Aegon VII

Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

174 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Asshai Backwards said:

I first heard the RT=MR theory and thought, "wow, this is fun to entertain."  Then I saw the sheer volume of virulent voices vehemently voiding its veracity, and I thought I must be an idiot.  But it kept making sense, and I've seen many excellent, well-thought out posts on the subject.  And yet the dissenters keep coming, always with the same arguments. 

I always wonder, do people who write this kind of thing ('I didn't believe it, but when I saw the evidence...' 'Now I'm a firm believer' etc.) not realise that they sound like they've been inducted into a cult?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

To be honest it shouldn't even be particularly difficult to desert the Wall so long as you aren't picked up by the Night's Watch themselves. 

Mance can go hang about Winterfell because at the end of the day he just looks like some guy. So long as you're not wearing all black they all just look like random plebs unless they're nobility or known for some other reason, just change your clothes idiots. Night's Watch should have branded their faces or something. 

Honestly, I agree in theory. And yet Martin goes out of his way to show examples of Watch deserters getting caught, by Starks. Now I'm curious--are there any objective descriptions of "Abel" from POV's that don't know he his Mance?  I.e do Mance and Abel look alike?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

So long as you're not wearing all black they all just look like random plebs unless they're nobility or known for some other reason, just change your clothes idiots.

How? Everything that isn't black is burned, the North has a fairly low population density, and as soon as someone does see you they know you're a deserter and condemned to death. Where are you getting new clothes from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I always wonder, do people who write this kind of thing ('I didn't believe it, but when I saw the evidence...' 'Now I'm a firm believer' etc.) not realise that they sound like they've been inducted into a cult?

To any outside observer, everyone posting on this site sounds like they're in a cult. 

Its an entertaining book. That is the only thing I "firmly believe."  Cheerio!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Saer said:

How? Everything that isn't black is burned, the North has a fairly low population density, and as soon as someone does see you they know you're a deserter and condemned to death. Where are you getting new clothes from?


Partially joking but if you're desperate enough I'm sure you'd be able to source some sort of material at the wall, down to rags and sheets if you have to as long as literally everything you're wearing isn't black you're golden. A ranger could probably get enough stuff from Wildling corpses after a while, point is I don't think the mere fact that they only give you black clothes should be enough to make it hard not to get caught, the rangers especially should be able to avoid people long enough to devise something to make sure they don't blunder into the next village all in black. Covering your cloak in mud might even be enough to not get noticed as a deserter of the Night's Watch off the bat, I doubt the randomers in the North are really that vigilant against something so rare as happening to see a Night's Watch deserter in the vastness of the North, they probably never even think about it. 

Edited by Trigger Warning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

...When Mance finally reveals himself, Jon notes how unKing-like he appears, with his brown eyes, brown hair, lack of jewellery and not so intimidating stature (both height and build)...

Mance and Rhaegar are both Howland Reed. Because.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Rhaegar is posing as Mance Rayder but Arthur Dayne is secretly Mance Rayder it would make Rhaegar Targaryen his own best friend. With what we know about Rhaegar Targaryen it almost makes sense. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Ygrain, do you honestly believe the people who advocate MR=RT as a valid theory are not aware of that SSM? Do you think we just simply ignore it because it doesn't fit the theory,

Exactly.

5 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

so we need you reminding us?

Nope, it's for the sake of others reading the discussion.

 

5 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Or is it possible we are well aware of what GRRM said and still find it completely possible that MR=RT. There are a number of explanations, most of which I'm fairly certain you've heard but simply choose to ignore or write off as unsatisfactory/ a leap. You may not view these explanations as valid but many of us do so, so the SSM you are referencing is not the end all be all game changer you think it is. To throw out one of the 5-7 possible explanations. Rhaegar's body is eventually cremated so GRRM wasn't lying (it would still take place after the events of the trident).

That's the mental gymnastics I was talking about. If the character is still alive, then the answer is not"he WAS cremated", fullstop. You stuffing your fingers in your ears won't change this.

5 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

The part of that SSM no one likes to bring up is how it was actually a two part question where they also asked who found the body. GRRM decided to gloss over that part of the question, as does every MR=RT dissenter who quotes the SSM as a reason to end the discussion.

Because a revelation of some dispute or perhaps not-quite-allowed ceremony leading to interring Rhaegar's ashes somewhere they are not supposed to be (eg. Winterfell crypt along with Lyanna's) is a point that GRRM might not want to tell just yet,  but keeping secret who collected the body and performed the rites doesn't change the outcome a weeest bit: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens, and in the author's mind, there is nothing secret about this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

It's funny but the same could be said of you.

Not really, but nice try

2 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

You seem to know what's important to the future of the story, even before the author has written it. 

Not at all, I just listen to what the author says and when another reader shows me text of a Q&A the author participates in where a question pertaining to a theory I am interested in is answered, I take what is said, because the intention of the author is far more important than my personal desires for a particular character's outcome. 

3 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

.Aaannndddd...... you're getting butthurt over us having a discussion that you obviously don't want us to have. It's funny that instead of just skipping this thread and letting us talk in idiotic circles, you want to swoop in and quash any theory that didn't sit well with you. 

butthurt is gettin upset when book and ssm text is shown in a discussion of a fav theory of yours that renders your beloved theory null and void. 
As for the quashing, think of it as exercise. it is good for you in the long term

3 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

So Dorian Martells Son,  why are you so upset with discussion? 

You are confusing the pointing out of major failings of a theory with being upset. 

3 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

Why must out discussion for your view of the books?

I have no idea what you mean by this. Feel free to restate it in an understandable way.

3 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

And yes Martin does know his books,  not you. He couldn't very well say we having seen the last of Rhaegar if it is true. So your point is invalid. 

Right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Aegon VII said:
Quote

The second point is: rubies.

Glamourous and deceitful rubies. 

Melisandre's illusions are related to her ruby, notably  the trickery with Rattleshirt.

 

Exactly. If no significance why highlight them whenever Rhaegar's death is brought up. It seems to me rubies are associated with glamors yes but more so with one's sense of identity, which even fits with the rubies vs garnets thing and how tywin views them. Either way why draw attention to Rhaegar's identity at the trident.

I remember that passage of Tywin's. 

Identity, or perception of identity. Something to mull over as I go to work this morning.

Rhaegar.

We know he showed up late to the party, only joining the campaign after the Battle of the Bells, CMIIW.

Do you have any idea where he was, during the horror public torture and deaths ordered by Aerys II of Lyanna's brother and father?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

The part of that SSM no one likes to bring up is how it was actually a two part question where they also asked who found the body. GRRM decided to gloss over that part of the question, as does every MR=RT dissenter who quotes the SSM as a reason to end the discussion.

Le huh?

Here's the full extent of that question and answer:

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

That's it. Between a question about the ironborn, and one about the Bear and the Maiden Fair. What are you talking about?

9 hours ago, Aegon VII said:


We enjoy considering these narrative implications and view it as a perfectly valid and feasible theory.

Yes, apparently you do. Nothing to brag about, though. Evidence for is nonexistent, evidence against is conclusive, and the theory has no point.

 

7 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

What I fail to understand is why people think GRRM would give away plot points just because people ask him . So what if GRRM said Rhaegar was cremated "before the books are completed".  

First, no, he didn't use any clever wording, he said plain and simple. And he did that in 2008, years before the publishing of ADWD. And the one burned in ADWD wasn't Mance Rayder anyway, he was the Lord of Bones. Did you miss that?

Should we expect a "Rhaegar is Rattleshirt" theory coming soon?...

7 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

I wonder what he would have said about Theon if someone would have asked about him between books 3 and 5. 

Because authors don't like to give away their stories, especially their plot twists.

So would he have said "oh he's being held and tortured by Ramsey Bolton and is also secretly Reek (THE 3RD Reek mind you, 2 were indeed secret targs....i mean secret identities.) Or would he have said a vague answer that made most people happy yet still allows his secret?

In the very same chat you have numerous examples of what GRRM does when he doesn't want to answer directly. Basically, he evades. Like this:

  • Interesting theory.
  • There´s backstory yet to be revealed, certainly...
  • More will be revealed in DANCE WITH DRAGONS. [As I said, it was a pre-Dance chat.]
  • More will be revealed... somewhere or other.
  • I´ll leave my readers to think about that one.
  • Good question. One day you will get an answer. But it will not be today.
  • Well, we´ll have to see.

See?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't he tend to say "keep reading" when he doesn't want to give spoilers?  He doesn't lie, and saying Rhaegar was cremated if Rhaegar wasn't cremated, is a lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is:

Yes, there are Mance/Rhaegar parallels. (I'm not sure this thread mentions them, but in other iterations they come up.)

The point of them isn't that Mance is secretly Jon's father. The point is so Jon interacts with someone who is, in someone ways, like his father.

(Because Jon is busy not thinking anything about Rhaegar ever, so we get some insight from different directions.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Rhaegar is dead and no amount of html-coloured text will change that. No matter how many colours you use or what random words you choose to point out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Invalid Date at 9:36 PM, Viking said:

Well that's because after leaving the wall he is no longer glamoured but he does have a ruby. All he really needs to do is to get some brown hairwash from the tyroshi traders/slavers and voila his silver hair looks like grey roots as he is described as. His purple eyes can look sufficiently brown, especially if nobody is expecting anything more. Apart from that he's basically a middle aged version of Rhaegar. Nobody thinks about him looking like rhaegar because nobody who has met rhaegar has met mance... apart from possibly aemon, who is blind. 

When he makes his secret trip to Winterfell does he re-glamour himself? Rhaegar was described by Cersei as being the most beautiful man to have ever lived, so much so that he made Jaime look like a common stable boy. He's in the same room with Robert, Ned, Cersei, Jaime, and others who are absolutely going to recognize him even after 15 years of hard living north of the Wall. And I don't buy the "nobody would pay close attention to the bard" -- when the guy looks like Rhaegar, somebody is going to notice and say something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Le huh?

Here's the full extent of that question and answer:

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

That's it. Between a question about the ironborn, and one about the Bear and the Maiden Fair. What are you talking about?

In the full version of the chat, it is the last question, and GRRM goes "time to wrap this up, Rhaegar was cremated, bye". Either he really ran out of time or got cagey, hard to tell, but compared to his previous answers, he was much briefer. Not that it really matters, though, the gist of the answer remains the same.

1 hour ago, Saer said:

The thing is:

Yes, there are Mance/Rhaegar parallels. (I'm not sure this thread mentions them, but in other iterations they come up.)

The point of them isn't that Mance is secretly Jon's father. The point is so Jon interacts with someone who is, in someone ways, like his father.

(Because Jon is busy not thinking anything about Rhaegar ever, so we get some insight from different directions.)

Bingo. No-one denies the existence of very interesting parallels, but these don't mean that Rhaegar survived the hammertime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

This isn't just saying "you have to believe George is being cagey about one aspect of the story". In order for Mance/Rhaegar to be true, you have to believe George's own words are lying to us, about every aspect of it.

It must be tiring to read a book and not believe any of the words in it are saying what they're actually saying. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.

Yes. I fully agree, there must be some lies or fake news relating to the battle of the trident for Rhaegar to be Mance.

Then again R + L = J relies on lies, narrator bias and fake news as do the KotLT and the Un-Kiss as well. 

The fact that Yandel has his own POV can't be dismissed just like all the other POVs that are misleading. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

When he makes his secret trip to Winterfell does he re-glamour himself? Rhaegar was described by Cersei as being the most beautiful man to have ever lived, so much so that he made Jaime look like a common stable boy. He's in the same room with Robert, Ned, Cersei, Jaime, and others who are absolutely going to recognize him even after 15 years of hard living north of the Wall. And I don't buy the "nobody would pay close attention to the bard" -- when the guy looks like Rhaegar, somebody is going to notice and say something.

My assumption is htat he glamours himself while at the wall and south of it and unglamours himself while he's doing the nasty work of prophecy while ranging north of it. I don't understand why this concept is so complicated?

Jon never met Rhaegar, Stannis never met Rhaegar. Just compare 2008 Obama to 2016 Obama (or 2000 Bush to 2008 Bush if you are a republican) and try to tell me 15 years of harsh living north of the wall wouldn't pre-maturely age somebody. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not a fan of the Rheagar Mance theory. Rhaegar died. Martin said the body was cremated. The thing I don’t often see brought up in the RhaeMan threads is at least two men saw dead Rhaegar.  Granted the quote doesn’t mention Rhaegar’s helmet -- whether it fell of when Rheagar hit the ground or whether in a fit of fury, King Bob yanked it off after Rheagar hit the ground. Either way, I think Robert would want to look upon the face of the man he believed raped his Lyanna.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black.

On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves."

 

As much as I want Mance to have an interesting story in the upcoming books I don’t think Martin is going to keep Mance around very long. Hopefully Mance won’t be written out until he discloses how he came to be in possession of that raven winged helmet and reveals who Qhorin Halfhand was before he came to the Wall.

Jonothor Darry, this is what the coffee table book says. He died.

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: Robert’s Rebellion

Of the famous battle on the Trident, much has been written and said. But all know that the two armies clashed at the crossing that would ever after be called the Ruby Ford for the scattered rubies on Prince Rhaegar's armor. The opponents were well matched. Rhaegar's forces numbered some forty thousand, a tenth part of which were anointed knights, while the rebels had somewhat fewer men, but those they possessed were tested in battle, while much of Rhaegar's force was raw and new.

The battle at the ford was fierce, and many lives were lost in the fray. Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne. But the most important death was yet to come.

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar's chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince's breastplate.

 

A personal opinion I have is that not every cracked pot, tinfoil theory can be backed up by merely saying witnesses, characters, and text material is unreliable and biased.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now