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What exactly was Sandor's plan with Arya?


Canon Claude

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He was a lone man, a fugitive on the run, with Arya as his hostage. Was his plan to just ride into the Twins and demand a ransom from Robb and Catelyn? And then join Robb's service?

What would stop Robb from ordering Sandor to be arrested for daring to try and take his sister hostage? And even if he did grudgingly swear to pay Sandor a hefty fee for Arya, did Sandor plan to then say "So, now that that's done, are you hiring?"

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It's important to remember this situation Sandor was in. He had no money, was wanted by the crown, and had no prospects for improvement. So, while it is a bit risky for multiple reasons to just ride up to the Twins as you described, it's the best option he has.

Thats not to say he wouldn't have had a hard time getting an auidience either Robb or Cat, but it was worth trying. And if they did confirm Arya's identity, Robb would have been pretty heavily bound by honor to reward Sandor heavily. If that means lands, so be it. If Sandor says he wants to kill for Robb, pure pragmatism (concerning Sandor's skills) would have justified granting that wish.

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Given how relieved Catelyn would be that Arya is still alive, and given how high of a reputation Sandor has as a fighter, Robb would be really stupid to refuse Sandor Clegane. Forget his personal guard, Sandor Clegane would have been the best bodyguard you could ask for.

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48 minutes ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

It's important to remember this situation Sandor was in. He had no money, was wanted by the crown, and had no prospects for improvement. So, while it is a bit risky for multiple reasons to just ride up to the Twins as you described, it's the best option he has.

Thats not to say he wouldn't have had a hard time getting an auidience either Robb or Cat, but it was worth trying. And if they did confirm Arya's identity, Robb would have been pretty heavily bound by honor to reward Sandor heavily. If that means lands, so be it. If Sandor says he wants to kill for Robb, pure pragmatism (concerning Sandor's skills) would have justified granting that wish.

Catelyn doesn't know the meaning of honor, not in any practical sense. 

Remember when Bronn and his sellsword friend helped Cat, Ser Rodrick, and friends escort Tyrion to the Eyrie?  Bronn did it, expecting great reward.  Tyrion told Bronn after the fact that all Cat would have given him was some silver with a pinched smile and sent him on his way.  From her POV entries she hated Bronn from their departure, but allowed him to continue because she needed his sword.  As soon as she was done with him, he would have been discarded. 

She hated Jon for even existing.  Her last words to the boy that grew up in her house was, "It should have been you."  She wished death on a 14 year-old for the crime of existing.  She wouldn't give two shits about Sandor Clegane.  If he was lucky he would have gotten the Wall.

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12 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

She hated Jon for even existing.  Her last words to the boy that grew up in her house was, "It should have been you."  She wished death on a 14 year-old for the crime of existing.  She wouldn't give two shits about Sandor Clegane.  If he was lucky he would have gotten the Wall.

I fully admit that I have no fondness for Cat but this is a little on the extreme.  She was in some pretty intense emotional distress during this scene.  That does not entirely excuse her for saying such a deplorable statement, but I think all of us are guilty of saying something we don't fully mean at such times.  I think there is little actual textual evidence that she "hated" Jon.  She disliked him, had little use for him and was embarrassed that Ned kept him at Winterfell, but I think hate is a little to strong of an emotion to accuse her of. 

As for why Sandor kept Arya, or what he was planning on doing with her.  He was drunk 99% of the time, on the run from the Crown, broke and screwed over by life.  I think he was desperate to try and get some gold so he could get away from all the fucking knights and bullshit politics, buy himself a plot of land with a lot of chickens on it, a servant girl and a huge wine distillery.  Live out his life eating chicken and drinking, far removed from all the bullshit he's dealt with.  I don't really see him selling his sword to Robb.

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2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

 What would stop Robb from ordering Sandor to be arrested for daring to try and take his sister hostage?

Sandor wouldn't be taking his sister hostage. He would be bringing her back to him. Why would Robb want to arrest a Lannister champion who turns to his side?

Besides, it would be in Robb's best interest to reward Sandor publicly and generously. Sansa was still in Lannister's hands back then, so he would be adamant in making well-known that anyone who risked his life to bring home one of his sisters would receive a great reward.

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

And even if he did grudgingly swear to pay Sandor a hefty fee for Arya, did Sandor plan to then say "So, now that that's done, are you hiring?"

Why not? Indeed, Robb was hiring. He was in the middle of a war, and he could use a great warrior like Sandor, specially when he could contribute with insider information from Joffrey's court.

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I think the dog had it figured out pretty well, to be honest. Robb needed fighting men, swords, lances, knights, for sure. But even more so, methinks, he needed fighters of heroic abilities. Sandor certainly qualifies. Having worked for Joff previously wouldn't be a hit on him in Robb's eyes. Knowing he voluntarily defected from Joff would be a big upside. That's good war time morale and spirit building, right there. Who wouldn't want to fight beside The Hound? It gives them a counterbalance to Gregor. 

 

Robb would have been wary, cautious, and honorable, and would've taken him into service. My guess is, whatever The Hound's reward for bringing Arya would've been, it would've been predicated on him fighting for Robb until the war was settled. Only then would Robb have actually paid him. And the Hound would have had to consider, and probably would've accepted. 

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3 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

It's important to remember this situation Sandor was in. He had no money, was wanted by the crown, and had no prospects for improvement. So, while it is a bit risky for multiple reasons to just ride up to the Twins as you described, it's the best option he has.

Thats not to say he wouldn't have had a hard time getting an auidience either Robb or Cat, but it was worth trying. And if they did confirm Arya's identity, Robb would have been pretty heavily bound by honor to reward Sandor heavily. If that means lands, so be it. If Sandor says he wants to kill for Robb, pure pragmatism (concerning Sandor's skills) would have justified granting that wish.

Of course, Robb could've pulled a Ned Stark on him and declare he doesn't hire the KG deserters with shit for honour.

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Honestly, this is something I've thought of for a long time.

So many people bring up the missed opportunities of the series. Character match-ups that never were, characters who had the chance to show up at certain events but couldn't, all those missed opportunities get talked about to death on this site.

But nobody ever talks about the amazing storyline which would have been Sandor Clegane joining the Stark cause under King Robb. If the Red Wedding hadn't happened, imagine Sandor Clegane riding alongside Smalljon Umber, Wendel Manderly, Dacey Mormont, and the rest.

What makes it fascinating for me is the fact that he would not be welcome, nor would he seek friendship. Honour and desperation alone would prompt Robb to take the Hound into his service, neither liking or trusting him, but that would be fine for Sandor because he's a killer, and if Robb treats him better than Joffrey, then of course he'll kill for the Stark banner. It would be a great conflict for Robb given what he's probably heard from his dad about Tywin using the Mountain to do his dirty work, while he's now forced to do the same with the Mountain's brother. And then the logical thing for him to assuage his conscience would be to send Sandor against the Mountain himself. And of course, we'd get the long-desired Clegane showdown. By this point, Sandor might or might not have softened to the Stark cause, or maybe he just wants revenge on his brother. Maybe Sandor gets killed by his brother, maybe he triumphs and delivers his brother's head to an ecstatic Robb and won-over Arya, or maybe he kills Gregor but dies of his wounds as Arya gives him a last drink of wine.

Regardless of the outcome, it would have been a hell of a storyline with a climax that would have most ASOIAF fans riveted.

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2 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Honestly, this is something I've thought of for a long time.

So many people bring up the missed opportunities of the series. Character match-ups that never were, characters who had the chance to show up at certain events but couldn't, all those missed opportunities get talked about to death on this site.

But nobody ever talks about the amazing storyline which would have been Sandor Clegane joining the Stark cause under King Robb. If the Red Wedding hadn't happened, imagine Sandor Clegane riding alongside Smalljon Umber, Wendel Manderly, Dacey Mormont, and the rest.

What makes it fascinating for me is the fact that he would not be welcome, nor would he seek friendship. Honour and desperation alone would prompt Robb to take the Hound into his service, neither liking or trusting him, but that would be fine for Sandor because he's a killer, and if Robb treats him better than Joffrey, then of course he'll kill for the Stark banner. It would be a great conflict for Robb given what he's probably heard from his dad about Tywin using the Mountain to do his dirty work, while he's now forced to do the same with the Mountain's brother. And then the logical thing for him to assuage his conscience would be to send Sandor against the Mountain himself. And of course, we'd get the long-desired Clegane showdown. By this point, Sandor might or might not have softened to the Stark cause, or maybe he just wants revenge on his brother. Maybe Sandor gets killed by his brother, maybe he triumphs and delivers his brother's head to an ecstatic Robb and won-over Arya, or maybe he kills Gregor but dies of his wounds as Arya gives him a last drink of wine.

Regardless of the outcome, it would have been a hell of a storyline with a climax that would have most ASOIAF fans riveted.

As unlikely as it is that GRRM would have done that, this is a very convincing argument for that scenario.

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Sandor wouldn't be taking his sister hostage. He would be bringing her back to him. Why would Robb want to arrest a Lannister champion who turns to his side?

Besides, it would be in Robb's best interest to reward Sandor publicly and generously. Sansa was still in Lannister's hands back then, so he would be adamant in making well-known that anyone who risked his life to bring home one of his sisters would receive a great reward.

Good observation! The hostage-taking in service of returning Arya could easily have been forgiven, particularly since Sandor's primary goal (just my opinion) was in seeking service with Robb, and not blackmail. And a well-publicized report of how grateful the King of the North was for the return of his sister would encourage similar throughout King's Landing & the Red Keep, all known for greedy plotters and backstabbers.

4 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Ransoming captives is just the norm but all the same I think Sandor wasn't trying to fulfil that role and instead intended to seek favour and rewards for simply delivering Robb's sister to him safely. 

Indeed, Sandor tells Arya that he plans to offer his sword to King Robb, because he's heard Robb is much like his father Lord Eddard, who Sandor got to watch when Ned was in Winterfell and in King's Landing. Sandor also notes that his knowledge (inside the Red Keep, the Lannister family, Kings Landing politics and all the rests) is something Robb would benefit by: "He needs me, whether he know it or not." (quote from memory)

4 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

But even more so, methinks, he needed fighters of heroic abilities. Sandor certainly qualifies. Having worked for Joff previously wouldn't be a hit on him in Robb's eyes. Knowing he voluntarily defected from Joff would be a big upside. That's good war time morale and spirit building, right there. Who wouldn't want to fight beside The Hound? It gives them a counterbalance to Gregor. 

Yeah! I've often thought about how things might have changed, had Sandor joined with King Robb, whether is was by bringing him his sister Arya - or by bringing him his sister Sansa, even better. (Sooner is better; maybe the whole fiasco with Jeyne Westerling could have been avoided.)

47 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Sandor might or might not have softened to the Stark cause

I think he made it pretty clear that he was for Robb Stark. In fact, this was probably one of the things Sandor was brooding over that night on top of the Red Keep, when Sansa staggered up the stairs and nearly pitched over the merlons.

Also note - Sandor was VERY concerned about the likelihood of being seized and clapped in irons by approaching the Twins. That's why he comandeered the hog farmer's cart of salt pork and pigs feet, clothed himself as a farmer, and disguised Arya as his son before entering the castle grounds. He had a plan to get in and get closer as a near-invisible smallfolk kind of guy, and revealing himself and Arya at the last minute only to King Robb.

It was a good plan if they'd arrived a few hours earlier. It was a better plan that they arrived when they did, else both Arya and Sandor would have been dead, too.

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I think it's pretty unlikely that Robb would bring Sandor into his service. Not just because he was a Lannister man, but because he's the Mountain's brother. I don't know that Robb would so readily accept that Sandor actively hated his brother, and would very reasonably fear he'd turn cloak or abandon his duty again. And given the traditional Stark treatment of oathbreakers demonstrated in the first chapter, I don't think Robb would count abandonment of the Lannisters as a point in Sandor's favor. 

Safe conduct to the Wall or the West would probably be the best he could count on from Robb.

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6 hours ago, cgrav said:

I think it's pretty unlikely that Robb would bring Sandor into his service. Not just because he was a Lannister man, but because he's the Mountain's brother. I don't know that Robb would so readily accept that Sandor actively hated his brother, and would very reasonably fear he'd turn cloak or abandon his duty again.

I disagree. It's common knowledge that Sandor hates his brother (his face is a constant reminder of that). Robb also witnessed at Winterfell how Sandor was not particularly well.treated. Seeing how he abandoned the Lannisters at the first battle he had to fought for them, I don't see why Robb would dismiss him out of hand. If he married a Lannister vassal, why would he refuse Lannister fighters? He wouldn't need to include him in his inner circle or make him his personal bodyguard. Just have let him be in the front lines when there are Lannisters to be fought.

Sandor is not more cruel or unreliable that many of the men in Rob's army.And I think that he'd actually get on nicely with some of the Northmen, seeing as they share the same straight-to-business attitude and a distaste for the knightly paraphernalia.

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19 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

It's important to remember this situation Sandor was in. He had no money, was wanted by the crown, and had no prospects for improvement. So, while it is a bit risky for multiple reasons to just ride up to the Twins as you described, it's the best option he has.

Thats not to say he wouldn't have had a hard time getting an auidience either Robb or Cat, but it was worth trying. And if they did confirm Arya's identity, Robb would have been pretty heavily bound by honor to reward Sandor heavily. If that means lands, so be it. If Sandor says he wants to kill for Robb, pure pragmatism (concerning Sandor's skills) would have justified granting that wish.

I am pretty sure he would get an audience
a-    The Northerners love getting their hands dirty. If that apply to direwolves and deserters then surely it applies to someone who brought Princess Arya back
b-    Sandor is quite versed of what was going on in the Lannister’s court. I am pretty sure Robb would be interested to know more about that

Regarding Sandor, I think he wanted a way out of the mess he was in. Robb was his best bet. I can't blame him. Surely he didn't want to end up in Joffrey's or the Mountain's hands

 

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I disagree. It's common knowledge that Sandor hates his brother (his face is a constant reminder of that). Robb also witnessed at Winterfell how Sandor was not particularly well.treated. Seeing how he abandoned the Lannisters at the first battle he had to fought for them, I don't see why Robb would dismiss him out of hand. If he married a Lannister vassal, why would he refuse Lannister fighters? He wouldn't need to include him in his inner circle or make him his personal bodyguard. Just have let him be in the front lines when there are Lannisters to be fought.

Sandor is not more cruel or unreliable that many of the men in Rob's army.And I think that he'd actually get on nicely with some of the Northmen, seeing as they share the same straight-to-business attitude and a distaste for the knightly paraphernalia.

Robb would have a very tough decision to make. On one hand Sandor is a proven warrior, who knows the Lannister plans well and whom the Starks are in great debt with. Robb was winning the battles but he was losing the war. A good marital matchup could either bring a neutral player (House Arryn?) into the mix or could serve as possible leverage for the Northerners to pull out of the war with their heads held high. If for example, Robb was to marry Arya to Willas then the Lannisters would be the ruling family in all by name. The Lannisters would have to forgive the Starks of all their crime and thank the Tyrells for helping them win the war and bringing the Riverlands and the North back to the fold. One bad step from the lions and they would risk having a full blown rebellion with Tyrells, Arryns, Tullys and Starks going for the jugular.

On the other hand, Sandor was a Lannister man. He might have been sent by Tywin to either kill the young wolf or to free Jamie. 

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13 hours ago, zandru said:

I think he made it pretty clear that he was for Robb Stark. In fact, this was probably one of the things Sandor was brooding over that night on top of the Red Keep, when Sansa staggered up the stairs and nearly pitched over the merlons.

I've just re-read this section, and finishes aSoS again. I didn't catch any of it. Quotes?

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11 minutes ago, devilish said:

On the other hand, Sandor was a Lannister man. He might have been sent by Tywin to either kill the young wolf or to free Jamie. 

True, but Robb didn't need to allow Sandor to come close to him armed, or go anywhere near Riverrun. Sandor would be the first to understand that he needed to earn Robb's trust, and that he could only do that doing notable feats in battle against the Lannisters.

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

True, but Robb didn't need to allow Sandor to come close to him armed, or go anywhere near Riverrun. Sandor would be the first to understand that he needed to earn Robb's trust, and that he could only do that doing notable feats in battle against the Lannisters.

The Hound had been in Lannister and then Baratheon courts for many many years. During that time he earned their trust and because of it he had attended thousands of meetings and had made loads of contacts with people close to either the king or Tywin. He also served as Joffrey's personal guard a role he probably inherited after shadowing Tywin for a couple of times. That means that he may have learnt about secret entrances to the red keep or even CR. Could Robb exploit that? Does Sandor have enough contacts willing to help him get in those places? Is he willing to sell those secrets to his new owner? That's anyone's guess.

Under such circumstances he cant be treated as a common soldier. Doing so would equal to a death sentence. Sandor would be targeted  and Lannister men would either try to kill him or get him as hostage. With Robb losing the war, its not very wise to send him away too far either. Riverlands bannermen would probably use him as leverage to go back in the crown's good graces.

Robb's best bet is to keep him close. Sandor provides Robb with great insight about how Tywin and the Mountain operate and what to expect if he decides to invade the Westerlands/Crownlands. He's also serves as a great propaganda tool at a time when the king in the North need it the most. Sure the North had been invaded and its not possible to move there for the time being. However the North is so close of winning that even Joffrey's own personal guard had decided to switch sides. That alone can raise morale and rally the troops. 

Arya and the Hound would not change the tides of battle. However, if used correctly, they could serve as a stalemate. A marriage between Arya and Willas would bring peace to the land giving the Northerners the breathing space needed to reconquer their lands. It would be within Tyrells interest to protect their new allies (Riverlands and North) and it would be within the Lannisters interest not to piss the rose too much as they have the necessary allies and men to wipe them out completely. 

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