What exactly was Sandor's plan with Arya?

[zandru]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

I've just re-read this section, and finishes aSoS again. I didn't catch any of it. Quotes?

No quotes; it's pure speculation. All we know from the text was that Sandor was on top of the keep, vewing the many fires, probably the positioning of troops, destruction of cover, the situation on the Blackwater, etc. And he was uncommonly angry. He made a point to Sansa that he was nothing more than a killer, and that men had a choice of being wolves or sheep.

This is interesting, coming from a man whose primary job was sheep dog - that is, one who protects the sheep from the wolves. We can speculate that Sandor wasn't pleased with the prospect of having to go out and kill on behalf of a kid king who was beginning to put Mad Aerys to shame - and who had caused Lord Eddard Stark, possibly the first really decent lord Sandor had had contact with, to be killed. Sandor told Arya, much later, that Robb had the reputation of being like his father. He also confessed doing nothing to stop Lord Eddard's beheading - as if he regretted Ned's death.

All of this about Sandor's motives is total speculation. The guy doesn't talk much, but apparently broods a lot.

[Protagoras]

20 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Sandor wouldn't be taking his sister hostage. He would be bringing her back to him. Why would Robb want to arrest a Lannister champion who turns to his side?

Besides, it would be in Robb's best interest to reward Sandor publicly and generously. Sansa was still in Lannister's hands back then, so he would be adamant in making well-known that anyone who risked his life to bring home one of his sisters would receive a great reward.

This and especially the latter part.

Sandor has just gone from being enemy to neutral and tries (through somewhat dubious methods) to earn friendship. Sending him away without suitable reward or even worse , arresting him will hit home a message the the king in the North is nothing but an ungrateful jerk who is a cheap niggard and unwilling to reward those willing to serve him. 

After all, Robb will in this case still getting his sister back due to some unexpected assistance. To not reciproke would be to more or less send the signal that "if you assist me, I still might not reward you for it". That you are not worthy of reward due to feat but that those feats should be taken for granted (if we believe Tyrion, this is a genuine Stark weakness). So, basically - people who are not so invested will give it a pass. Bacause if I am at King´s landing and have the opportunity to free Sansa, at great risk for myself, I will certainly not do so if I am met with scorn and my motives questioned. I want Robb to basically throw himself at me, kiss me like a brother and give me all I am asking for, as well as things I am not asking for, in gratitude. 

Sadly, for Robb, this was never meant to happen - but it would have been interesting to see if Robb had proven to handle it like a king or as stupidRobb, filled with morality about motives, like Catelyn did according to Tyrion. Because Tyrion is right, service should be rewarded and you are less of a ruler if you fail to do so. 

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Protagoras said:

This and especially the latter part.

Sandor has just gone from being enemy to neutral and tries (through somewhat dubious methods) tries to earn friendship. Sending him away without suitable reward or even worse , arresting him will hit home a message the the king in the North is nothing but an ungrateful jerk who is a cheap niggard and unwilling to reward those willing to serve him. 

After all, Robb will in this case still getting his sister back due to some unexpected assistance. To not reciproke would be to more or less send the signal that "if you assist me, I still might not reward you for it". That you are not worthy of reward due to feat but that those feats should be taken for granted (if we believe Tyrion, this is a genuine Stark weakness). So, basically - people who are not so invested will give it a pass. Bacause if I am at King´s landing and have the opportunity to free Sansa, at great risk for myself, I will certainly not do so if I am met with scorn and my motives questioned. I want Robb to basically throw himself at me, kiss me like a brother and give me all I am asking for, as well as things I am not asking for, in gratitude. 

Sadly, for Robb, this was never meant to happen - but it would have been interesting to see if Robb had proven to handle it like a king or as stupidRobb, filled with morality about motives, like Catelyn did according to Tyrion. Because Tyrion is right, service should be rewarded and you are less of a ruler if you fail to do so. 

Robb can't punish the man who brought his sister back. With Willas still single and the Tyrells not 100% comfortable with sleeping with their own enemy just yet, Arya could serve as a dignified way for the North and the Riverlands to pull out of the war and still retain their lands and titles. It would be within the Tyrells interest to make sure to protect their new found allies as they might need their backing next time the lions roar at the wrong direction. 

[Protagoras]

51 minutes ago, devilish said:

Robb can't punish the man who brought his sister back.

Maybe my opinions of Robb are not particulary high (considering his overemotional reactions, differential treatments and the way he treated Tyrion as shit in the first book), so I could certainly see him treat Sandor poorly or even arrest him, with a "why should I reward a robber knight, my father never made deals with criminals who kidnap" logic, who might prevail. Still, he might not, so it would be interesting to see. 

Quote

With Willas still single and the Tyrells not 100% comfortable with sleeping with their own enemy just yet, Arya could serve as a dignified way for the North and the Riverlands to pull out of the war and still retain their lands and titles. It would be within the Tyrells interest to make sure to protect their new found allies as they might need their backing next time the lions roar at the wrong direction. 

Ehh?

Why would the Tyrells be interested at all? Mace want the crown, not some splinter realm in the North and a marriage to the sister of a recent king is hardly what he had in mind, since he want his daughter (and his blood) on the throne, the real throne close to him who has been the center for a long time. And while certainly the Tyrells can accept a Stark marriage (as seen by Sansa) there is little reason why they simply just woudn´t want Robb and the other siblings dead so Arya can inherit. As I have said before in another thread, the idea of a Tyrell-Stark alliance has little logic going for it. The only possible counter I can see is if Robb fight to install Mace as the king of the southron part, while Robb marries Margaery. Arya is far too insignificant to warrant an alliance. 

And even if that happens, there is no way that bloc would keep its lands and titles. Mace wants an united Realm under Margaery and whoever that sits on the throne. Mace would take the marriage, force the North to swear fielty and at best, at best, Robb can continue beeing lord paramount of the North. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Maybe my opinions of Robb are not particulary high (considering his overemotional reactions, differential treatments and the way he treated Tyrion as shit in the first book), so I could certainly see him treat Sandor poorly or even arrest him, with a "why should I reward a robber knight, my father never made deals with criminals who kidnap" logic, who might prevail. Still, he might not, so it would be interesting to see. 

Ehh?

Why would the Tyrells be interested at all? Mace want the crown, not some splinter realm in the North and a marriage to the sister of a recent king is hardly what he had in mind, since he want his daughter (and his blood) on the throne, the real throne close to him who has been the center for a long time. And while certainly the Tyrells can accept a Stark marriage (as seen by Sansa) there is little reason why they simply just woudn´t want Robb and the other siblings dead so Arya can inherit. As I have said before in another thread, the idea of a Tyrell-Stark alliance has little logic going for it. The only possible counter I can see is if Robb fight to install Mace as the king of the southron part, while Robb marries Margaery. Arya is far too insignificant to warrant an alliance. 

And even if that happens, there is no way that bloc would keep its lands and titles. Mace wants an united Realm under Margaery and whoever that sits on the throne. Mace would take the marriage, force the North to swear fielty and at best, at best, Robb can continue beeing lord paramount of the North. 

I never said that Robb wouldn't be expected to bend the knee and remove that silly title of his. What I was suggesting is something within these lines. Robb and Mace agree to meet. The Tyrells will accept Robb’s conditional surrender on the crown’s behalf and will take Arya first as ward and then as Willas’ wife when she comes at age. Robb will remain in Riverrun with his 20k men while awaiting the crown's verdict. Its within the crown's interest that it would be a yes. I mean who would want a horde of 120k (ie Tully, Northern and Tyrells) pissed off men in KL? That would be messy wouldn't it?

Anyway the war will be over, Westeros will be at peace and the Starks will be allowed to go back to the Northern wasteland they call home and reconquer their lands as they should do. The crown is better off that way. I mean they got two wards in Sansa and Arya which is more assuring than anything Roose Bolton can give or promise.

What’s in for the Tyrells?

Mace Tyrell will be remembered as the ones who brought peace to Westeros. Songs will be written about it for ages to come, something Mace would love and cherish for the rest of his life. The Reach Lords will also be relieved. The Riverlands is filled with castles and the North is too wild, too cold and to vast to conquer. That expedition would have costed them a fortune in terms of men and resources. 

On top of that, The Tyrells would join houses with a powerful house who happen to share blood with two other powerful houses (Arryn and Tully).  Sure, Joffrey will be the undisputed king and Margaery will generate alot of nice babies for him which will make grandpa proud. However can the stag really risk pissing off the Rose now? The Lannisters are hated by almost everybody while the Rose can rely on the Starks, the Tullys and possibly the Arryns (blood ties with Arya) and the Martells (they don’t like the Tyrells but they surely hate the Lannisters more). It’s within Joffrey's interest to be extremely grateful towards those who won the peace for him. A good starting point would be by rewarding Garlan for the service rendered. Did Mace mention Brightwater’s keep? Oh no, that was meant for Loras. Garlan always wanted Storm’s end. You need firm hands there and whose better to rule these lands on the king’s behalf then a proven general like Garlan, the hero of Blackwater’s bay and the king’s future brother in law?

Conclusion: By the time Arya and Sandor reached the twins, the war was already lost. However, careful diplomatic negotiations could have resulted in Joffrey being king in all but name. 

[Protagoras]

23 minutes ago, devilish said:

I never said that Robb wouldn't be expected to bend the knee and remove that silly title of his. What I was suggesting is something within these lines. Robb and Mace agree to meet. The Tyrells will accept Robb’s conditional surrender on the crown’s behalf and will take Arya first as ward and then as Willas’ wife when she comes at age. Robb will remain in Riverrun with his 20k men while awaiting the crown's verdict. Its within the crown's interest that it would be a yes. I mean who would want a horde of 120k (ie Tully, Northern and Tyrells) pissed off men in KL? That would be messy wouldn't it?

Anyway the war will be over, Westeros will be at peace and the Starks will be allowed to go back to the Northern wasteland they call home and reconquer their lands as they should do. The crown is better off that way. I mean they got two wards in Sansa and Arya which is more assuring than anything Roose Bolton can give or promise.

Well, you did say "retain their lands and titles". I assumed you meant the kingship too 

Anyways, now suddenly the Starks shouldn´t be interested. Their army hasn´t been beatened, they get basically nothing than a return for status quo, something they would have had anyways if they hadn´t decided to revolt in the first place. And they did that revolt due to reasons, reasons that I don´t think they would want to fold. It certainly beats dying of course but there is little reason to believe that it would be the case. Still, I can see this happen, so its not a bad idea, just an unlikely one, due to the emotions in play.  

And btw - we are off topic. Sandors plan with Arya and Robbs reaction to it has little in common with a possible Tyrell/Stark bid to end the war. 

[devilish]

53 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

Well, you did say "retain their lands and titles". I assumed you meant the kingship too 

Anyways, now suddenly the Starks shouldn´t be interested. Their army hasn´t been beatened, they get basically nothing than a return for status quo, something they would have had anyways if they hadn´t decided to revolt in the first place. And they did that revolt due to reasons, reasons that I don´t think they would want to fold. It certainly beats dying of course but there is little reason to believe that it would be the case. Still, I can see this happen, so its not a bad idea, just an unlikely one, due to the emotions in play.  

And btw - we are off topic. Sandors plan with Arya and Robbs reaction to it has little in common with a possible Tyrell/Stark bid to end the war. 

Robb is not stupid. He knows that he simply doesn't have the men to fight the Tyrell-Lannister horde. He's locked in the Riverlands with just a measly 20k army who would be easily wiped out by the Lannister-Tyrells army if they want to. That would pave the way to a loss of lands, titles and lives.

By bending the knee to the Tyrells and accepting their protection, he would be surrendering in a dignified manner. The Tyrells would be bound by blood through a marriage with Arya which means that he would be treated fairly. The Redwynes will probably give his army a lift home soon afterwards which would allow Robb to reconquer the North.

The biggest winner of it all will be the Tyrells who will be seen as the catalyst for peace and the real rulers of Westeros. If Joffrey treats them badly then the Tyrells can easily rebel knowing that they will be supported by the Tullys, Starks and probably the Arryns. If Robb decides to act funny then the Lannisters and the Riverlands (who lost so much because of his mother) will not be happy about it. However the Lannisters will also get their share. The North is too vast and wild for any Southern army to conquer and any expedition there will be very risky. A unified Westeros need the Starks on board and Robb need to return to the fold.

I agree that Sandor's plan with Arya has little to do with what I said. However, it does give Robb options that he didn't had before. He would be very stupid from his part to punish rather then reward the man who brought his sister back in one piece

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

 

I agree that Sandor's plan with Arya has little to do with what I said. However, it does give Robb options that he didn't had before. He would be very stupid from his part to punish rather then reward the man who brought his sister back in one piece

Given how Robb ended up, I'm not sure Robb's consistently good judgment is something we can count on.

I maintain that Sandor's desertion of duty during battle would give anyone serious doubt about taking him into service. Rewarded, yes, but I don't think he'd be taken into Robb's service.

[snow is the man]

On 5/8/2017 at 2:14 PM, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

I fully admit that I have no fondness for Cat but this is a little on the extreme.  She was in some pretty intense emotional distress during this scene.  That does not entirely excuse her for saying such a deplorable statement, but I think all of us are guilty of saying something we don't fully mean at such times.  I think there is little actual textual evidence that she "hated" Jon.  She disliked him, had little use for him and was embarrassed that Ned kept him at Winterfell, but I think hate is a little to strong of an emotion to accuse her of. 

As for why Sandor kept Arya, or what he was planning on doing with her.  He was drunk 99% of the time, on the run from the Crown, broke and screwed over by life.  I think he was desperate to try and get some gold so he could get away from all the fucking knights and bullshit politics, buy himself a plot of land with a lot of chickens on it, a servant girl and a huge wine distillery.  Live out his life eating chicken and drinking, far removed from all the bullshit he's dealt with.  I don't really see him selling his sword to Robb.

she definetly hated jon. She made it her mission t make him feel like an outsider.

[snow is the man]

If rob were to kill sandor after bringing him hissister it would have been dishonarable. And sandor as far as I know never actually hurt the northman (except the butchers boy.)

[zandru]

If we hadn't had Walder Frey's tasteless afterdinner entertainment at the Twins, Sandor and Arya would have successfully worked their way into King Robb's presence, one way or another. For such a big man, Sandor seems to be able to lurk like a cat, always appearing out of the shadows. He "vanished" by dressing in smallfolk garb and keeping his head down. Moreover, nobody has ever looked twice at Arya.

So, what would Robb the King have done? After the requisite hugs (maybe delegated to Lady Catelyn), Sandor could have made his case for service. The man doesn't talk much, but when he does, he's surprisingly eloquent and in few words. You can bet he'll have thought of what to say to best make his case and contradict what they may have heard about him.

Would Arya have spoken up to tell her brother what a bad, bad man he was, and how Robb needed to hang him, asap? I'm guessing no: Over and over again, Arya has thought of speaking up to contradict the Hound in his not-entirely honest interactions with other people - but she doesn't betray him. Maybe some part fear, maybe some part recognizing that in each situation, it would hurt her, too to expose him. At this point in the story, Arya hasn't yet developed any liking towards the man. Plus, it's also likely that Lady Cat would have immediately seized her filthy disreputable daughter and dragged her off for bathing, hair washing and cutting, and getting placed into a nice girly-girl dress.

Bottom line - the Hound would be accepted as the Hound of the North. Robb and his men would have gone on to take Moat Cailin and thereafter the rest of the North. And they'd all be then available when Lord Commander Jon Snow called upon them to fight the Others.

[John Suburbs]

Let's also not forget that the Brotherhood wasn't exactly holding Arya for the purest of motives either. She was just as much a hostage for them as she was for the Hound.

So for whomever brought Arya back to Robb, it would matter a great deal how they did it. If they sent him a message saying, we have your sister, what will you give for her safe return, that's not going to earn much gratitude from Robb or Catelyn. But it seems like the Hound, at least, was intent on simply entering the Twins and handing Arya over with no preconditions. In that case, he probably would have taken a position somewhere in Robb's army if offered, and if not he would accept a bag a gold (probably mentioning how much he lost to the Brotherhood) and be on his way. After that, his only option would be to jump ship to Essos and sign up with a company.

[The Mountain that Cries]

On 5/8/2017 at 11:59 AM, The Mountain That Flies said:

It's important to remember this situation Sandor was in. He had no money, was wanted by the crown, and had no prospects for improvement. So, while it is a bit risky for multiple reasons to just ride up to the Twins as you described, it's the best option he has.

Thats not to say he wouldn't have had a hard time getting an auidience either Robb or Cat, but it was worth trying. And if they did confirm Arya's identity, Robb would have been pretty heavily bound by honor to reward Sandor heavily. If that means lands, so be it. If Sandor says he wants to kill for Robb, pure pragmatism (concerning Sandor's skills) would have justified granting that wish.

This. very much

[devilish]

13 hours ago, cgrav said:

Given how Robb ended up, I'm not sure Robb's consistently good judgment is something we can count on.

I maintain that Sandor's desertion of duty during battle would give anyone serious doubt about taking him into service. Rewarded, yes, but I don't think he'd be taken into Robb's service.

I think people are a tad unfair with Robb TBH. Sure he messed up with the Westerling girl and by allowing Theon to return to the iron islands. However, most mistakes were made by people who should have known better.

-     Tyrion’s kidnap. What the hell was Cat thinking? She took matters on her hands by arresting Tyrion and taking him to the Vale from all places to be executed. That’s not something a Lady should do or decide. Tyrion is of higher nobility standing then she is (ie he’s the queen’s brother) and such matters should be judged by the king.
-    Ned failed coup d'etat. The Starks were as comfortable in KL as a lion would be in the middle of the ocean. They were the new kids of the block, with no connections and no idea of how politics work there. What was Ned thinking in first giving Cersei a kickstart by confronting her about her ‘secret’ and then try to snatch the boy? He simply lacked the people to do that and there was no chance in hell that the City Guard would prefer him to the queen. You’ll expect Ned to know that its not a good for a wolf to cause problems in KL. He became warden of the North specifically of that.
-    Hoster’s mishandling Walder Frey. What’s the point of setting a marital alliance with the North if you then piss off the man who owns the fast route between the North and the Riverlands? Sure, its not nice for a bannerman not to answer to your call. There again, you either deal with that bannerman by removing him from his lands or else you let that slide. Robert’s rebellion might have been righteous but it was still against the ruling family. Others didn’t answer the call immediately (Greyjoys, Lannisters etc) and Hoster didn’t try to piss them off. Thanks to Hoster’s actions Robb was forced to promise his hand to marriage to someone whose irrelevant in the greater scheme. 
-    The Riverlands response to the invasion. Ok The Westerlands > The Riverlands and the land hardly makes it easy for the defenders to do their job. However, they could have done a better job in it. By the time Robb came to the rescue Riverrun was under siege, The Lannisters had reached Harrenhal and Edmure was captured. They should all be ashamed about how easy it was for the Lannisters to conquer their lands.
-    The king in the North thing. What the hell were they thinking? Compared to the Lannister army (40k+) and Renly’s army (100k) Robb’s army was a piss in a pot. He lacked the men to go solo let alone defend his crown.
-    Cat releasing Jamie. That’s actually treason. 

When you compare him to other boys ofa similar age like Joffrey, Prince Reek, Sweet Robin and ‘let me steal a dragon’ Quentin, Robb did well. The difference is that while Robin and Joffrey were protected by those who knew better, Robb was thrown in the deep end with little guidance and he was undermined in every way possible.
 

[zandru]

6 hours ago, devilish said:

When you compare him to other boys ofa similar age like Joffrey, Prince Reek, Sweet Robin and ‘let me steal a dragon’ Quentin, Robb did well. The difference is that while Robin and Joffrey were protected by those who knew better, Robb was thrown in the deep end with little guidance and he was undermined in every way possible.

Thanks for this! In my opinion Robb did much better than expected; this was no doubt behind his bannermen pre-emptively declaring him King of the North. Which didn't turn out to be that good a thing for him, but then Robb was the only one of the Five Kings who wasn't actually seeking king-hood. And that's another plus for him, in my book.

[devilish]

12 minutes ago, zandru said:

Thanks for this! In my opinion Robb did much better than expected; this was no doubt behind his bannermen pre-emptively declaring him King of the North. Which didn't turn out to be that good a thing for him, but then Robb was the only one of the Five Kings who wasn't actually seeking king-hood. And that's another plus for him, in my book.

I feel sorry for him. Such great potential shouldn't have been wasted the way it did. If Robb was Tywin's grandson then the GOT series would have ended way before its time

[cgrav]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

When you compare him to other boys ofa similar age like Joffrey, Prince Reek, Sweet Robin and ‘let me steal a dragon’ Quentin, Robb did well. The difference is that while Robin and Joffrey were protected by those who knew better, Robb was thrown in the deep end with little guidance and he was undermined in every way possible.
 

I wouldn't say his disadvantaged circumstances are a credit to his judgment. Marrying Jayne was beyond poor judgment. It was essentially treason to his own cause. Add to that the execution of Rickard Karstark and it looks like Robb's only area of sound judgment is the battlefield. The Starks are simply terrible at politics, by the author's design. 

Other people's poor decisions don't improve Robb's, either. Decisions are judged by their predictable results, and the loss of the Karstarks' confidence was entirely predictable.

Many consequences are totally unpredictable, but marrying a westerner and executing a bannerman... Robb put himself in that corner.

[The Sunland Lord]

His plan was to gain some profit (in any form) from her, but he failed. 

He added some more to his personality instead, which is writer/creators' intention. We'll see why.

[devilish]

4 hours ago, cgrav said:

I wouldn't say his disadvantaged circumstances are a credit to his judgment. Marrying Jayne was beyond poor judgment. It was essentially treason to his own cause. Add to that the execution of Rickard Karstark and it looks like Robb's only area of sound judgment is the battlefield. The Starks are simply terrible at politics, by the author's design. 

Other people's poor decisions don't improve Robb's, either. Decisions are judged by their predictable results, and the loss of the Karstarks' confidence was entirely predictable.

Many consequences are totally unpredictable, but marrying a westerner and executing a bannerman... Robb put himself in that corner.

It was the typical reaction of a kid who had adults bending the knee at him and crowning him as kid after doing something right. Its only fair for him to start thinking that he's the master of the world and can therefore do what he please. Nearly every kid who were given a job way beyond their maturity level went overboard, from Joffrey 'lets kill Ned in front of his daughter' Baratheon to Quentin 'I steal a dragon' Martell right to Theon 'Im prince because I captured some fort in middle of acres upon acres of furious enemies around' Greyjoy, Danny 'let this random healer try to cure my husband because Im khaleesi and no one dares to piss me off' Targeryan and Ramsey 'lets kidnap and marry a noblewomen and then starve her to death' Snow

His surname has nothing to do with it. What has to do with it, is the fact, that people who should know better had failed to step up (and in some cases they placed obstacles around the boy). From the Northern lords who should have never contemplated in crowning him king right to the Tullys who knows politics well and should have done better. 

The Tullys take the biscuit for me. I can sympathise with the Greatjon who probably think that everyone fights like the backward savages he face on a weekly basis (ie the wildlings) or Roose who had a clear agenda. But the Tullys? Seriously? These people know how important alliances are. They know how difficult their land is to defend and surely they had all the time in the world to come with contingency plans about it (which include making sure that the roads from North/Vale to the Riverlands is kept safe and accessible). Instead, Cat goes on kidnapping Tyrion and then she freed Jamie, Hoster pissed off Walder who made Robb pay for years of grievances and Edmure had absolutely no idea about military warfare. Seriously if I was Robb the day dad died I would have bartered Jamie for Sansa & Ned's bones and then marched my armies straight home. Let the Tullys sort their own problems. Its their land after all.  

[Gigei]

Quote

I was Robb the day dad died I would have bartered Jamie for Sansa & Ned's bones and then marched my armies straight home.

Yeah, at the time I was pretty mad at Robb for not trading Jamie for Sansa. His reasoning was that Jamie was worth a lot more than a girl therefore he shouldn't trade since he would be on the losing side of that transaction. I really do understand why Cat freed Jamie. It was totally wrong, of course, but she must have have felt so desperate since Robb basically had no plans of saving Sansa. This is the main reason why I wasn't super upset about what happened to Robb. I was more sad that Dacey and the other Northerners died.