Hydratic

Who is the best commander out of Tywin, Eddard and Stannis?

51 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

We have almost no idea, at all, what is legal or illegal in Westeros.

And yet for the past three replies you have been adamant that Tywin did something illegal.  Now that has been pointed out as being false you seem to be backtracking.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 I'm basing it off what actual feudal contracts and relationships in our world (in other words, what GRRM is basing it off of) would consider legal or illegal.

Go on then.  Give examples  of the medieval world of Tywin's illegal actions. I want real life examples and with people of the time calling it against the Law. 

Oh, and GRRM does not share your view on the medieval world: There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases...The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power.

GRRM has always been pretty consistent about this and the fact that King Jaehaerys took no action against Tywin and his heir actually admired what Tywin did shows the law was very much on Tywin's side. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

And yes, everything Tywin does in the Westerlands is illegal.

And I am still waiting for the evidence on this. Go ahead,  prove that Tywin broke a Westerosi law.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

It doesn't matter if Tytos is silent on the matter; only Tytos has the authority to call debts, summon bannermen, or punish them for their refusal to do the former.

According to who? Why did these Lords not complain to the King Jaehaerys II if Tywin's actions were illegal?

Why does Tywin allow these illegal actions to be recorded in the history books? It is Pycelle who is writing this and he seems unlikely to incriminate Tywin. 

 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Tywin has no more right to demand repayment of debt to his father than you have a right to demand I pay back a loan to someone.

You keep on repeating this bullshit without offering any evidence. No one in Westeros has called Tywin's actions as against the law. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 And yes, the Reynes assaulted the Lannister/Marbrand force, which is certainly illegal.  But they get pardoned for it, so from Tywin's perspective, all of his actions in regards to the Reynes and Tarbecks are still illegal.

Evidence that it was  illegal. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

And again, the Reynes and Tarbecks have committed no crimes that they should be asked to answer for,

So then why did they not petition King Jaehaerys? Roger Reyne was one of the prominent commanders in the War of the Nine Penny Kings, he would have a decent relationship with the King. If the actions against him were illegal why did he not petition with Tytos or Jaehaerys?

He had been asked to come to court, he refused and then renounced his fealty and then Tywin went to war. There was no illegal action. Edmure and Robb are also able to summon bannermen to their court while their father are still alive. This is common practice. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

and they have very good reason to suspect that their appearing in person will result in their unlawful detention, just as it had for Walderan Tarbeck.

Did you not make the point that not only was he freed by Tytos but had all his debts forgiven? Why did they simply not petition Tytos if they thought Tywin's actions were illegal?

Not only do the Reynes never petition a higher power, but no one calls Tywin's actions in this matter illegal. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 In many ways, what Tywin does is similar to what all the other vassals are doing; using Lord Tytos' unwillingness to act or demand obeisance to get away with murder, both literal and figurative, by ignoring convention.

Come on. Is this your best argument?

Tywin has a right to enforce the law. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

The difference is that while the Reynes and Tarbecks are not paying back loans and essentially exploiting the power vacuum, Tywin is actively reneging on the feudal contract by assuming legal powers he has no right to.

You do realise the only people to reneging on the feudal contract was the Reynes and Tarbecks when they renounced their fealty. 

Though this argument makes no sense as you are contradicting yourself. Either Tywin is just a citizen with no authority, like you are claiming, so anything he does can not renege the feudal contract. Only Tytos can. So the Reynes and Tarbecks renouncing their fealty over what a powerless citizen has asked of them is not cause for them to renounce their fealty. 

 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

The WOIAF is also meant to be written from a pro-Baratheon (and therefore pro-Lannister) perspective, so it's unlikely that we'd head of Tywin's actions being portrayed particularly negatively.

That is exactly my point. All our information comes from a pro Lannister source. If Tywin's actions were illegal they not record it, make it seem that Tywin had told Tytos. 

The very fact that the History book is on board with what Tywin did shows it was not illegal. Look at how the history book ignores Tywin's involvement in the deaths of Elia and her children. Blaming it on others. 

 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

And also, since this has all gotten rather far off the original topic, I'll point out that you claim Tywin loses battles, but wins wars.

Nope, he wins both battles and wars. You were making a huge deal about one particular battle, as if that outweighs actually winning a war.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, it's worth noting that you have to take an equally narrow definition of "winning" a war to say that he's won wars.  Since, you know, all the things he's fought for, all his life, will eventually come crashing down, meaning he'll have lost all his wars, while someone like Ned, who planned for a post-Robert Kings Landing very poorly, will eventually win all his, because all the things he fought for will end up becoming reality.  Willing to table this and come back to it when TWOW and ADOS are published.

What the fuck kind of argument is this? This topic is about command. 

 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

PS - You can't give Tywin credit for Littlefinger and the Tyrell marriage contract.  That was Tyrion's idea, full stop.

Delegation is an essential part of command. Read up on it. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

 

 And Tywin hates Tyrion, and only sends him because he can't trust anyone else to do the job, not because he thinks he's going to do a superlative job.

Tyrion points out that there are more qualified men to do the job that Tyrion. He is appointed because he is his son and he values his intelligence as well as the fact that he knows that he will be able to stand up to both Cersei and Joffrey 

"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"
Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."
That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead, so I'm all you have left

There were also others he could have appointed Master of Coin. He chose Tyrion despite his only gift with money is spending it. 

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Posted (edited)

Leader-Commander

The commander's charisma and whose leadership will inspire men most to follow them.

1. Eddard

2. Tywin

3. Stannis

 

Battle Tactician

The commander's skill at the tactical aspects of the battle itself.

1. Stannis

2. Eddard

3. Tywin

 

War Strategist 

The commander's talent and skill at waging a campaign on a larger scale than single battles.

1. Stannis

2. Tywin

3. Eddard 

 

Grand Strategist

The commander's skill at strategy larger than the fighting campaign, including politics, logistics, diplomacy, etc...

1. Tywin

2. Stannis

3. Eddard

 

Edited by Aldric

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Posted (edited)

Gotta love how illogical the show is; establish Stannis as a great commander as per Baelish' words; then have him basically charge a cavalry army with his spears at the *back*. It was badass but stupid; not that the show makers would pay it any thought since logistics, reality and consistency are basically things they don't give a damn about.

I'd also like to add one thing; it was always kind of exaggerated how Stannis wouldn't be as 'charismatic' as other veterans in terms of inspiring loyalty. His men are battle tested and well travelled, used to hardships; they appreciate a hard king who's been down in the dirt with them.

Edited by Dejection

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One thing I want to know is where Eddard's supposed reputation comes from in the fandom since I don't really see it in story. In Robert Rebellion: raises banners, rescues Robert at Stoney Sept, fights at battle of the Trident, shows up late to the Sack of KL, goes to Storm's End where the enemies immediately surrender. He also plays a role in the Greyjoy Rebellion but again is never noted as doing anything of note.

So outside of most of the Northern Lords loving Ned can someone show me where his military prowess comes from?

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21 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

One thing I want to know is where Eddard's supposed reputation comes from in the fandom since I don't really see it in story. In Robert Rebellion: raises banners, rescues Robert at Stoney Sept, fights at battle of the Trident, shows up late to the Sack of KL, goes to Storm's End where the enemies immediately surrender. 

So outside of most of the Northern Lords loving Ned can someone show me where his military prowess comes from?

Mostly from his record, but there is one quote where Jorah, a decent source on warfare, ranks him alongside Stannis and Tywin. 

He nodded. "Mind you, Princess, if the lords of the Seven Kingdoms have the wit the gods gave a goose, it will never come to that. The riders have no taste for siegecraft. I doubt they could take even the weakest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, but if Robert Baratheon were fool enough to give them battle …"
"Is he?" Dany asked. "A fool, I mean?"
Ser Jorah considered that for a moment. "Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …"

He is certainly respected in Westeros and respect for men is usually made in warfare rather than intelligence or wit (much to the chagrin of someone like Tyrion). Ned played a prominent role in command of two Civil wars were he ended up the victor, his record for itself and in warfare results carry a long way. 

Quote

He also plays a role in the Greyjoy Rebellion but again is never noted as doing anything of note.

We barely have been told anything about the Greyjoy Rebellion. Stannis is the only commander who has listed off his achievements so we know his role in that war (and his contribution was essential in that war), but beyond that the Wardens of the West and North were with Robert we really don't get too much detail on the various battles on the island. Ned 9and Tywin) are listed as just being behind Robert in the command structure, so clearly it was not of no note. 

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It's interesting because you'd say all three are admired as warriors, or at least as leaders of men. In terms of the battles and wars they fought, meh it's a pretty small sample size and we don't have all the details of those conflicts or see them firsthand. 

But are they anymore experienced or proven than Tarly or Royce or Bolton or Euron really? It's debatable. 

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Stannis, then, I don't know, probably Ned. Tywin isn't far behind Ned though. We didn't really see Ned planning and winning, well, any battles really, but he must have planned and done some during the war.

If not for the Tyrells Tywin would have lost his war against Robb and would have lost KL and his family to Stannis.

Now, if you want to talk about who's a better Regent/King whatever, it's probably Tywin by a country mile, Stannis couldn't get the Tyrells, Robb couldn't get the Tyrells, heck, he couldn't even get Stannis or Renly agree not to kill him if he kept calling himself King of the North.

Who would I want as a King? Stannis. At least then I know all the dick bag CEOs and such would get the dicks or heads cut off.

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On 8/23/2017 at 4:50 PM, Whitering said:

Who would I want as a King? Stannis. At least then I know all the dick bag CEOs and such would get the dicks or heads cut off.

I mostly agree with that, but Tywin was practically king when he was the Hand to Aerys and he did a pretty good job.

In regards to the topic, I agree with the poster much earlier who went Stannis > Tywin > Ned. I feel sorry for Randyll Tarly for not getting his name thrown into this debate. I think he's a very capable strategist and leader of men based on reputation/resume.

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On 6/1/2017 at 1:31 AM, Dejection said:

I'd also like to add one thing; it was always kind of exaggerated how Stannis wouldn't be as 'charismatic' as other veterans in terms of inspiring loyalty. His men are battle tested and well travelled, used to hardships; they appreciate a hard king who's been down in the dirt with them.

It's mainly the nobility that doesn't like him (and vice versa). Asha makes note of the fact that even though the noblemen are grumbling and worried about the march to Winterfell, the soldiers have faith in Stannis. So, even when marching through a snowstorm, with provisions rapidly disappearing, against an incredibly strong castle housing an army that outnumbers their own, the common men trust Stannis to give them victory. 

That always reminded me of a passage about Tiberius in I, Claudius where it's mentioned that even though Tiberius is a bit of a cunt, soldiers would much rather have him in command as opposed to someone likeable and pleasing, because they could trust Tiberius to give them victories, consistent standards of disciplines (both for the grunts and the officers), and fair rewards. 

On 8/28/2017 at 2:57 AM, Xander Baratheon said:

In regards to the topic, I agree with the poster much earlier who went Stannis > Tywin > Ned. I feel sorry for Randyll Tarly for not getting his name thrown into this debate. I think he's a very capable strategist and leader of men based on reputation/resume.

I'm looking forward to TWOW partly to see how well Tarly does in battle. Of the battles we know he fought in, he won one indecisive victory against Robert leading the Tyrell vanguard, he was a subcommander at the Blackwater, and he was sole commander of the battle against the northern force Roose sent to die (and his casualties there were notably high). None of those examples are that impressive, yet he's reputedly one of the best commanders in the south, so hopefully he gets to show that for/against Jon Connington (or Euron potentially). 

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On 8/27/2017 at 11:57 AM, Xander Baratheon said:

I mostly agree with that, but Tywin was practically king when he was the Hand to Aerys and he did a pretty good job.

In regards to the topic, I agree with the poster much earlier who went Stannis > Tywin > Ned. I feel sorry for Randyll Tarly for not getting his name thrown into this debate. I think he's a very capable strategist and leader of men based on reputation/resume.

Nobles under Tywin can do what they want basically, as long as it doesn't overtly piss off the church. Under Stannis, nope. I think Ned was the same in this regard, if he'd heard about Ramsay, Ned would have descended on the Boltons hard.

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Tywin's ineptitude at the Green Fork and Fords should totally dismiss him imo. Any decent commander in those situations would've smashed the entire Northern host and either smashed the Riverlanders under Edmure or simply avoided the battle if the geography was so insanely favorable that there was no way he could win (which didn't seem to be the case). Aside from these two battles, the only battles Tywin commanded personally were the Battle of Tarbeck Hall (where he outnumbered his unprepared enemy several times over yet still almost died), the siege of Castamere (the castle was terribly designed, anyone could have taken it), the subjugation of Harlaw (which I'll assumed he executed competently, though it's nothing exceptional), the sack of King's Landing (not exactly a battle, really), and perhaps the torching of his fleet at Lannisport.

I mean seriously, the Green Fork was just weird. Apparently Tywin had 7,500 heavy cavalry? That is an absolutely ridiculous number. In the English levy system, a mounted man-at-arms or knight was valued the same as ten billmen or archers. And they make up nearly 40% of Tywin's army. There have been several cases in recorded history of a force of thousands of infantry being routed by hundreds or even dozens of knights. Against an almost all-infantry force that he outnumbered, there shouldn't have been a Northern host left after that battle. But the Northmen retreat in good order and Tywin ceases the pursuit to sit down and have a drink. 

Edited by Nihlus

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