MR is already at the wall when Rhaegar arrives with Darry seeking to join the NW. Lord Commander Quorgyle is worried that Robert will persue him north regardless of the NW oath, Mance looks to out Rhaegar as a Targ in exchange for release from his vows he dies/is killed to keep the secret and Mance uses the glamour he used at harrenhall and the trident to appear to be Mance. He eventually is frustrated by this and gives it up escaping north claiming to be mance and a deserter. 

 

That's so many questions that I really don't think have any awsers to. And I'm not thinking them all. And how much text does it really have to support all the things Rhaegar is trying to do is beyond me. But if you are different and has more awsers I'm willing to listen. One more time.

The main reasons I think Mance might be Rhaegar in disguise is that it resolves a character arc for both him and jon. Mance is introduced at Robert's visit to Winterfell. Mance is what Robert and Ned talk about when they aren't talking about Lyanna and Jon Arryn. From what I gathered the winterfell visit is the first thing martin wrote after he conceived of the first two scenes with the execution and the finding of the dire wolf pups. Mance is more than just a trickster or James Bond type and that is why I think he will be vital to the final conclusion of the battle for the dawn. For all the things Mance is most of the details about him are superfluous. One of the best arguments against MR=RT that I have seen is that MR=RT diminishes the wildlings and their story; this is also the strongest argument for MR=RT, Mance makes little sense as a character unless he has a deeper meaning. If you make Tormund Giantsbane the leader of the wildlings and make Mance his sneaky lieutenant you get the same results without all the narrative acrobatics and book real estate if Mance is just Mance. 

[Viking]

14 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have always found it odd that we don't know how Jon Darry died. Rhaegar and the rest of the KG we are told who killed them and how. Jon... nothing you would think killing a KG would be remembered Lyn Corbray has been crowing about it for years.

I doubt the whole glamoured armor thing is real but I am partial to thinking Jon Darry is alive. Most likely as the Elder Brother.

If MR=RT I think Darry is Qorin Halfhand. He would not have abandoned Rhaegar if Rhaegar were still alive. If this is the case this explains why Qorin picks Jon to join him on his ranging and it gives some significance the first Jon and Ygritt capture scene as a test of character and prophecy and even more significance to the Rattleshirt and Ygritt confrontation about letting Jon get to Mance. If you then appreciate that Ygritt was there waiting for Qorin and Jon to take Jon to see Mance who might wish to find out if Jon is his son and possibly the pwp then that gives a whole new meaning to "You know nothing Jon Snow."

[Viking]

3 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

One problem (among many) I have with RT=MR is: does Melisandre not notice that the man she's casting a glamour on is already glamoured? Because Mance looks nothing like Rhaegar so he must already be wearing one, right? You'd think that that might interfere with Mel's magic, but strangely it's never mentioned.

Well that's because after leaving the wall he is no longer glamoured but he does have a ruby. All he really needs to do is to get some brown hairwash from the tyroshi traders/slavers and voila his silver hair looks like grey roots as he is described as. His purple eyes can look sufficiently brown, especially if nobody is expecting anything more. Apart from that he's basically a middle aged version of Rhaegar. Nobody thinks about him looking like rhaegar because nobody who has met rhaegar has met mance... apart from possibly aemon, who is blind. 

[maudisdottir]

Alfie never promised any "Star Warsey" stuff. He said Jon Snow had a "Luke Skywalker" situation, which could just mean he was raised by his uncle unaware of his true father's identity and his own importance in the wars to come. That needn't have anything to do with Mance/Rhaegar.

People keep misquoting him as saying "Luke and Leia" as evidence for Jon and Meera being twins, and now it's being twisted again to justify Rhaegar = Mance.

[Viking]

24 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

From the World of Ice and Fire:
“The battle at the ford was fierce, and many lives were lost in the fray. Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne. But the most important death was yet to come.”

Darry was never "unaccounted" for.  He was a King's guard in white Armor and he died on the trident. The only reason there is a story behind Martell is because Ser Lyn Corbray took his house's ancestral blade from his dad's corpse and killed an already wounded and near death Martell.   If Darry had been unaccounted for, That would be a story. 

so in Maester Yandel's POV "book" it says that. This is not as well attested as Lyn Corbray's killing of Prince Luwyn, but then again the sources for that are Lyn Corbray and Petyr Baelish. 

 

The whole thing relating to the battle of hte trident is a problem for any MR=RT theory and any MR=RT theory must rely on some account of that battle having been fabricated or untrue. Lyn Corbrays story is his justification for having the sword and his morals are in question. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

30 minutes ago, Viking said:

so in Maester Yandel's POV "book" it says that. This is not as well attested as Lyn Corbray's killing of Prince Luwyn, but then again the sources for that are Lyn Corbray and Petyr Baelish. 

No, In George, Linda and Elio's book it says that. 

31 minutes ago, Viking said:

The whole thing relating to the battle of hte trident is a problem for any MR=RT theory 

that is because Rhaegar is dead and thus cannot in any way be Mance

32 minutes ago, Viking said:

and any MR=RT theory must rely on some account of that battle having been fabricated or untrue. 

the theory must also find a way to rationalize how none of the targ knights that took the black after the rebellion recognize their prince at the wall, or any number of things that make the theory impossible, like the author saying the prince is dead and cremated, or how the prince being alive would do nothing for the story or even make it sappy and crappy. 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

Well that's because after leaving the wall he is no longer glamoured but he does have a ruby. All he really needs to do is to get some brown hairwash from the tyroshi traders/slavers and voila his silver hair looks like grey roots as he is described as. His purple eyes can look sufficiently brown, especially if nobody is expecting anything more. Apart from that he's basically a middle aged version of Rhaegar. Nobody thinks about him looking like rhaegar because nobody who has met rhaegar has met mance... apart from possibly aemon, who is blind. 

Did Mance also have some kind of knee surgery to reduce his height? And some plastic surgery to reduce his beauty to that of a sharp face? Also, I'd point out that at least Ser Alliser has probably seen Rhaegar and Mance; he was at King's Landing when Tywin sacked the city. That was why he was sent to the Wall in the first place. Along with someone else.

Edit: Jaremy Rykker was the other man sent to the Watch by Tywin. He may also have seen Rhaegar.

[Nevets]

Yep, Alliser Thorne was probably quite familiar with Rhaegar and would likely recognize him.  Not to mention Stannis and probably a fair number of men in his army at the Wall.  Remember, Rhaegar died only about 15 years back, so there are probably quite a few men who would be able to recognize him.  Considering this, and all of the other problems with it, I think it is time to put a stake through this one.

[Ygrain]

 

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Every couple of pages someone posts some little tidbit that should render this thread null and void, yet it keeps going. It's like logic and rationality have no place in fan fic 

Like:

Q: What happened with Rhaegar's body?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated.

9 hours ago, Viking said:

All he really needs to do is to get some brown hairwash from the tyroshi traders/slavers and voila his silver hair looks like grey roots as he is described as.

Except that this is not the way the hair is described: "long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey" is the description. It says absolutely nothing about hair roots, and if you have ever seen a person with dyed hair who don't apply the dye as often as they should, you would know, and anyone else with two brain cells to rub together, that the hair is frikking dyed and it's not their natural colour. Stop passing off unbased fanfiction for fact, I recall this very issue from earlier and it's hardly discussing in good faith if you claim for fact something that has been proven wrong.

 

9 hours ago, Viking said:

His purple eyes can look sufficiently brown, especially if nobody is expecting anything more.

Only if all the people around are colourblind.

9 hours ago, Viking said:

Apart from that he's basically a middle aged version of Rhaegar.

People can lose a couple of centimetres at an old age due to the spine sinking,  but they don't shrink to middling height if they had been tall. For Rhaegar to be of middling height at a middle age, he would have had to be darthmauled and get shorter prosthetics.

9 hours ago, Viking said:

Nobody thinks about him looking like rhaegar because nobody who has met rhaegar has met mance... apart from possibly aemon, who is blind. 

Ah. So GRRM doesn't describe a character's appearance truthfully because the other characters don't know what he is supposed to look like? Really?

9 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Alfie never promised any "Star Warsey" stuff. He said Jon Snow had a "Luke Skywalker" situation, which could just mean he was raised by his uncle unaware of his true father's identity and his own importance in the wars to come. That needn't have anything to do with Mance/Rhaegar.

We might also add that Luke's father is revealed to be the villain, and Rhaegar is portrayed in the "official" version as the villain, as well. If Jon learns prior having a chance to hear the other side of the story, his reaction to the reveal will be much like Luke's.

[Viking]

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, In George, Linda and Elio's book it says that. 

seriously, the whole book is a POV. 

16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

that is because Rhaegar is dead and thus cannot in any way be Mance

the theory must also find a way to rationalize how none of the targ knights that took the black after the rebellion recognize their prince at the wall, or any number of things that make the theory impossible, like the author saying the prince is dead and cremated, or how the prince being alive would do nothing for the story or even make it sappy and crappy. 

Yes, any RT=MR theory requires part or all of the Battle of the Trident narrative to be misunderstood or mendacious. I can see how Robert or Dany might misunderstand a part, I can see how Lyn Corbray or Littlefinger might lie about Corbrays part. Given how so many other accepted truths are also based on misinformation and lies I don't think it should be ruled out. Martin has opened up multiple ways for Rhaegar to have survived the battle, he might have been replaced by a glamoured ally, his body might have floated downstream to be rescued at the quiet isle etc. etc. 

[Viking]

16 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Did Mance also have some kind of knee surgery to reduce his height? And some plastic surgery to reduce his beauty to that of a sharp face? Also, I'd point out that at least Ser Alliser has probably seen Rhaegar and Mance; he was at King's Landing when Tywin sacked the city. That was why he was sent to the Wall in the first place. Along with someone else.

Edit: Jaremy Rykker was the other man sent to the Watch by Tywin. He may also have seen Rhaegar.

he had 16 years of hard living to make those changes, plus Ser Jaremy, the Targ loyalist might be one of the guys covering up for Rhaegar or he might have not noticed or just dismisssed that scruffy half wildling ranger who barely spent any time at castle black. 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

he had 16 years of hard living to make those changes, plus Ser Jaremy, the Targ loyalist might be one of the guys covering up for Rhaegar or he might have not noticed or just dismisssed that scruffy half wildling ranger who barely spent any time at castle black. 

Hard living does not make your spine shrink (maybe if you are extremely malnourished, you'd lose some height?).

Is Ser Alliser also covering for him? And Mance Rayder has a backstory; that of a wildling child taken on a raid by the NW. Stannis also spent a lot of time with Mance - Stannis is another man who may recognise Rhaegar.

As Ygrain pointed out, purple eyes do not look brown. fAegon has to dye his hair blue to help make his eyes appear blue instead of purple; Rhaegar's eyes were an even deeper shade of purple than fAegon's. He's not hiding them. And no, I don't buy the argument that nobody sees it because nobody expects it. Jon, when he meets Mance, thinks that one of Tormund or Styr are Mance; why? Because they look more kingly. Jon was looking for kingly features when he met Mance. Purple eyes are a pretty fricking huge detail to miss.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Hard living does not make your spine shrink (maybe if you are extremely malnourished, you'd lose some height?).

Is Ser Alliser also covering for him? And Mance Rayder has a backstory; that of a wildling child taken on a raid by the NW. Stannis also spent a lot of time with Mance - Stannis is another man who may recognise Rhaegar.

As Ygrain pointed out, purple eyes do not look brown. fAegon has to dye his hair blue to help make his eyes appear blue instead of purple; Rhaegar's eyes were an even deeper shade of purple than fAegon's. He's not hiding them. And no, I don't buy the argument that nobody sees it because nobody expects it. Jon, when he meets Mance, thinks that one of Tormund or Styr are Mance; why? Because they look more kingly. Jon was looking for kingly features when he met Mance. Purple eyes are a pretty fricking huge detail to miss.

Ygrain also pointed out that GRRM said flat out that Rhaegar's body was cremated, which makes all the mental gymnastics of Rhaegar suriving the battle and being someone else just that - mental gymnastics.

[WSmith84]

8 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ygrain also pointed out that GRRM said flat out that Rhaegar's body was cremated, which makes all the mental gymnastics of Rhaegar suriving the battle and being someone else just that - mental gymnastics.

Oh yeah. But people tend to ignore SSMs if they contradict their pet theory, so I don't even bother referencing them.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Viking said:

seriously, the whole book is a POV. 

Yes, any RT=MR theory requires part or all of the Battle of the Trident narrative to be misunderstood or mendacious. I can see how Robert or Dany might misunderstand a part, I can see how Lyn Corbray or Littlefinger might lie about Corbrays part. Given how so many other accepted truths are also based on misinformation and lies I don't think it should be ruled out. Martin has opened up multiple ways for Rhaegar to have survived the battle, he might have been replaced by a glamoured ally, his body might have floated downstream to be rescued at the quiet isle etc. etc. 

And the great other MIGHT  be the bastard child of Megatron and Optimus Prime. The Author did not write anything specifically saying that it wold be impossible, so we should entertain the theory. I mean, it is just as valid as the MR=RT with just as much supporting text and less mights than you have in your reply here. 

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Tinfoil aside, I feel like Robert would at least want to visually verify the identity of his hated rival after he slew him, injured or not.