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Aegon Blackfyre or Aegon Targaryen


Rosetta Stone

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Reading this discussion made me really question the identity of young Griff.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145906-daenerys-young-griff-and-stannis/

I do not believe Varys lied to the practically dead Kevan Lannister.  Varys is not aware of it if Aegon is a Blackfyre. 

Jon Connington has to suspect at some level that his foster son may be an unwitting impostor.  If that is the case he is taking a big gamble that the Martells would not find out the truth.  Would the Martells support a Blackfyre? 

Does it even matter whether he's the real Aegon or not?  Preston Jacobs brought up an important detail in this video episode.  Specifically, King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children so it goes without saying that Aegon and any other child of Rhaegar doesn't have any claims to the iron throne. 

If the Martells support Aegon, what would they have to do to beat the Lannisters without dragons?  The Lannister+Tyrell partnership looks invincible to me.

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Kevan wasn't alone there, the whole room was crawling with his little birds. 

Besides, as Littlefinger tells Sansa, you really have to commit to a lie and act like it's true even you're alone. 

As for the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, they're gonna spread themselves thin trying to fight

-Aegon (and the Martells, possibly)

-Euron

- The Faith

- Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood

- Stannis

- whatever Littlefinger's planning

Beating those odds would be incredibly difficult for a united regime, but for one as fragmented and divided as this one in the wake of Kevan's death it'd be pretty much impossible. 

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1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Does it even matter whether he's the real Aegon or not?  Preston Jacobs brought up an important detail in this video episode.  Specifically, King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children so it goes without saying that Aegon and any other child of Rhaegar doesn't have any claims to the iron throne. 

This was never any sort of formal decree, just rumors and speculation. Rhaegar's children were never disinherited. And even if they had been, it wouldn't mean anything, since Rhaegar was extremely popular and respected while everyone knew his father was insane.

So yes, it would absolutely mean everything whether or not Aegon was real or false. Preston is, once again, dead wrong. The Targaryen name still holds some sway and popularity in the seven kingdoms, while the Blackfyres are almost universally despised. Outside of maybe a handful of minor Houses in the Reach, everyone considers them as pretenders and remember fighting a war to drive them out. 

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I think Faegon is more likely the Blaegon.

The Blackfyre history is pretty obscure in the main series. I think it would be clumsy to shoehorn a major Blackfyre-related plot in without establishing greater relevance of the rebellions to the present day story. What would be the purpose of adding such a complication?

The rebellions were about kin fighting each other, so I don't think it's even necessary for Aegon and Dany to have separate lineage. They share a paternal line but have different mothers, just like the Blackfyres (differences of legitimacy notwithstanding). The rebellion could replay just fine with two Targaryens.
 

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@cgrav
We have a POV character who not only fought in a Blackfyre rebellion, but KILLED the last known Blackfyre. 
This isn't some far-off, hundred-year-old conflict, this is something that has been happening on and off for a very long time. It's been sprinkled into the books sparingly, but it's always been there. 

I think the inclusions of Selmy as a POV and the Golden Company (the literal Blackfyre army) are huge hints of what's to come. I also expect we'll get even more Blackfyre foreshadowing in the next book before he's revealed. 

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He's a Blackfyre that's the whole point of the Blackfyre Rebellion story line. I'll add that he may actually be a Blackfyre and Targaryen not that those are not the same thing anyway but there is always a chance that he is Illyrio's son with a long lost Targaryen princess and Illyrio's mother was a Blackfyre but that's another story.

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1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

This was never any sort of formal decree, just rumors and speculation. Rhaegar's children were never disinherited. And even if they had been, it wouldn't mean anything, since Rhaegar was extremely popular and respected while everyone knew his father was insane.

So yes, it would absolutely mean everything whether or not Aegon was real or false. Preston is, once again, dead wrong. The Targaryen name still holds some sway and popularity in the seven kingdoms, while the Blackfyres are almost universally despised. Outside of maybe a handful of minor Houses in the Reach, everyone considers them as pretenders and remember fighting a war to drive them out. 

Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  That's the logical thing for Aerys to do to prevent the grandson of someone he doesn't like from a family he doesn't like or trust from inheriting his throne.  He made Viserys his heir and he has the authority to do that.  Viserys became King Viserys III when Queen Rhaella crowned him on Dragonstone.  Rhaenys, Aegon, and any other child of Rhaegar got kicked out of the line of inheritance.

 

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I don't think it matters to Varys, Illyrio or even to Doran at this point if Aegon is a Targaryen, Blackfyre, Brightflame or Illryrio's son. They want the Iron Throne and will do and say whatever is necessary to get it. With Dany MIA and Aegon winning some battles in the Stormlands Arianne will take her opportunity to become Queen by seducing Aegon with her magical nipples. Dorne gets their Queen and Aegon get's the immediate support of Dorne's spears. At this point Jon Con and company really can't afford to wait for Dany to come to Westeros. They don't even know if she ever plans to come to Westeros and when they hear of her disappearance they won't know if she is even alive.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  That's the logical thing for Aerys to do to prevent the grandson of someone he doesn't like from a family he doesn't like or trust from inheriting his throne.  He made Viserys his heir and he has the authority to do that.  Viserys became King Viserys III when Queen Rhaella crowned him on Dragonstone.  Rhaenys, Aegon, and any other child of Rhaegar got kicked out of the line of inheritance.

 

Viserys supposedly became heir apparent only after Rhaegar was dead, but they never crowned him. He was named "king" only after Aerys and Aegon and everyone else had died, and by that point the only people who called him "king" were probably Willem Darry and the handful of Targ loyalists left. No one else cared. 
My point remains: nobody of note paid any attention to Aerys' threats of disheartening his son's line. And his word now would mean even less than it did back then. 

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7 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

For me is Aegon Targaryen. I enjoy more the fact that Dany could kill his own family to achieve what she wants (the IT) or just because she thinks he's a fake and the prophecy was simply wrong.

Aegon, if real, wouldn't be the only family out there ;-)

5 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  That's the logical thing for Aerys to do to prevent the grandson of someone he doesn't like from a family he doesn't like or trust from inheriting his throne.  He made Viserys his heir and he has the authority to do that.  Viserys became King Viserys III when Queen Rhaella crowned him on Dragonstone.  Rhaenys, Aegon, and any other child of Rhaegar got kicked out of the line of inheritance.

And when Viserys suffered a lethal case of molten gold and died without offspring, the formerly skipped claimants are back in the game. It's not like anyone would give much weight to a mad-as-a-hatter-king's decree, anyway, if such a degree even existed.

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9 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Reading this discussion made me really question the identity of young Griff.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145906-daenerys-young-griff-and-stannis/

I do not believe Varys lied to the practically dead Kevan Lannister. 

This is the lie that Varys will have to keep to the end of his days, and then some. Let's hear Littlefinger explaining the concept:

"Some things are best left unsaid, sweetling."
"Even when we are alone?"
"Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"
 
Maintain the legend without making any allowances: "oh, we're alone", "oh, he's dying", "oh, he's trustworthy", "fuck it, it's Friday", etc. Just stick to the story, always. Simple and reasonably failproof.
 
9 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Does it even matter whether he's the real Aegon or not?  Preston Jacobs brought up an important detail in this video episode.  Specifically, King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children so it goes without saying that Aegon and any other child of Rhaegar doesn't have any claims to the iron throne.

 

Then, unsurprisingly, Preston is clueless about how succession works, specifically in Westeros. If the matter of succession was as simple as "king said so! he even wrote it down! case closed", then no succession war would ever happen. The Dance of the Dragons wouldn't have happened.

When Bob kicked the bucket, the world expected Stannis to jump his nephew's claim, even though nobody had yet known about the twincest accusations.

"Claims" are a murky business. Inheritance is tricky. That Preston managed to miss that is, frankly, an impressive feat, considering it's one of the major points of the political facet of the story.

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13 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145906-daenerys-young-griff-and-stannis/

I do not believe Varys lied to the practically dead Kevan Lannister.  Varys is not aware of it if Aegon is a Blackfyre. 

 

That's a twist.  The most informed information broker got tricked.  The trickster getting tricked.  That's not out of the question in this story.

10 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  That's the logical thing for Aerys to do to prevent the grandson of someone he doesn't like from a family he doesn't like or trust from inheriting his throne.  He made Viserys his heir and he has the authority to do that.  Viserys became King Viserys III when Queen Rhaella crowned him on Dragonstone.  Rhaenys, Aegon, and any other child of Rhaegar got kicked out of the line of inheritance.

 

Yup.  He just put Rickard over the coals and put Brandon in a lethal choke hold.  He called for Ned's head but failed to do what Littlefinger actually accomplished 17 years later, the removal of Ned's head.  Yeah. I'd say Aerys would avoid passing his throne to a part Stark.  Disinheriting Rhaegar's family is just the type of measure that anybody would take in that situation.  Varys would advice him to do just that.  

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4 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

I don't think Rhaegar's children were disinherited, as they were presumed dead, Viserys had every right to the throne.

As for Aegon, he will be presumed a pretender unless he can prove it otherwise. Which I doubt

Sorry, no.  Aerys made Viserys his heir while Aegon and Rhaenys were still alive.  Thus proving beyond any doubt what his intentions were:  to disinherit Rhaegar's children.  He made sure Viserys inherited his kingdom.  

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Honestly I don't think he's a Blackfyre simply because the reveal would be underwhelming.  The vast majority of GoT fans don't really know who the Blackfyres are.  It's a name that's maybe mentioned a handful of times, but not enough to make the reveal meaningful. Most GoT fans don't spend their time on forums like this and therefore aren't as versed in the history as we all are.  I love the books and have read them multiple times but I didn't even know much about the Blackfyre rebellion until I started spending time on this forum and reading up more about it online.

I think it would go like this:  *he's revealed as a Blackfyre*  15% of GoT fans (forum users)  I FACCCKKIN KNEEEEW ITT! ........85% of fans (everybody else)  "ummmm who?  he's a what?  is that like wyldfire?"

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I think he is a Blackfyre. It just feels right to me considering The Golden Company joins him, who are Blackfyre supporters( that's the reason they exist, actually) and anti Targaryen.

And I am also of the belief that he is a son of Illyrio and Serra. Can't say which one of those is the Blackfyre. But I think it is Serra.

 

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28 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Honestly I don't think he's a Blackfyre simply because the reveal would be underwhelming.  The vast majority of GoT fans don't really know who the Blackfyres are.  It's a name that's maybe mentioned a handful of times, but not enough to make the reveal meaningful. Most GoT fans don't spend their time on forums like this and therefore aren't as versed in the history as we all are.  I love the books and have read them multiple times but I didn't even know much about the Blackfyre rebellion until I started spending time on this forum and reading up more about it online.

I think it would go like this:  *he's revealed as a Blackfyre*  15% of GoT fans (forum users)  I FACCCKKIN KNEEEEW ITT! ........85% of fans (everybody else)  "ummmm who?  he's a what?  is that like wyldfire?"

Well, it's not like the reveal must happen on the first page of TWOW, right? With two more books to go, there's enough space to base the reveal on more infodumps.

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