Aegon VII

Jon Darry died wearing Rhaegar's armor at Battle of the Trident

174 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

RR, I'm not sure if you've ever followed (or are even aware of) my little side research project comparing ASOIAF characters and plots to those of Marvel comics in the 1960s-late '70s, but you may find this tidbit interesting.

HERE is an image of the sigil of House Baelish - the Titan of Braavos.

HERE is an image of Thanos the Mad Titan, one of the top baddies of the Marvelverse, a 'giant' of a demigod (he's almost 7 feet tall) who was shunned as a youth in favor of his more personable and handsome brother, a slight that led him to  set out on a lifelong pursuit of ever-increasing personal power.

Anyway, I won't go into long plot summary or origin story or anything, but I'm working (slowly) on ferreting out some other commonalities with Littlefinger.     Just thought you might find this amusing re: the giant association.   :D

Thanks for that Pretty.  :)

Ha ha; although I've never read your thoughts on that, nor am I familiar with the Marvel universe (do you have a link to any specific threads I ought to read to educate myself further?), I am aware of your researches in that direction -- that's actually why I chose the adjective 'marvellous' to describe 'PrettyPig drawing a marvellous comparison...' (I'm sneaky like that sometimes, despite being such an ultra-nerdish nerd that I'm not familiar with the Marvellous universe) :P.

Edited by ravenous reader

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3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

HIS HAIR, HIS EYES, HIS HEIGHT, HIS WEIGHT, HIS MANNERS, HIS POSTURE, HIS SWORD SKILLS, HIS EVERYTHING.

Logic is tough for a lot of people 

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3 hours ago, Viking said:

Which discrepancies? There aren't any which require anything other than 15 years of hard living or an unreliable narrator. 

 

3 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

HIS HAIR, HIS EYES, HIS HEIGHT, HIS WEIGHT, HIS MANNERS, HIS POSTURE, HIS SWORD SKILLS, HIS EVERYTHING.

not to mention the fact that Mance Rayder already existed at the time that Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.  So, are we supposed to believe that Rhaegar took on the identity of someone who already existed, instead of simply pretending to be one of what was probably a multitude of Targaryen supporters that washed up in the NW at that point.  And, if so, what happened to the real Mance?

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On 5/15/2017 at 9:56 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

HIS HAIR, HIS EYES, HIS HEIGHT, HIS WEIGHT, HIS MANNERS, HIS POSTURE, HIS SWORD SKILLS, HIS EVERYTHING.

He used brown hairwash but has a hard time getting it, unlike sansa, and his silver roots are showing, though people assume the silver roots are actually grey.

His eye color is mis-identified like so many other characters based on framing. 

His height discrepancy is easily due to observer bias, Cercei's womb thinks he is tall, Jon Snow thinks he is middle height. We have already established that Jeyne Weserling has both narrow and wide hips. 

His manners are the ones suited to an unconventional king in the north, not the court at Kings Landing. As he points out himself, one does not become king in the north because one is born in a castle. 

His posture is a result of 15 years of hard living in addition to his conscious presentation of himself. 

He is excellent as a swordsman, so was Rhaegar. Rhaegar did everything well. 

 

None of these discrepancies are not consistent with 15 years of hard living, deliberate choices and observer bias. 

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On 5/16/2017 at 1:40 AM, Nevets said:

 

not to mention the fact that Mance Rayder already existed at the time that Rhaegar was killed at the Trident.  So, are we supposed to believe that Rhaegar took on the identity of someone who already existed, instead of simply pretending to be one of what was probably a multitude of Targaryen supporters that washed up in the NW at that point.  And, if so, what happened to the real Mance?

And? Consider this sequence

Rhaegar arrives at wall with Jon Darry. 

LC Quorguyle and Maester Aemon hope to let him join the nights watch

Mance Rayder finds out about his identity and hopes to narc on Rhaegar to Robert to receive a pardon and hopefully a title.

Mance is killed/dies a convenient natural death.

Rhaegar assumes Mance's identity to keep his Identity secret and becomes a ranger to avoid spending much time at Castle Black. 

Darry becomes Qorin Halfhand

Rhaegar eventually deserts to help fulfil the prophecy, possibly with support from Aemon, Qorin and possibly the lord commander as well. 

The main purpose of the great ranging was to get Jon face to face with Mance to see if he is his son. 

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10 minutes ago, Viking said:

He used brown hairwash but has a hard time getting it, unlike sansa, and his silver roots are showing, though people assume the silver roots are actually grey.

Bullshit. If the roots have a different colour than the rest of the hair, then everyone knows the hair is dyed. Unless you can provide a quote about Mance's hair roots, you're spinning a fanfic, and a bad one on top of that.

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

His eye color is mis-identified like so many other characters based on framing. 

Bullshit. The framing affects the perception of similar colour tones - dark grey or dark purple for black, violet for blue. Never purple for brown.

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

His height discrepancy is easily due to observer bias, Cercei's womb thinks he is tall, Jon Snow thinks he is middle height. We have already established that Jeyne Weserling has both narrow and wide hips. 

Bullshit. Other sources (e.g. Dany's vision) depict Rhaegar as tall. Jeyne's hips or Renly's eyes are pretty much an exception and they are mistakes. All the other characters are described in the same way.

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

His manners are the ones suited to an unconventional king in the north, not the court at Kings Landing. As he points out himself, one does not become king in the north because one is born in a castle. 

His posture is a result of 15 years of hard living in addition to his conscious presentation of himself. 

A guy who had been melancholic from the get go and whose wife, children and mistress/second wife died because of his actions, developed a taste for bawdy songs. Riiiight.

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

He is excellent as a swordsman, so was Rhaegar. Rhaegar did everything well. 

And Arthur was Rhaegar and Jaime was Rhaegar and so is Brienne.

12 minutes ago, Viking said:

None of these discrepancies are not consistent with 15 years of hard living, deliberate choices and observer bias. 

Bullshit. Squared. Repeating a busted "argument" won't make it any truer. You think you have a point, bring up a quote or at least a RL example. You can't.  Try something else.

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50 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And Arthur was Rhaegar and Jaime was Rhaegar and so is Brienne.

You missed that Ned is Robert and Robert is Brandon.

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3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I'm Brian and so is my wife.

Glad that someone has picked this :-)

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Interesting read, but like others said its just rumours based on rumours, that honestly leads to a shitty conclusion of Jon's story.

Although it did remind me how awesome the Legacy of Kain & Soul Reaver series are...so thanks for that:D

 

 

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22 hours ago, Viking said:

And? Consider this sequence

Rhaegar arrives at wall with Jon Darry. 

OK. Let's recap. Jon Darry had already died at the Trident twice - first time, wearing Rhaegar's armor (as per the topic), and second time, as Ser Jonothor Darry himself (as a known casualty of the battle). Not miffed by his double death in the slightest, he arrived in good health at the Wall, accompanying Rhaegar. Good man.

I like it already.

22 hours ago, Viking said:

LC Quorguyle and Maester Aemon hope to let him join the nights watch

Mance Rayder finds out about his identity and hopes to narc on Rhaegar to Robert to receive a pardon and hopefully a title.

Mance is killed/dies a convenient natural death.

Rhaegar assumes Mance's identity to keep his Identity secret and becomes a ranger to avoid spending much time at Castle Black. 

Huh. Didn't want to spend too much time at Castle Black, so he impersonated one of the black brethren. Not, say, some Joe Wildling, but Mance Rayder of the Night's Watch. Taking all the unnecessary risks that came with the territory. The disguise could fail, he could slip and betray himself, etc. For no apparent gain.

22 hours ago, Viking said:

 

Darry becomes Qorin Halfhand

Hey, that's so cool! Twice dead Jonothor Darry took yet another personality, and died as yet another fella.

Was it his last time? Are there any more men (dead or alive) who are Jonothor Darry? Do we know who? How many?

22 hours ago, Viking said:

Rhaegar eventually deserts to help fulfil the prophecy, possibly with support from Aemon, Qorin and possibly the lord commander as well. 

The main purpose of the great ranging was to get Jon face to face with Mance to see if he is his son. 

Well figured. Nothing facilitates a covert meeting, nothing gathers less attention, than an expedition of three hundred men, nearly one-third of the Night's Watch entire force.

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Yeah, why do three fugitives have to assume the identities of men already known? Why couldn't they just make up fake names, like Chett Manly for instance, or Randy Magnum, and just go hide their purple eyes and silver hair in a dark corner where they don't have to hang out with all Mance Rayder's increasingly suspicious friends?

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Alright. let's get started. This thread was not to defend MR=RT. It instead to provide a theory that would help support it. Some on this forum felt that MR=RT is impossible and therefore we should not have theories like this that are related to it. I admit that MR=RT is crackpot but I view it as a valid theory and enjoy discussing it and theories related to it such as this. Since a thread will go where it goes I will give in and now full on defend MR=RT. For those people who've mocked this theory, please remember that my goal is not to convert you into thinking MR=RT is true. Instead it is to convince you that it is POSSIBLE. That it is a valid theory.

 

Let's begin. You've mentioned the same 5-10 objections that get brought up every MR=RT thread. This contributes nothing new, but I'll provide an answer for you all one more time. I'm sure you will read these and say, this is mental gymnastics, he is deluding himself and looking for any possible excuse to explain this theory. Well sure, that's a natural conclusion. Of course I disagree, but I can see how if you haven't done the hours of research and seen the hint after hint that supports MR=RT, you would view these as wild excuses, rather than small hurdles that once overcome lead to huge narrative implications and a pretty cohesive theory( albeit not nearly fleshed out).

Again remember, we are talking about if MR=RT is possible. You may conclude that this is too farfetched and contrived and grrm is a better writer than to do this, but guess what, that's just like, your opinion man. Who are you to say that your interpretation of the evidence is better than those of us whom view MR=RT as valid, if all of us have the same facts. Who are you to say we have no right to discuss it as a theory, simply because you have evaluated it as impossible.

Perhaps you just hold theories to a higher standard. Some people would say, if there's a 1% chance of something being true, it warrants investigation. Others would say, if the evidence is more against it than for it we shouldn't even bother exploring it. I am more in the first camp. We have nothing but time, I like to explore all theories that there is evidence supporting (Yup, that means mr=rt).

Rhaegar is quite the character and many of us feel his story is left uncompleted. He started the war that started this whole situation, he is painted consistently as the perfect hero, he was obsessed with prophecy, he was going to summerhall where there was a CoTF who is known to give prophecies in exchange for harps and he is brought up a ton. Plus there's all them damn rubies flying off his chest. A ton of mystery surrounding his death and RR in general.

Then we have mance, who along with BR is doing the absolute most in the war against the others. He's saving wildings and getting them south of the wall, searching graves for mystical artifacts, and possibly searching the crypts of wf for the same. Mance has picked up the battle against the others that presumably Rhaegar and BR before him had started. Mance's backstory is given by three characters, all somewhat contradictory. We's told he's a wildling bastard in one story, told he's the bastard of a nw brother in another, and then osha notes how she is different than mance, he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her. Well hold on, wasn't mance born up there? wasn't his mother and her bother before her born up there as well? hasn't he tasted winter? You can say these three descriptions don't outright contradict each other but they certainly don't support each other. When we are first introduced to the king beyond the wall, Jon confuses the identity and thinks Styr is Mance. We also have Jon noting The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. So in our first introduction we are presented with Mance not being who we (Jon and the reader) think he is, and we have Jon noting that he doesn't look like a wildling. We also have a lowborn bastard wildling somehow being capable enough to unite the wildlings through both words and sword. This is super fucking impressive. Probably the most impressive thing anyone in asoiaf has done. For real, in a society built on violence and one on one fighting, Mance is taking down tribe leaders in single combat, while also being an orator and a singer. Mance is the man, and there's a lot suggesting he's more than meets the eye.

So we have one character who's story seems incomplete and one who's background does not add up to who we are told they are. They also both share many qualities. There is a huge mystery at the center of asoiaf, R+L=J. MR=RT is just suggesting that this mystery is even bigger than we thought.

So let's begin with the common objections. Here is the description of Mance's appearance. if you have any others please post and we can discuss.

He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey.

Height: We know Rhaegar is tall from Dany's vision. we know Jon describes Mance as middling height. the asoiaf wiki also calls him long-legged. We only get the description of Mance being middling height from Jon. this is when the only other people in the tent are styr and tormund, and in the same scene, Jon calls tormund short. middling height in a room full of tribe leaders can still be pretty tall. And this is before all his years north of the wall that could easily arch is back and make him lose an inch. This does not invalidate MR=RT.

Hair: While it's nice to see that some of us are self professed experts on hair dye and how GRRM would choose to describe it, I don't know how you can say that the statement Long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey could not be describing someone with silver hair who's hair has been dyed brown and is fading.

Eyes: People see what they expect to see. No one expects purple eyes. If you see dark eyes in a smoke filled tent you may very well mistake them as brown. We are human, mistakes are made. Or, Mance is still glamouring his eyes, we know appearance can be changed rather easily from the FM and BR, so I don't know how a difference in appearance can really invalidate anything.

Beauty: Again, people see what they expect. Think of all the movies where the hot girl plays an ugly girl but then they have a make over and you realize they were pretty all the time. King beyond the wall is a hard man. People see him as a hardened king. Even if he was beautiful in his youth, that doesn't mean anytime someone views him now they have to comment on how beautiful he is. Again years north of the wall take their toll on a face, same as they do height and personality.

Personality: Rhaegar always had a sense of gloom about him. I would argue this was from knowing how this was all going to unfold, with all his family dying. It's one thing to be sad like that when you know a huge tragedy is coming up, but once it's happened and it's decades later people move on. Of course they don't forget but I think Rhaegar learning to still appreciate life and Dalla does fit in with Rhaegar's character. He's still very prophecy oriented, he's still taking steps to save the realm, he's still easily tempted by the charms of women, he still loves creating music, he's still great at everything, he still is a bad ass warrior even though he prefers not to fight. Look at Rhaegar stating, it seems I must be a warrior, and we have a description of mance where they say, Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. In both cases they use swordplay when necessary but not as a first choice.

Sword skills: Some as thrown out this as a hurdle but I really don't get that. Clan leaders fight with 2h swords, it only makes sense rhaegar would adopt one as a leader. He's known as one of the best swordsmen, makes sense he would be good enough to defeat the other tribe leaders in one on one combat, more so than some lowborn bastard who grew up at the wall. Despite what some would argue, I don't think growing up at the wall would put you in a great position to be a super warrior, or to be super smart, which mance seems to be. the wall is a bunch of losers.

So, I'm sorry but I do not see anything that makes MR=RT impossible. You can say these explanations are mental gymnastics but again, that's your opinion and does not give you the right to try to prevent other people from discussing the theory when you are not adding anything to the discussion, and instead are just forcing us to repeat our reasoning, which you then reject.

 

On 5/14/2017 at 5:44 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


Now, for the highlighted section, we are also free to continue to point out how you are wrong, over and over and over again because we want to.

You are, and I'm here to point out that you aren't contributing anything. And to also suggest, that you're not pointing out that I'm wrong, you're pointing out that you believe I'm wrong. Your treating your opinion as fact rather than accepting that you MIGHT be wrong. I am approaching this theory as "it's probably wrong", yet that's not good enough for you, you have to make it clear that this theory is so impossible anyone who discusses it is worthy of your mockery. Your disrupting our discussion based on this.

On 5/14/2017 at 5:44 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, it is. They are perfectly equatable with completely equal chances of being correct. Think about that before you reply again
 

I understand this is your opinion, again this doesn't add anything to our conversation. I'm asking you to please consider that you may be wrong, that they may not be equatable, and that it's not your place to tell us that  a theory is not worth being discussed when you're not adding anything to the discussion.

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

>mance's height weight and eyes don't match Rhaegar's

 Most of these have been addressed but I know how we all like to glance over responses rather than actually read so I'll summarize once again, mance is long legged and described as middling height by jon in a room with styr and tormund. If rhaegar shrunk one inch from his years north of the wall this description would be completely accurate. Or if jons just thrown off because he's in a room full of tall people. He also calls tormund short.

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:


>mance's attittude is not very king-like

Was rhaegars? mance's attitude is of a person who never learned to take orders, which would fit a prince. he respects magic, is concerned with the mystical aspects of asoiaf as seen by him turning up graves and being interested in the crypts of wf. Rhaegar and Mance have both devoted their lives to prophecy/saving westeros.

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:


>robert didn't mind to check if he killed the man he hated the most

Another person such as darry is glamored to look like rhaegar, rhaegar was actually there and is somehow healed/revived, no one checked in the confusion of battle. There are a lot of possible explanations. The glamor of another person is what I presented here, so I'm not sure why this is still even up for discussion. If darry is glamored to look like rhaegar, as I said in my op, robert checking his face would make no difference.

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:


>brown hair + purple eyes = brown eyes (genius)

dark eyes in a dimly lit smoky tent are mistaken as brown by Jon Snow

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:


>my theory is right even with all these arguments being wrong

Never once said the theory was right, just looking for you permission to discuss it without being mocked. you're arguments are great for why it probably isn't true, but none of them invalidate the theory. You may not like the theory, but please respect that we view this info differently and still enjoy discussing it.

On 5/14/2017 at 7:27 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:


Dude, please stop. It's wrong, it's over, it's just a book. 

It will be over when you stop mocking people who are trying to discuss a perfectly valid theory. you not agreeing with a theory doesn't make it okay to say that people shouldn't discuss it

On 5/14/2017 at 8:45 PM, Ser Loras The Gay said:

What? We're not upset we're just telling you that your theory doesn't make any sense, we have been providing text evidence showing it doesn't make sense and now you're saying WE don't want you to have the discussion? What the hell?

No, you're pointing out the same objections to MR=RT that have been discussed a million times. I see little text evidence showing MR=RT is impossible. If you're trying to show it's unlikely, you don't need to, we all already know that. But no, you're saying we shouldn't even discuss it because it's impossible and ridiculous. We say you're getting upset because instead of letting people who accept MR=RT as possible discuss this theory, you and others have decided to mock it. to derail the thread because in your eyes it's impossible theory not worthy of discussion. Please stop.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:09 PM, Asshai Backwards said:

Off the orginal OP topic and veering into traditional MR=RT vagaries, how is it that Mance is never recognized in Winterfell or any other time he goes gallivanting about south of the Wall?

I believe GRRM has stressed how easy it is for people not to recognize others in disguise. I view glamors as more of a spectrum and this theory presupposes Rhaegar was versed in them. Even without a glamor I think he'd fit in just fine, but if not he may have still used a glamor. Just by having some dyed facial hair and raggy bard clothing I don't think anyone would look twice, even if they knew rhaegar well.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:09 PM, Asshai Backwards said:

 The book starts with a Stark executing a Watch deserter.  Later, another Stark "executes" a different Watch deserter.  Starks capture some wildlings (Osha and Co.) south of the Wall.  And yet the leader of the Wildlings (and supposedly a well-known Watch deserter) traipses around with the king's men and hangs out in Winterfell, with one eye on the Stark bastard...who also happens to be a Targ.  Guess he's just super sneaky.  

The black crow is a tricksy bird.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:19 PM, Trigger Warning said:

To be honest it shouldn't even be particularly difficult to desert the Wall so long as you aren't picked up by the Night's Watch themselves. 

Mance can go hang about Winterfell because at the end of the day he just looks like some guy. So long as you're not wearing all black they all just look like random plebs unless they're nobility or known for some other reason, just change your clothes idiots. Night's Watch should have branded their faces or something. 

I agree. the people who get caught do so because they are thinking like fugitives and do stupid shit, like steal a horse. And in the end, the part I highlighted is crucial to my story, once someone is viewed as a worker, or a bard, or a servant or whatever, that's all people see. After so many years, Rhaegar looks just like a man, sure if he dressed up people could recongize him, but as long as he dresses as a normal guy, that's all people will recognize.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:43 PM, Asshai Backwards said:

Its an entertaining book. That is the only thing I "firmly believe."  Cheerio!

That's one of the biggest things. Some approach these theories as, if you talk about it you must believe it. I believe it's a good book series as you said, everything else is just exploring possibilities. Some don't want to let us explore the more unlikely possibilities, which is why this thread has become so derailed.

On 5/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ygrain said:

That's the mental gymnastics I was talking about. If the character is still alive, then the answer is not"he WAS cremated", fullstop. You stuffing your fingers in your ears won't change this.

False, who are you to say what time frame something fictional happened in. It could be the future, past or present. Just because a scene wasn't published doesn't mean it's still the future in the eyes of the author. Again though, this is one of numerous explanations, all of which you've heard. Please realize, just becaue you call these "mental gymnastics" doesn't make them any less valid. We would assume if GRRM is covering up the biggest twist, he would do everything he could to hide the truth. What's to say GRRM didn't use these same mental gymnastics to justify saying rhaegar was cremated?

On 5/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ygrain said:

Because a revelation of some dispute or perhaps not-quite-allowed ceremony leading to interring Rhaegar's ashes somewhere they are not supposed to be (eg. Winterfell crypt along with Lyanna's) is a point that GRRM might not want to tell just yet,  but keeping secret who collected the body and performed the rites doesn't change the outcome a weeest bit: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens, and in the author's mind, there is nothing secret about this.

You can say the ssm doesn't support MR=RT, but it does not invalidate it. You can think grrm wouldn't go through these "mental gymnastics" but some of us think it's possible that he would, or possible that he would lie. So to us the SSM really does not change anything.

On 5/14/2017 at 11:44 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not at all, I just listen to what the author says and when another reader shows me text of a Q&A the author participates in where a question pertaining to a theory I am interested in is answered, I take what is said, because the intention of the author is far more important than my personal desires for a particular character's outcome. 

This is you saying that you are capable of interpreting what the author says and the text of a q&a and being completely confident of your interpretation of it. I am asking you to please consider that you MAY be wrong in your interpretation. Even though you listened to what the author said, so did the rest of us, and we believe mr=rt is still a valid theory. This is not us just trying to justify our personal desires as you view it.

On 5/14/2017 at 11:44 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

butthurt is gettin upset when book and ssm text is shown in a discussion of a fav theory of yours that renders your beloved theory null and void. 

Again you viewing the theory as null and void is your opinion and it's wrong. Please respect that others have seen the same books and same ssm and disagree. We can't know whether a theory is true or false, but some of us choose to accept that we may be wrong, and not try to mock others who have come to a different conclusion then ourselves. Please accept that you may be wrong and that you are not contributing to this discussion.

 

On 5/14/2017 at 11:53 PM, Prof. Cecily said:

I remember that passage of Tywin's. 

Identity, or perception of identity. Something to mull over as I go to work this morning.

Rhaegar.

We know he showed up late to the party, only joining the campaign after the Battle of the Bells, CMIIW.

Do you have any idea where he was, during the horror public torture and deaths ordered by Aerys II of Lyanna's brother and father?

 

Not really, but I would guess summerhall. There seems to be more we haven't been told about summerhall. I think it's that rhaegar was close with the GoHH. Since it was the place he loved best though, I could see him takin Lyanna there and hiding in the ruins.

On 5/15/2017 at 3:26 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Le huh?

Here's the full extent of that question and answer:

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

That's it. Between a question about the ironborn, and one about the Bear and the Maiden Fair. What are you talking about?

That's the SSM but is not the text of the discussion itself. I most recently saw this point referenced in http://jertech.blogspot.com/2015/07/no-rhaegar-is-not-dead.html. As you can see, he even references how they shorten the question in the ssm. He provides a link to the original convo but it is no longer working. If you would like, we can post on the small questions thread to see if anyone has a link to the original questions. But yeah, glosses over who finds the body and then ends the q&a right after, raises eyebrows to me.

On 5/15/2017 at 3:26 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

First, no, he didn't use any clever wording, he said plain and simple. And he did that in 2008, years before the publishing of ADWD. And the one burned in ADWD wasn't Mance Rayder anyway, he was the Lord of Bones. Did you miss that?

No, I'm fully aware of that, and yet somehow I still view MR=RT as valid. If the SSM invalidates the theory in your mind that's fine but please accept it does not for everyone. The easiest fall back would be, not everyone believes GRRM tells the truth. Personally I think he could still be telling the truth and MR=RT, but if that's too much mental gymnastics for you then fine, let's just say not all of us believe grrm wouldn't lie. He could have been referring to the lord of bones burning as you mention, or rhaegar burning later in the series, or rhaegar frey burning, or rhaegar does actually burn and is resurrected, or again, he may just be lying. Nothing there that invalidates the theory though.

On 5/15/2017 at 3:26 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Should we expect a "Rhaegar is Rattleshirt" theory coming soon?...

In the very same chat you have numerous examples of what GRRM does when he doesn't want to answer directly. Basically, he evades. Like this:

  • Interesting theory.
  • There´s backstory yet to be revealed, certainly...
  • More will be revealed in DANCE WITH DRAGONS. [As I said, it was a pre-Dance chat.]
  • More will be revealed... somewhere or other.
  • I´ll leave my readers to think about that one.
  • Good question. One day you will get an answer. But it will not be today.
  • Well, we´ll have to see.

See?

Great examples of what he does, but that doesn't change anything. His past habits are not a certain indication of how he answer's future questions. If one question gives away the main plot of the story, he may choose to change his approach on how to answer. You can think he wouldn't do that, you can think he wouldn't lie, please accept some of us disagree and don't view this as a theory killer.

On 5/15/2017 at 4:33 AM, Saer said:

The thing is:

Yes, there are Mance/Rhaegar parallels. (I'm not sure this thread mentions them, but in other iterations they come up.)

The point of them isn't that Mance is secretly Jon's father. The point is so Jon interacts with someone who is, in someone ways, like his father.

(Because Jon is busy not thinking anything about Rhaegar ever, so we get some insight from different directions.)

I would agree. I think in the end this is the purpose of the Rhaegar/Mance parallels. But just because I think that's most likely doesn't mean I don't enjoy considering alternatives, such as those paralells being there because mance is rhaegar.

On 5/15/2017 at 5:51 AM, Red Man Racey said:

When he makes his secret trip to Winterfell does he re-glamour himself? Rhaegar was described by Cersei as being the most beautiful man to have ever lived, so much so that he made Jaime look like a common stable boy. He's in the same room with Robert, Ned, Cersei, Jaime, and others who are absolutely going to recognize him even after 15 years of hard living north of the Wall. And I don't buy the "nobody would pay close attention to the bard" -- when the guy looks like Rhaegar, somebody is going to notice and say something.

This is your assumption on how a situation would unfold. GRRM has shown us again and again people not recognizing others they know well e.g arya, pycelle, the guy who goes south with Cat, arstan(jorah) etc. I believe Rhaegar easily could have been walking around WF, even if jaime was there two, and not been recongized. people see what they expect to see. Even just a beard and some brown hair would prob be enough to not be noticed. If we consider that rhaegar may know Glamours it make the lack of recognition even easier.

 

On 5/15/2017 at 4:12 PM, ravenous reader said:

snip

 

Excellent post! I really enjoy the connections you've drawn to LF, makes me appreciate the theory that he is the third guy in Bran's dream chapter much more! I also really like your killing word thread, I need to revisit, but there were a ton of great points from what I read my first time through.

On 5/15/2017 at 5:12 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Logic is tough for a lot of people 

I completely agree!

On 5/17/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ygrain said:

Bullshit. If the roots have a different colour than the rest of the hair, then everyone knows the hair is dyed. Unless you can provide a quote about Mance's hair roots, you're spinning a fanfic, and a bad one on top of that.

 wtf does hair roots have to do with this? You're the one assuming we would have to have mention of hair roots. the quote is, long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. Someone with silver hair dyed brown could easily be described as this.

On 5/17/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ygrain said:

Bullshit. The framing affects the perception of similar colour tones - dark grey or dark purple for black, violet for blue. Never purple for brown.

So now your an expert on how one person in a tent evaluates the eye color of another person in a smoke filled tent? and how an author would choose to describe it? yeah, we haven't seen an example of someone confusing purple eyes with brown, does not make it impossible. You can say it's so improbable it's the same as impossible, we disagree. jon sees dark eyes in a dark tent and calls them brown, I am still open to him being mistaken. But okay, let's say that there's no way he could have mistaken it. Well, it could still be rhaegar glamoring his eyes a different color. THere's so many explanations that explain these minor hurdles, sure each one is unlikely but that doesn't make the theory invalid, and that is what we are discussing.

On 5/17/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ygrain said:

Bullshit. Other sources (e.g. Dany's vision) depict Rhaegar as tall. Jeyne's hips or Renly's eyes are pretty much an exception and they are mistakes. All the other characters are described in the same way.

I've already discussed twice this post alone, the height fits just fine.

On 5/17/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ygrain said:

A guy who had been melancholic from the get go and whose wife, children and mistress/second wife died because of his actions, developed a taste for bawdy songs. Riiiight.

Yeah, A guy who was most known for his love of music continues loving music, not the stretch you make it out to be. Yeah he was melancholy, but this theory posits he knew his family was about to die, you'd be melancholy too.

On 5/17/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ygrain said:

And Arthur was Rhaegar and Jaime was Rhaegar and so is Brienne.

Bullshit. Squared. Repeating a busted "argument" won't make it any truer. You think you have a point, bring up a quote or at least a RL example. You can't.  Try something else.

We have, repeatedly, you choose not to accept them. So again, why even comment on a thread that is based on MR=RT.. we get that you don't accept it as a valid theory, please accept that others do.

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10 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Excellent post! I really enjoy the connections you've drawn to LF, makes me appreciate the theory that he is the third guy in Bran's dream chapter much more! I also really like your killing word thread, I need to revisit, but there were a ton of great points from what I read my first time through.

Thank you.  I'm also trying to demonstrate that there are far more constructive ways of disagreeing.. :)

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So again, to sum up - your way of addressing points that don't work with your theory is to say "George is lying":

Mance has brown eyes - no he doesn't, Jon Snow can't tell brown from purple either the first time he met Mance or every time since. Maybe Mance dragged Jon into a "dimly lit smoky room" every time he wanted to talk to him on the journey south.

Rhaegar is tall, Mance is of "middling" height - middling is only an inch shorter than tall (apparently), and because Jon met Mance in a room full of short people that somehow makes Mance look short (kind of he opposite of the Shirley Temple effect).

Mance has brown hair going grey, Rhaegar had silver hair - according to you, people need be to be some kind of "expert" to tell the difference between grey roots growing out of a brown dye job, and brown hair going grey. Maybe you need to go hang at your local hairdressers and watch the colourists at work - you might notice that dyed hair grows out at the roots, it doesn't just fade to brown streaked with grey.

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3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:
On 5/15/2017 at 7:53 AM, Prof. Cecily said:

...Rhaegar.

We know he showed up late to the party, only joining the campaign after the Battle of the Bells, CMIIW.

Do you have any idea where he was, during the horror public torture and deaths ordered by Aerys II of Lyanna's brother and father?

 

Not really, but I would guess summerhall. There seems to be more we haven't been told about summerhall. I think it's that rhaegar was close with the GoHH. Since it was the place he loved best though, I could see him takin Lyanna there and hiding in the ruins.

Poor Lyanna. What an idyllic affair- being fucked in creepy ruins while her father and brother are tortured to death, then birthing in a ruined tower in Dornish wastelands. 

 

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3 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

This is your assumption on how a situation would unfold. GRRM has shown us again and again people not recognizing others they know well e.g arya, pycelle, the guy who goes south with Cat, arstan(jorah) etc. I believe Rhaegar easily could have been walking around WF, even if jaime was there two, and not been recongized. people see what they expect to see. Even just a beard and some brown hair would prob be enough to not be noticed. If we consider that rhaegar may know Glamours it make the lack of recognition even easier.

Why exactly are we considering that? What indication have we ever been given that Rhaegar knew glamours? What textual reference gives any slight inclination towards even the remotest possibility that Rhaeager was capable of performing glamours? And where exactly would he have learned these glamours? Did Rhaegar spend significant time abroad in Essos that we're not aware of? Additionally, what indication do we have that Mance knows glamours? In fact, he needs Melisandre to perform the glamour on him for the Lord o' Bones switcheroo; funny he didn't do it himself since he's Rhaeagar and knows glamours and everything.

This theory requires inventing new evidence for it to be even remotely possible and even then demands so many convolutions to make it work. There's nothing elegant or satisfying about this theory - it's a jumbled mess of "what ifs" and "maybes" and "he could haves". If Mance Rayder turns out to be a disguised Rhaegar Targaryen then the story might as well end with Jon finding a B-52 and carpet bombing the entire area north of the wall (I mean, the theory works if we consider that he may find an operational B-52).

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Mance Rayder finds out about his identity and hopes to narc on Rhaegar to Robert to receive a pardon and hopefully a title.

Robert's going to have to think long and hard about whether or not to pardon Mance for the very serious crime of ... oh wait.

Edited by Red Man Racey
Attributed quote to wrong poster

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5 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

False, who are you to say what time frame something fictional happened in. It could be the future, past or present. Just because a scene wasn't published doesn't mean it's still the future in the eyes of the author. Again though, this is one of numerous explanations, all of which you've heard. Please realize, just becaue you call these "mental gymnastics" doesn't make them any less valid. We would assume if GRRM is covering up the biggest twist, he would do everything he could to hide the truth. What's to say GRRM didn't use these same mental gymnastics to justify saying rhaegar was cremated?

Who am I? A fucking liguist, if you please, and you haven't been paying attention to the way the authors speak about events. You may disagree as much as you like, but your claim is completely incorrect. The question pertained to a past event, already described in the books already published. In this context, providing an answer in the past tense with incorrect information would be a lie, and GRRM absolutely has no need to lie, all he needed to say was "sorry, time to wrap this up, you will learn the details of the battle of the Trident and its aftermath in the later books, bye". See? No reveal of your "big twist", no lies. Win-win.

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

So again, to sum up - your way of addressing points that don't work with your theory is to say "George is lying":

Mance has brown eyes - no he doesn't, Jon Snow can't tell brown from purple either the first time he met Mance or every time since. Maybe Mance dragged Jon into a "dimly lit smoky room" every time he wanted to talk to him on the journey south.

Rhaegar is tall, Mance is of "middling" height - middling is only an inch shorter than tall (apparently), and because Jon met Mance in a room full of short people that somehow makes Mance look short (kind of he opposite of the Shirley Temple effect).

Mance has brown hair going grey, Rhaegar had silver hair - according to you, people need be to be some kind of "expert" to tell the difference between grey roots growing out of a brown dye job, and brown hair going grey. Maybe you need to go hang at your local hairdressers and watch the colourists at work - you might notice that dyed hair grows out at the roots, it doesn't just fade to brown streaked with grey.

Lol, I'm imagining Val and Dalla hastily putting up Mance's tent and making fire smoke, whenever Mance feels like talking to Jon :D

Also, when Jon enters the tent for the first time, he sees there:

Tormund - broad and short

Styr - lean and tallER than Tormund. We don't know how much taller than Tormund but definitely nowhere on par with e.g. Duncan the Tall because such an extreme would have had to be mentioned. He is not taller only in comparison with Tormund, either, because his son is described as a"younger, shorter version of his father", but not notably short in the way Tormund is. That makes Styr about "normally tall"  - perhaps taller than Jon himself at that time, but not exceptionally tall.

And then, in the company of these two, Mance is described as of middling height - meaning, his height falls between Tormund and Styr, with nothing special about it.

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6 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Alright. let's get started. This thread was not to defend MR=RT. It instead to provide a theory that would help support it.

Seems that it doesn't, rather the opposite. "Rhaegar is alive and is Mance Rayder" is incredibly feeble on its own. The double corpse switcheroo (someone for Jon Darry and Jon Darry for Rhaegar) makes it weaker still.

 

6 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

That's the SSM but is not the text of the discussion itself. I most recently saw this point referenced in http://jertech.blogspot.com/2015/07/no-rhaegar-is-not-dead.html. As you can see, he even references how they shorten the question in the ssm. He provides a link to the original convo but it is no longer working.

Pity, that. So I only have his word for it, and his very creative interpretation, not supported even by his cherry-picked quote (assuming it is genuine).

First, the quotes:

Quote

   Q: "Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?"

   GRRM: "Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens. This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up. Three more questions, and let´s close."

Second, the comment:
 

Quote

 

George only gave the vaguest possible answer to the second part, and completely ignored the first.  Then, he made a deliberate effort to change the subject even though he had time to answer more questions!  It cannot be denied that George R. R. Martin intentionally refused to discuss who recovered Rhaegar's corpse.  Any reasonable person would admit that this revelation actually supports the belief that Rhaegar may not be dead.

 

All the claims here are false. Yes, it can be denied, it doesn't look like a "refusal" in the slightest, more like GRRM thought that he gave a satisfying answer. No, the "three more questions and that's it" part isn't "changing the subject". Considering that the chat did end three Q&A's later, it seems that GRRM had told the truth.

Jeremy's line of argument shows the MR=RT theory in all its glory, that is - weak as hell. Out of curiosity, I paged up and down, and in every paragraph there's either dubious logic, or an outright false claim.

6 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

No, I'm fully aware of that, and yet somehow I still view MR=RT as valid.

So? Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong. You've been proven wrong beyond reasonable doubt, and now are holding to unreasonable doubt, which isn't a consideration even in a criminal trial, and I won't concern myself with it, either.

It is, therefore, obvious, that you cannot be swayed and will hold to your theory even after the series is concluded. Have at it.

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