Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Like:

Q: What happened with Rhaegar's body?

GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated.

There you go again with your logic 

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that this is not the way the hair is described: "long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey" is the description. It says absolutely nothing about hair roots, and if you have ever seen a person with dyed hair who don't apply the dye as often as they should, you would know, and anyone else with two brain cells to rub together, that the hair is frikking dyed and it's not their natural colour. Stop passing off unbased fanfiction for fact, I recall this very issue from earlier and it's hardly discussing in good faith if you claim for fact something that has been proven wrong.

 

Wait a minute, Hair Dye beyond the wall may not be as high quality as one may find in a metropolitan area. Also, the salons beyond the wall have trouble keeping workers for a long time. That is Mancegar's hair dye problem 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And the great other MIGHT  be the bastard child of Megatron and Optimus Prime. The Author did not write anything specifically saying that it wold be impossible, so we should entertain the theory. I mean, it is just as valid as the MR=RT with just as much supporting text and less mights than you have in your reply here. 

That clearly isn't possible. Megatron and Optimus Prime have a leather shop down in Dorne.

[Trigger Warning]

You know what always baffles me is not the various crackpots that people come up but how much they vigorously defend them despite having little to no evidence. STAY AWAY FROM MY CHILD! 

[Dorian Martell's son]

37 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That clearly isn't possible. Megatron and Optimus Prime have a leather shop down in Dorne.

but they sell leather goods beyond the wall obvs. The book doesn't say they don't so it must be a perfectly valid assumption/theory 

 

29 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

You know what always baffles me is not the various crackpots that people come up but how much they vigorously defend them despite having little to no evidence. STAY AWAY FROM MY CHILD! 

Don't forget the preponderance of evidence and text against their Cracky McCrackerton Pot theories 

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

but they sell leather goods beyond the wall obvs. The book doesn't say they don't so it must be a perfectly valid assumption/theory 

If they didn't sell beyond the wall, they'd be out of business in a week's time.

[Viking]

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Hard living does not make your spine shrink (maybe if you are extremely malnourished, you'd lose some height?).

Is Ser Alliser also covering for him? And Mance Rayder has a backstory; that of a wildling child taken on a raid by the NW. Stannis also spent a lot of time with Mance - Stannis is another man who may recognise Rhaegar.

As Ygrain pointed out, purple eyes do not look brown. fAegon has to dye his hair blue to help make his eyes appear blue instead of purple; Rhaegar's eyes were an even deeper shade of purple than fAegon's. He's not hiding them. And no, I don't buy the argument that nobody sees it because nobody expects it. Jon, when he meets Mance, thinks that one of Tormund or Styr are Mance; why? Because they look more kingly. Jon was looking for kingly features when he met Mance. Purple eyes are a pretty fricking huge detail to miss.

1. Yes because we know all descriptions in the book are always completely objective and never deviate, especially if you are jeyne westerling and your hips are being evaluated. 

2. Yes, because all Targaryen loyalist knights were personal intimates of Rhaegar. 

3. Stannis never met Rhaegar as far as we know. If he did he did so as a child. 

4. Aegon dyed his hair blue to make his eyes appear blue, Apparently Rhaegar couldn't have dyed his hair brown to make his eyes appear brown. 

5. Yes, Jon definitively said in his POV "Jon looked at the men in the room, disregarding their demeanour, clothing and the fact that one was acting like a bard or a singer and looked only at their eyes."

[Viking]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And the great other MIGHT  be the bastard child of Megatron and Optimus Prime. The Author did not write anything specifically saying that it wold be impossible, so we should entertain the theory. I mean, it is just as valid as the MR=RT with just as much supporting text and less mights than you have in your reply here. 

yes, this is speculation and jon MIGHT  be the son of a tavern wench. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

25 minutes ago, Viking said:

yes, this is speculation and jon MIGHT  be the son of a tavern wench. 

Yes, the one single character mystery in the first three books that is at the core of every wish for character survival and subsequent attempts to rationalize them as secretly being another character. 

[WSmith84]

32 minutes ago, Viking said:

1. Yes because we know all descriptions in the book are always completely objective and never deviate, especially if you are jeyne westerling and your hips are being evaluated. 

2. Yes, because all Targaryen loyalist knights were personal intimates of Rhaegar. 

3. Stannis never met Rhaegar as far as we know. If he did he did so as a child. 

4. Aegon dyed his hair blue to make his eyes appear blue, Apparently Rhaegar couldn't have dyed his hair brown to make his eyes appear brown. 

5. Yes, Jon definitively said in his POV "Jon looked at the men in the room, disregarding their demeanour, clothing and the fact that one was acting like a bard or a singer and looked only at their eyes."

1 - Jon himself is not particularly tall (Joffrey is taller than him) and yet he describes Mance as 'middling height.' Rhaegar is described as tall. Jon, being of average height himself, would be more inclined to describe Mance as tall. But he doesn't.

2, 3 - Obviously, I don't have evidence that Stannis, Rykker or Thorne met Rhaegar. But they might have done. And lack of evidence doesn't seem to stop the theory of Mance=Rhaegar, so I'm not sure why I'm held to that standard.

4 - Blue and purple are already similar colours. And even with his blue hair, Tyrion is still able to discern his purple eyes. Brown is not similar to purple.

5 - Jon was looking for anything (demeanour, clothes, behaviour, jewellery and so on) that might suggest a King. Hence why he thinks Styr (with his bronze armour) and Tormund (with his gold bands and ringmail) are Mance. When Mance finally reveals himself, Jon notes how unKing-like he appears, with his brown eyes, brown hair, lack of jewellery and not so intimidating stature (both height and build); Jon is paying very careful attention, and there's not a hint of a doubt about anything. Nor does Stannis, in his long talks with Mance, notice anything odd about his eyes or hair. Was someone sneaking Mance hair dye while he was held captive?

Also, it's very lucky that Mance's child wasn't born with silver hair and purple eyes. That would have been a bit of a giveaway, wouldn't it?

[Aegon VII]

On 5/8/2017 at 11:14 PM, Ygrain said:

The biggest problem with any such theory is that GRRM said "Rhaegar was cremated", in answer to what happened with Rhaegar's body. That's as straightforward as it gets. Therefore, Rhaegar cannot be poising as any character currently alive, and the supposed "textual evidence" is misinterpretation and/or wishful reading.

Ygrain, do you honestly believe the people who advocate MR=RT as a valid theory are not aware of that SSM? Do you think we just simply ignore it because it doesn't fit the theory, so we need you reminding us? Or is it possible we are well aware of what GRRM said and still find it completely possible that MR=RT. There are a number of explanations, most of which I'm fairly certain you've heard but simply choose to ignore or write off as unsatisfactory/ a leap. You may not view these explanations as valid but many of us do so, so the SSM you are referencing is not the end all be all game changer you think it is. To throw out one of the 5-7 possible explanations. Rhaegar's body is eventually cremated so GRRM wasn't lying (it would still take place after the events of the trident). The part of that SSM no one likes to bring up is how it was actually a two part question where they also asked who found the body. GRRM decided to gloss over that part of the question, as does every MR=RT dissenter who quotes the SSM as a reason to end the discussion.

On 5/9/2017 at 3:31 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

The OP reminded me of two things that I suspect have some  relation, though as yet  I haven't a clue what it might be.

The events at Ruby Ford. One being the battle and death duel of Robert's Rebellion, the second being the scene between the children at that same place in AGOT.

I have no idea the two events are related, but I'll bet GRRM had something in mind.

And that's what really led to this thread. Observing some possible parallels between the two event at the trident, and generating a theory that would help explain GRRM's intent in making said parallels.

On 5/9/2017 at 3:31 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

The second point is: rubies.

Glamourous and deceitful rubies. 

Melisandre's illusions are related to her ruby, notably  the trickery with Rattleshirt.

 

Exactly. If no significance why highlight them whenever Rhaegar's death is brought up. It seems to me rubies are associated with glamors yes but more so with one's sense of identity, which even fits with the rubies vs garnets thing and how tywin views them. Either way why draw attention to Rhaegar's identity at the trident.

On 5/11/2017 at 10:08 AM, Asshai Backwards said:

First of all, not everybody thinks RT=MR is total crackpot.  Partial, to be certain.  Nonetheless, I for one love the narrative implications denoted by the bolded questions above.  Rhaegar always saw the big picture...but not always some of the details, perhaps.  Like, for instance, he might have seen that his father was an unfit king, and thought that Robert Barratheon would be a decent stand-in while he slipped off anonymously to fight the greater battle north of the wall.  Not anticipating, of course, the chaos that would come as the Lannisters weaseled their way into power.  This is all tinfoil musing of course.

 

I think everyone who thinks MR=RT is complete crackpot and not worth talking about should read your sentiment here, as I agree 100%. To those people reading, I ask you to realize there are those of us out there whom have done just as much research on the subject as you have (if not more) and a significant number of us have come to the same conclusion as Asshai Backwards here. We enjoy considering these narrative implications and view it as a perfectly valid and feasible theory. We have already considered the same old 5-10 tired objections that get brought up during any MR=RT thread and yet we still view it as a valid theory. It's not because we're all just stupid and ignorant, so please be open to the possibility that even though you view it as impossible, MR=RT is not impossible and some of us wish to discuss theories related to it. BTW There is actually a ton of evidence to support MR=RT, as has been mentioned in other threads countless times.  Alas though, this isn't even an MR=RT thread, you people are just so intolerant of anything involving rhaegar being alive being discussed that you intrude on threads like this to act like you understand something we don't. Please, consider the possibility that it is in fact the opposite.

On 5/11/2017 at 6:04 PM, PrettyPig said:

I haven't looked specifically at the Battle of the Trident with respect to AGOT events at Ruby Ford,  but there are some nice *potential* parallels between the Arya/Mycah/Sansa/Joff scene and Lyanna's 'abduction' in the Riverlands.  I say "potential" because it requires some extrapolation of sequence of known events from the current scenario to the unknowns of the past one, but it does work. 

This is the type of response I was expecting from this thread. As I said before, not trying to convert anyone, just observing some nice parallels that hopefully one day lead to a better analysis than mine.

On 5/12/2017 at 4:07 AM, LynnS said:

I have a problem with the notion that rubies = glamors, based on Melisandre's ruby.  I think Mel's ruby is actually dragonglass from which she draws fire.  She is very familiar with the properties and uses of dragonglass when Sam reveals that he 'killed' the white walker with it.  

Quaithe is another who is familiar with it's uses when she tells Dany that the fire mage performing in square wasn't able to draw fire from dragonglass until recently.

Mance is glamored with something that glows like a ruby and he can feel the heat of it through his shackles; but when Mel breaks the glamor; the ruby goes dark.  That doesn't sound like a ruby.   So I'm doubtful that Rhaegar's rubies are anything magical.

The second problem is that Mance's history is well known both among the wildlings and the Night's Watch.  He was taken as a boy in a raid and grew up to become a man of the watch.  Not something that can be unexplained or put aside.

 

That's a nice theory about dragonglass but I think at the moment we can't deny there is a connection between rubies and glamors. As I mentioned earlier I think it's vaguer than that, and more to do with identity in general. I view some of the lines about the ToHH as evidence towards Rhaegar already having learned to glamor (or in a more vague sense, at least some form of deception that allowed him to win the joust). We have him in his ruby armor, there is a quote about him that goes like, "it seemed no lance could touch him", and then at the hands tourney, we have a lot of elements that paralell the ToHH and we also have Loras cheat. I think this supports Rhaegar having cheated and the comment about, "no lance could touch him" was due to magic.

On 5/12/2017 at 11:57 PM, Lord Wraith said:

I have always found it odd that we don't know how Jon Darry died. Rhaegar and the rest of the KG we are told who killed them and how. Jon... nothing you would think killing a KG would be remembered Lyn Corbray has been crowing about it for years.

I doubt the whole glamoured armor thing is real but I am partial to thinking Jon Darry is alive. Most likely as the Elder Brother.

Yeah we would expect there to be a little more about his death. Then again, we'd expect him to be mentioned in asoiaf more in general.

On 5/13/2017 at 6:02 AM, Ygrain said:

Not really. Battlefield is not a neatly organized game where you can always see who has scored which points. Darry may have been killed by a bunch of nobodies who had no idea who he was (white armour doesn't stay white long in a fight), or by someone who was consequently offed by someone else. There is nothing suspicious about that.

I disagree. He's a KG. He's that boss out there killing people left and right that everyone takes note of. It's of course very possible that he died and everything is as it seems, its just that the lack of info we have about it is suspect and is worth taking note of.

On 5/13/2017 at 11:16 AM, WSmith84 said:

One problem (among many) I have with RT=MR is: does Melisandre not notice that the man she's casting a glamour on is already glamoured? Because Mance looks nothing like Rhaegar so he must already be wearing one, right? You'd think that that might interfere with Mel's magic, but strangely it's never mentioned.

I would view it as a situation where Mance is more familiar with glamors by this point, so while Mel thinks she has him under her control he's just letting her think that. Evidence would be that Mel says Mance will do her bidding because of the ruby yet we have mance devising "certain ploys", bragging about being able to climb in and out of his room, and evidence suggesting he was doing so to communicate to Val. This all does not sound like someone under Mel's control.

More so than this though, I believe most likely if Rhaegar was glamored when he went to the wall to be Mance, he dropped the glamor the day he left the watch. What we see now is actually him, with maybe a bit of hair dye but that's all.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:46 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Every couple of pages someone posts some little tidbit that should render this thread null and void, yet it keeps going. It's like logic and rationality have no place in fan fic 

This is completely wrong. You deeming a theory such as MR=RT as impossible does not make it so. Please refer me to the posts that should make this thread null and void. If I had to guess, I would say they are probably the same posts I was referring to when I mentioned the same old 5-10 tired objections to MR=RT that have been brought up. They have not added anything new to the convo. We are all aware of GRRM's SSM. We know how mance's eyes, height and hair has been described. This has all been discussed ad nauseum in MR=RT threads, and yet some of us still view MR=RT as a valid theory, and wish to discuss theories that would relate to it. If you don't view MR=RT as valid, then why post here to argue against MR=RT? this thread wasn't arguing MR=RT and therefore didn't discuss the answers to the objections you've brought up.

On 5/13/2017 at 2:23 PM, Viking said:

The main reasons I think Mance might be Rhaegar in disguise is that it resolves a character arc for both him and jon.

Absolutely! Especially when you consider Aemon Steelsong as Jon's brother and Jon putting him through exactly what Ned/Rhaegar put Jon through.

 

On 5/13/2017 at 3:19 PM, WSmith84 said:

Did Mance also have some kind of knee surgery to reduce his height?

 You mean because the one description we have of Mance calls him middling height? Let's remember this is from Jon's POV inside a tent and in the same passage he calls Tormund short.  And this is after years and years of the winter's abuse north of the wall, not that far of a stretch..

On 5/13/2017 at 3:19 PM, WSmith84 said:

And some plastic surgery to reduce his beauty to that of a sharp face?

No, just the 16-17 years taking it's toll with the last 5-10 of them in the most inhospitable environment imaginable.

On 5/13/2017 at 3:19 PM, WSmith84 said:

Also, I'd point out that at least Ser Alliser has probably seen Rhaegar and Mance; he was at King's Landing when Tywin sacked the city. That was why he was sent to the Wall in the first place. Along with someone else.

People see what they expect. GRRM has hammered in how easy it is for people not to recognize others. There's multiple theories out there about this, one by tootles comes to mind off the top of my head. There is nothing to say Allister or anyone else Rhaegar knew would recognize him when he came back from North of the wall.

On 5/13/2017 at 3:19 PM, WSmith84 said:

Edit: Jaremy Rykker was the other man sent to the Watch by Tywin. He may also have seen Rhaegar.

Again, between him being glamored when he first goes to the wall, and being old when he comes back from during asoiaf, there is no reason to believe he would be recognized. Except by perhaps Maester Aemon, who let's not forget was visiting mance every single day when he was first a prisoner at the wall before Aemon left.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ygrain also pointed out that GRRM said flat out that Rhaegar's body was cremated, which makes all the mental gymnastics of Rhaegar suriving the battle and being someone else just that - mental gymnastics.

As Ygrain often does. Citing GRRM's SSM multiple times does not add anything to this discussion. Everyone is aware of the SSM and possible explanations have been provided in other threads that allow for both the SSM not to be a lie and for MR=RT.

 

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And the great other MIGHT  be the bastard child of Megatron and Optimus Prime. The Author did not write anything specifically saying that it wold be impossible, so we should entertain the theory. I mean, it is just as valid as the MR=RT with just as much supporting text and less mights than you have in your reply here. 

No, it's not. You say this like you're proving a point but you are just flat out wrong by presenting them as equatable . You among others have derailed this thread along with just about every other MR=RT thread.. Please accept that not everyone who views MR=RT as a feasible theory is completely fucking retarded. We have seen your objections and yet we have come up with satisfying answers to these objections and still view it as a valid theory. Perhaps we understand something you don't and not the other way around. I'm not saying MR=RT is correct and everything else is wrong, I'm saying MR=RT is feasible and valid and worthy of intelligent discussion without people taking it upon themselves to try to shut down the discussion.

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, Viking said:

seriously, the whole book is a POV. 

Yes, any RT=MR theory requires part or all of the Battle of the Trident narrative to be misunderstood or mendacious. I can see how Robert or Dany might misunderstand a part, I can see how Lyn Corbray or Littlefinger might lie about Corbrays part. Given how so many other accepted truths are also based on misinformation and lies I don't think it should be ruled out. Martin has opened up multiple ways for Rhaegar to have survived the battle, he might have been replaced by a glamoured ally, his body might have floated downstream to be rescued at the quiet isle etc. etc. 

This isn't just saying "you have to believe George is being cagey about one aspect of the story". In order for Mance/Rhaegar to be true, you have to believe George's own words are lying to us, about every aspect of it.

It must be tiring to read a book and not believe any of the words in it are saying what they're actually saying. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

This is completely wrong. You deeming a theory such as MR=RT as impossible does not make it so. Please refer me to the posts that should make this thread null and void. If I had to guess, I would say they are probably the same posts I was referring to when I mentioned the same old 5-10 tired objections to MR=RT that have been brought up. They have not added anything new to the convo. We are all aware of GRRM's SSM. We know how mance's eyes, height and hair has been described. This has all been discussed ad nauseum in MR=RT threads, and yet some of us still view MR=RT as a valid theory, and wish to discuss theories that would relate to it. If you don't view MR=RT as valid, then why post here to argue against MR=RT? this thread wasn't arguing MR=RT and therefore didn't discuss the answers to the objections you've brought up.

Nope. It is absolutely correct. The opposite of wrong! The theory is total BS, not because I deem it so, but because there is no support for it and it directly contradicts not only the book but the author speaking outside the book. 
Now, for the highlighted section, we are also free to continue to point out how you are wrong, over and over and over again because we want to. And because we are correct in our rebuttals of the crackpot. you are correct, the thread didn't start arguing the crackpot, but it came up in the public replies on a public thread in a public forum. If you want to discuss it with zero rebuttals, keep it to a PM. Nobody can disagree with you in the private echochamber. 

16 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

No, it's not. You say this like you're proving a point but you are just flat out wrong by presenting them as equatable . You among others have derailed this thread along with just about every other MR=RT thread.. Please accept that not everyone who views MR=RT as a feasible theory is completely fucking retarded. We have seen your objections and yet we have come up with satisfying answers to these objections and still view it as a valid theory. Perhaps we understand something you don't and not the other way around. I'm not saying MR=RT is correct and everything else is wrong, I'm saying MR=RT is feasible and valid and worthy of intelligent discussion without people taking it upon themselves to try to shut down the discussion.

Yes, it is. They are perfectly equatable with completely equal chances of being correct. Think about that before you reply again
 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

>mance's height weight and eyes don't match Rhaegar's
>mance's attittude is not very king-like
>robert didn't mind to check if he killed the man he hated the most
>brown hair + purple eyes = brown eyes (genius)
>my theory is right even with all these arguments being wrong
Dude, please stop. It's wrong, it's over, it's just a book. 

[Ser Walton]

What I fail to understand is why people think GRRM would give away plot points just because people ask him . So what if GRRM said Rhaegar was cremated "before the books are completed".  I wonder what he would have said about Theon if someone would have asked about him between books 3 and 5. 

Because authors don't like to give away their stories, especially their plot twists. 

 

So would he have said "oh he's being held and tortured by Ramsey Bolton and is also secretly Reek (THE 3RD Reek mind you, 2 were indeed secret targs....i mean secret identities.) Or would he have said a vague answer that made most people happy yet still allows his secret?

[Ser Loras The Gay]

11 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

What I fail to understand is why people think GRRM would give away plot points just because people ask him . So what if GRRM said Rhaegar was cremated "before the books are completed".  I wonder what he would have said about Theon if someone would have asked about him between books 3 and 5. 

Because authors don't like to give away their stories, especially their plot twists. 

 

So would he have said "oh he's being held and tortured by Ramsey Bolton and is also secretly Reek (THE 3RD Reek mind you, 2 were indeed secret targs....i mean secret identities.) Or would he have said a vague answer that made most people happy yet still allows his secret?

Implying MR = RT is a plot point.

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

What I fail to understand is why people think GRRM would give away plot points just because people ask him 

Because he is a nice guy and what he said is not important to the long term plot of the story.

23 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

So what if GRRM said Rhaegar was cremated "before the books are completed."

Yeah, I mean WTF does the author know about his own freakin' books? especially if it clashes with a theory about his story that I love and want to be true!

24 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

I wonder what he would have said about Theon if someone would have asked about him between books 3 and 5. 

Something along the lines of "We haven't seen the last of poor Theon."  Like when queried about Juan Snow after the stabbing, he said "So, you think he is dead do you? 

26 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

Because authors don't like to give away their stories, especially their plot twists. 

dispelling crackpot untrue theories =/= giving away their stories, especial their plot twists

28 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

So would he have said "oh he's being held and tortured by Ramsey Bolton and is also secretly Reek (THE 3RD Reek mind you, 2 were indeed secret targs....i mean secret identities.) Or would he have said a vague answer that made most people happy yet still allows his secret?

See above replies 

[Ser Walton]

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Because he is a nice guy and what he said is not important to the long term plot of the story.

Yeah, I mean WTF does the author know about his own freakin' books? especially if it clashes with a theory about his story that I love and want to be true!

Something along the lines of "We haven't seen the last of poor Theon."  Like when queried about Juan Snow after the stabbing, he said "So, you think he is dead do you? 

dispelling crackpot untrue theories =/= giving away their stories, especial their plot twists

See above replies 

It's funny but the same could be said of you.

You seem to know what's important to the future of the story, even before the author has written it. 

 

Aaannndddd...... you're getting butthurt over us having a discussion that you obviously don't want us to have. It's funny that instead of just skipping this thread and letting us talk in idiotic circles, you want to swoop in and quash any theory that didn't sit well with you. 

So Dorian Martells Son,  why are you so upset with discussion? 

Why must out discussion for your view of the books?

And yes Martin does know his books,  not you. He couldn't very well say we having seen the last of Rhaegar if it is true. So your point is invalid. 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

What? We're not upset we're just telling you that your theory doesn't make any sense, we have been providing text evidence showing it doesn't make sense and now you're saying WE don't want you to have the discussion? What the hell?

[Asshai Backwards]

I first heard the RT=MR theory and thought, "wow, this is fun to entertain."  Then I saw the sheer volume of virulent voices vehemently voiding its veracity, and I thought I must be an idiot.  But it kept making sense, and I've seen many excellent, well-thought out posts on the subject.  And yet the dissenters keep coming, always with the same arguments.  Anyway, it makes me really want to put on a tinfoil hat...perhaps it is too close to the truth, and all of these dissenters are just Russian Bots spawned by George's editors to throw us off the trail.  (Winky emoji)

Off the orginal OP topic and veering into traditional MR=RT vagaries, how is it that Mance is never recognized in Winterfell or any other time he goes gallivanting about south of the Wall?  The book starts with a Stark executing a Watch deserter.  Later, another Stark "executes" a different Watch deserter.  Starks capture some wildlings (Osha and Co.) south of the Wall.  And yet the leader of the Wildlings (and supposedly a well-known Watch deserter) traipses around with the king's men and hangs out in Winterfell, with one eye on the Stark bastard...who also happens to be a Targ.  Guess he's just super sneaky.  

[Trigger Warning]

To be honest it shouldn't even be particularly difficult to desert the Wall so long as you aren't picked up by the Night's Watch themselves. 

Mance can go hang about Winterfell because at the end of the day he just looks like some guy. So long as you're not wearing all black they all just look like random plebs unless they're nobility or known for some other reason, just change your clothes idiots. Night's Watch should have branded their faces or something.