Aegon Blackfyre or Aegon Targaryen

[Magnar of Skagos]

1 hour ago, GyantSpyder said:

These days I like the idea that Aegon is a Velaryon, the son of Illyrio Mopatis and Serra Velaryon.

They lie to Griff and say he is Aegon.

They lie to the Targ supporters and say he is a Targ.

They lie to the Blackfyre supporters and say he is a Blackfyre.

They win the throne on a lie when Aegon ousts Tommen/Cersei and they lose the throne on a lie when Daenerys shows up.

Also while I don't think this is really true, the idea that Varys is secretly a woman, not a eunuch, and "Varys" = "Serra V" kinda backwards is hilarious. Some of the circumstantial evidence for Varys being  a woman is interesting enough (like how he talks to Tyrion about what it's like to be a woman who is flirting vs. having an affair) that if that turned out to be true I'd be delighted.

But it would be enough for Varys to just be a Velaryon. That all lines up well with Aurane Waters, who is also a Velaryon "in disguise" and who Cersei thinks looks just like Rhaegar. If Aurane can look that much like Rhaegar, Jacaerys Velaryon or whatever can look like Aegon Targaryan.

This would require some explanation of various sorts for the choices of Monford Velaryon, but it's not a terribly hard thing to rationalize.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure about him being a Velaryon. There isn't a lot of evidence to point towards it, and it seems a bit convoluted to me, and it's just kind of like... why? The Velaryons are clearly meant to be tertiary characters.

[Renly's Banana]

5 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

They do know something, but the something they know is that he is a Targaryen, at least according to the books.  When he's introduced as Aegon Targaryen and Jon thinks it's going to be a big reveal he's disappointed by the reaction,

" Aegon is introduced by Jon as Aegon VI, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. This is met with silence by the officers, and Jon realizes the sellswords are already aware of Aegon's Identiry"

Which means they already know he's heir to the throne, and the only way that's possible is if he's Rhaegar's son.  If they knew he was a Blackfyre the reaction would've been different.

Actually, if they thought he was only a Targaryen, their reaction would be a lot less welcoming. Most likely they wouldn't help him at all. 
Historically, their company has only served Blackfyres and FOUGHT Targaryens. That's why they were founded. The fact they already knew all about him before Connington arrived tells you that Illyrio has already spoken to them at length about something. They even entered into "a blood pact" -- whatever that means. The only one that seems to be out of the loop is Connington. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

He is a Blackfye. Absolutely. 

I can't remember if it's in the Twow Tyrion, or the Dance, chapter, but when Tyrion talks the second sons into going over to Dany, he does it holding a red cyvasse dragon (it's really white, but covered in blood.)

When Doran Martell sends Arianne to Jon Con and Aegon, he does it with a black cyvasse dragon. 

If this isn't classic GRRM foreshadowing, I don't know what it. 

[Renly's Banana]

@BricksAndSparrows That's a good catch.
Yeah there are a lot of little hints like that about Aegon's identity. 

[Traverys]

To me, Aegon's true identity is unimportant. Short of Varys/Illyrio announcing that he's actually a false dragon, there's no way we could ever come to a definitive conclusion about his birth. The whole "rightful king must sit the throne" trope has already been deconstructed to oblivion in the series, why does it really matter if his story is real or not? There are no Aragorn's in this story (thankfully), so it's all about who can play the game the best.

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Actually, if they thought he was only a Targaryen, their reaction would be a lot less welcoming. Most likely they wouldn't help him at all. 
Historically, their company has only served Blackfyres and FOUGHT Targaryens. That's why they were founded. The fact they already knew all about him before Connington arrived tells you that Illyrio has already spoken to them at length about something. They even entered into "a blood pact" -- whatever that means. The only one that seems to be out of the loop is Connington. 

I think you are overestimating the loyalty of the average man of the Golden Company to a house that is forty years extinct, and sixty years removed from the fervor of Bittersteel which originally drove them.

The Golden Company is not made up of Blackfyres or Bittersteels, it is made up of descendants of Westerosi exiles who lost their lands and titles as much as a century ago fighting over their belief that Daemon was the true Targaryen king.

If they have an opportunity to return to Westeros and win lands and titles, possibly even their own ancestral lands and titles, I don't think they would care whether the face of that return was a descendant of Daeron or of Daemon.

In fact, Tristan Rivers explicitly states that the original plan was for them to be joined by Viserys Targaryen and a thousand Dothraki screamers, and the plan after that was for them to be joined by Daenerys Targaryen, and even the most recent plan with AeGriff was for him to wed Daenerys, the Targaryen the whole world knows is legit.

I definitely lean toward AeGriff being a Blackfyre descendants, or someone other than Rhaegar's son, but I see no reason to think that the men of the Golden Company think or were told he is a Blackfyre descendant.

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, Traverys said:

To me, Aegon's true identity is unimportant. Short of Varys/Illyrio announcing that he's actually a false dragon, there's no way we could ever come to a definitive conclusion about his birth. The whole "rightful king must sit the throne" trope has already been deconstructed to oblivion in the series, why does it really matter if his story is real or not? There are no Aragorn's in this story (thankfully), so it's all about who can play the game the best.

I'm pretty sure the truth will matter in this case because it will matter to Aegon himself. He isn't a child, and if he was to find out that he is not, in fact, Rhaegar's son his thoughts on that could be an interesting plot point. Illyrio already has announced that he will join the gang in KL, and when he does he most likely will want to interact with his lad in some fashion. The reactions of people like Connington or Arianne would also be interesting, not to mention Varys. There is a lot of potential in this story, especially as a family tragedy. I don't think it will play so much a role in the public sphere  - only if Aegon actually decided to abdicate in favor of Daenerys or Stannis if he realized that he was not Rhaegar's son - but behind closed doors it might become very important.

32 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I definitely lean toward AeGriff being a Blackfyre descendants, or someone other than Rhaegar's son, but I see no reason to think that the men of the Golden Company think or were told he is a Blackfyre descendant.

Yes, that would be very odd in light of the fact that Varys doesn't even tell Kevan this truth (if it is the truth). He would have kept it to himself, unlike most of the officers of the Golden Company would.

If we look at this lukewarm reaction of the Golden Company to Connington's announcement we should also note that Aegon is just a boy a with blue hair, nothing special. He doesn't bring Daenerys or the dragons, nor any other allies. The Golden Company now stands alone in seating him on the Iron Throne - or at least considering that idea - and the men must remember that this didn't work the last three times they tried something like that.

Strickland isn't exactly keen to invade Westeros without the dragons, and prior to Aegon's little speech most of the other officers weren't all that looking forward to that, either.

The whole thing is in that sense very much resembling Daemon II's mad dreams of war and another Redgrass Field at Whitewalls where many of the men-at-arms assembled there were not exactly looking forward to another such bloodbath. In that sense this underwhelming reaction is hardly surprising. Strickland told them who would be coming, and when they knew it they had no reason to act surprised or impressed.

And the fact that the core theme of the Golden Company is the return of exiles and the sons of exiles into their ancestral home makes them actually natural allies of the exiled Targaryens in the wake of the Rebellion. If the Blackfyres hadn't been extinct when Viserys and Daenerys fled across the Narrow Sea it is very likely that the remaining Blackfyres would have taken them in to unite the bloodlines again and create a united front against the Baratheon usurper. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. And if Viserys can marry his sister to a Dothraki horselord then Varys and Illyrio (and other hypothetical Blackfyre descendants or their former followers) can also pragmatically adapt to new political situations.

 

[Princess Daenerys]

I presume Elia was brunette.  Her children?

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Princess Daenerys said:

I presume Elia was brunette.  Her children?

Aegon resembled Rhaegar and Rhaenys Elia.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I don't think Aegon's lineage matters at all. He's taking the throne by right of conquest regardless of who his parents are. He's not inheriting it. At most, his lineage matters insofar as gaining allies and winning Dany over. In which case, it matters less who his actual parents are than who everyone thinks his parents are. He has the looks, he has JonCon, he has the Golden Company. I think that'll probably be enough for a few lords. 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

On Tue May 09 2017 at 7:28 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Technically, the Blackfyres are Targaryens.

You must have stopped reading and made this quote cause I clearly stated this

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

I don't think Aegon's lineage matters at all. He's taking the throne by right of conquest regardless of who his parents are. He's not inheriting it. At most, his lineage matters insofar as gaining allies and winning Dany over. In which case, it matters less who his actual parents are than who everyone thinks his parents are. He has the looks, he has JonCon, he has the Golden Company. I think that'll probably be enough for a few lords. 

Aegon doesn't see himself as a conqueror nor will he present himself as such. The one who is trying to conquer Westeros is Euron, not Aegon. Aegon comes home as the true and rightful king, Rhaegar Targaryen's golden boy. With his few soldiers he could never take and hold the Iron Throne if not a significant majority of the lords of Westeros don't declare for him and support him with their men or at least do homage to him and decide to not oppose him.

And if it turned out that Aegon wasn't Rhaegar's son but a lowborn fraud it is not all that unlikely that many or even most of the lords originally supporting him don't raise a finger in his defense when his enemies come to cast him down. In that sense his parentage is important.

[spauldo17]

15 hours ago, Traverys said:

To me, Aegon's true identity is unimportant. Short of Varys/Illyrio announcing that he's actually a false dragon, there's no way we could ever come to a definitive conclusion about his birth. The whole "rightful king must sit the throne" trope has already been deconstructed to oblivion in the series, why does it really matter if his story is real or not? There are no Aragorn's in this story (thankfully), so it's all about who can play the game the best.

This.  Personally I think the "right to sit the throne" historically, even in the ideal circumstances, is shaky at best.  You only have the right to be king until somebody with a more accomplished army comes along and takes it from you.  Especially, as Traverys said, in GoT when the throne has switched hands so often, so many people are vying for it, people are inventing new types of kings to counter rule the king on the Iron Throne.  At this point it doesn't matter, who ever is most qualified and has the strongest army and alliances will be king and their children will become the "rightful" heir to the throne.   Until someone stronger comes along

[BricksAndSparrows]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty sure the truth will matter in this case because it will matter to Aegon himself. He isn't a child, and if he was to find out that he is not, in fact, Rhaegar's son his thoughts on that could be an interesting plot point.

This is probably the most interesting thing that has been said, in this thread so far. 

I actually like Aegon. It's a shame that we probably won't get any POV for him, because it would be interesting to hear him chew on his heritage, should he learn that he is a Blackfyre. 

I don't buy the idea that his actual parentage is unimportant. If that were the case, GRRM wouldn't have written the Dunk and Egg stories. In my opinion, those stories are were meant to give background to the Blackfyre rebellion. Background which is necessary for the readers to understand what is happening with Young Griff. 

But just to beat this dead horse a bit more...He is a Blackfyre. The cyvasse dragon's (red and black) are just too obvious. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

This is probably the most interesting thing that has been said, in this thread so far. 

I actually like Aegon. It's a shame that we probably won't get any POV for him, because it would be interesting to hear him chew on his heritage, should he learn that he is a Blackfyre.

I'm not sure that will be the important point for him. More how he was fooled into believing he was somebody else's son and his feelings for his actual true father, Illyrio, in this case. Is going to reject the fat man as his daddy or is he going to accept him?

2 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I don't buy the idea that his actual parentage is unimportant. If that were the case, GRRM wouldn't have written the Dunk and Egg stories. In my opinion, those stories are were meant to give background to the Blackfyre rebellion. Background which is necessary for the readers to understand what is happening with Young Griff. 

The Blackfyre stuff isn't all that important. Dunk & Egg began because George got an invitation to write a novella set in his fantasy world. And THK includes no Blackfyre references at all. Dunk and Egg and what they do and stand for are at the heart of those stories. What does it mean to be a knight? What is a good ruler? What is justice? And so on.

George most likely already had invented the Aegon plan as an outgrowth of the back story of Illyrio (who essentially began as an extra helping Viserys to arrange the Dothraki marriage) and Varys. He most likely knew from the beginning that Varys and Illyrio would the descendants of some (bastard) Targaryen cadet branch.

But with Dunk & Egg George had the chance to fuse those stories together just as he did with Bloodraven and the three-eyed crow. Without Dunk & Egg the three-eyed crow would have just been some dude with a Targaryen ancestry, just as Aemon is in AGoT. But with this illustrious history of Blackfyre rebellions the Blackfyres can now also be set up as constant threats throughout the course of the Dunk & Egg stories. If George had never written any of those then Varys/Illyrio would likely go back to a (bastard) son of Aegon V or Maekar I. There would be no need to establish some convoluted back story of five rebellions and seven Blackfyre sons. That would be overkill. And it still is, actually. Only five rebellions and seven sons many of which should have children of their own doesn't go all that well together.

2 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

But just to beat this dead horse a bit more...He is a Blackfyre. The cyvasse dragon's (red and black) are just too obvious. 

He might be a Blackfyre descendant. But he isn't a Blackfyre. Not if Illyrio's own claim that House Blackfyre is extinguished in the male line is true. As Illyrio's son Aegon would be Aegon Mopatis. Not even Varys can be a Blackfyre by birth. He is either some Targaryen or Blackfyre bastard or the son/descendant of a Blackfyre mother.

[The Twinslayer]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

<snip> 

 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

<snip>

I don't think the Blackfyre stuff has anything to do with Aegon.  We were waiting for Aegon to appear ever since Ned told us that the baby's skull was a "red ruin" and Arya overheard people matching the description of Varys and Illyrio talking about a plot that needed more time.  This was long before GRRM introduced the Blackfyre idea.  And we have been told that there will be a new dance of the dragons.  The original dance of the dragons, which (like Aegon's unrecognizable skull) was introduced in AGOT, was between trueborn Targaryens, male and female, where the succession was murky.  The new one will be, too -- between Aegon, heir to Prince Rhaegar, and Dany, heir to King Viserys.  

The Blackfyre stuff is about bastardy and Jon Snow.  We are introduced to it in ASOS, when Cat warns Robb of the risks posed by legitimized bastards and then Robb (likely) legitimizes Jon.  We think they are talking about the danger of giving Jon a claim to the kingdom of the North.  But they are really foreshadowing Jon having a legitimized bastard's claim to the Iron Throne.  

[Bael's Bastard]

52 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

 

I don't think the Blackfyre stuff has anything to do with Aegon.  We were waiting for Aegon to appear ever since Ned told us that the baby's skull was a "red ruin" and Arya overheard people matching the description of Varys and Illyrio talking about a plot that needed more time.  This was long before GRRM introduced the Blackfyre idea.  And we have been told that there will be a new dance of the dragons.  The original dance of the dragons, which (like Aegon's unrecognizable skull) was introduced in AGOT, was between trueborn Targaryens, male and female, where the succession was murky.  The new one will be, too -- between Aegon, heir to Prince Rhaegar, and Dany, heir to King Viserys.  

The Blackfyre stuff is about bastardy and Jon Snow.  We are introduced to it in ASOS, when Cat warns Robb of the risks posed by legitimized bastards and then Robb (likely) legitimizes Jon.  We think they are talking about the danger of giving Jon a claim to the kingdom of the North.  But they are really foreshadowing Jon having a legitimized bastard's claim to the Iron Throne.  

The Blackfyre stuff has everything to do with the person being claimed to be Aegon: Young Griff. He is being claimed to be Aegon, but he and his story as it is happening are inextricable from Blackfyre stuff.

ASOS introduces Connington, his relationship to Rhaegar, and his exile, and introduces Daemon Blackfyre and the "Blackfyre Pretenders." Jaime even mentions in the same sentence the exile of Connington and how Daemon Blackfyre was previously the greatest threat to House Targaryen until the Battle of the Bells made Aerys realize Robert was a real threat.

Cat makes one of the references to the Blackfyres, but it is not the first. They are mentioned or thought about first by Stannis, then Jaime, then Cat, and in the White Book, and then by Arianne, Tyrion, Illyrio, Lord Godric, Connington, Doran, and Barristan.

Young Griff has no provenance. The only people who might be able to claim to have seen him raised from birth are people of ill repute like Varys and Illyrio. Connington wasn't even brought on board until after he had been in exile and serving in the Golden Company for years, and they only just now were sending YG to Daenerys, who the whole world knows is a legitimate Targaryen, to try to marry her and gain him legitimacy.

I am not saying this all proves he has Blackfyre ancestry, though I do think it is likely, but his unfolding experience is steeped in Blackfyre stuff, while his Aegon backstory is just that, at least for now.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I don't think the Blackfyre stuff has anything to do with Aegon.  We were waiting for Aegon to appear ever since Ned told us that the baby's skull was a "red ruin" and Arya overheard people matching the description of Varys and Illyrio talking about a plot that needed more time.

Honestly, I didn't expect that Aegon would show up. I bought the idea that he was dead. I usually buy the stuff people are establishing as facts. And while Varys and Illyrio certainly seem to have ulterior motives in AGoT it is completely unclear back then that they are backing another Targaryen pretender.

I only thought that he might yet live when we got to the House of the Undying.

2 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

This was long before GRRM introduced the Blackfyre idea.  And we have been told that there will be a new dance of the dragons.  The original dance of the dragons, which (like Aegon's unrecognizable skull) was introduced in AGOT, was between trueborn Targaryens, male and female, where the succession was murky.  The new one will be, too -- between Aegon, heir to Prince Rhaegar, and Dany, heir to King Viserys.  

The Second Dance is likely to have little in common with the original Dance. Rhaenyra and Aegon II hated each other, as did their families. Any such situation is not going to happen with Aegon and Dany, nor is it likely that either of them will have as loyal friends and allies among the lords of Westeros as Aegon II and Rhaenyra did thanks to kin among the Hightowers, Velaryons, Arryns, etc. In addition, we are likely to have other important players in the Second Dance like Euron, Cersei, Stannis, Littlefinger, etc.

49 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Blackfyre stuff has everything to do with the person being claimed to be Aegon: Young Griff. He is being claimed to be Aegon, but he and his story as it is happening are inextricable from Blackfyre stuff.

That may be the case now, but the Blackfyre story as well as Bloodraven and Bittersteel are outgrowths of the Dunk & Egg stories. That is the point. Without Dunk & Egg there would, most likely, have still been an Aegon but not with that kind of intricate Blackfyre back story. And I don't think that this is going to play all that big a role in the series. The Blackfyre cause is dead and George is not likely going to give us a lot of historical flashbacks in the main series.

[The Twinslayer]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Blackfyre stuff has everything to do with the person being claimed to be Aegon: Young Griff. He is being claimed to be Aegon, but he and his story as it is happening are inextricable from Blackfyre stuff.

ASOS introduces Connington, his relationship to Rhaegar, and his exile, and introduces Daemon Blackfyre and the "Blackfyre Pretenders." Jaime even mentions in the same sentence the exile of Connington and how Daemon Blackfyre was previously the greatest threat to House Targaryen until the Battle of the Bells made Aerys realize Robert was a real threat.

Cat makes one of the references to the Blackfyres, but it is not the first. They are mentioned or thought about first by Stannis, then Jaime, then Cat, and in the White Book, and then by Arianne, Tyrion, Illyrio, Lord Godric, Connington, Doran, and Barristan.

Young Griff has no provenance. The only people who might be able to claim to have seen him raised from birth are people of ill repute like Varys and Illyrio. Connington wasn't even brought on board until after he had been in exile and serving in the Golden Company for years, and they only just now were sending YG to Daenerys, who the whole world knows is a legitimate Targaryen, to try to marry her and gain him legitimacy.

I am not saying this all proves he has Blackfyre ancestry, though I do think it is likely, but his unfolding experience is steeped in Blackfyre stuff, while his Aegon backstory is just that, at least for now.

My point is that there are heavy hints in AGOT and ACOK that Aegon isn't really dead -- that he is the hidden prince who managed to escape the murder of the rest of his family.  The Blackfyre stuff comes much later, in ASOS.  And when it does come, there is a passing reference by Stannis, a passing reference by Jaime (not in the same sentence where Connington is mentioned, but nearby), but there is a long discussion of it where Jon is directly compared to Daemon Blackfyre.  The Blackfyre story is much more closely associated with Jon.  

In addition to the comparisons between Daemon B. and Jon, we have to remember that the history of the Blackfyre rebellions is also the backstory for Bloodraven.  Identifying the three-eyed crow has been central to Bran's story since the very beginning.  The information about the Blackfyres, and the rivalry between Bloodraven and Bittersteel, the reasons Bloodraven was sent to the Wall, all provide information relevant to Bloodraven and Bran.  That is more than enough reason to include details about the Blackfyres in ADWD.     

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Honestly, I didn't expect that Aegon would show up. I bought the idea that he was dead. I usually buy the stuff people are establishing as facts. And while Varys and Illyrio certainly seem to have ulterior motives in AGoT it is completely unclear back then that they are backing another Targaryen pretender.

I only thought that he might yet live when we got to the House of the Undying.

That surprises me.  I was sure Aegon would return as soon as we were told that the child's skull was a red ruin.  

[Slowpoke Martin]

What is all this Blackfyre talk? If Aegon is a blackfyre it would feel so out of place in the main series, people don't give 2 shits about a random Blackfyre showing up. How much thematic sense would it make? Zero because he would just be another person trying to be king.

Think about how much fucking sense it would make if he was the REAL Aegon Targaryen!!! Then the story would be so much more interesting.

TWOW is shaping up to be a showdown between family members:

Targaryen vs Targaryen vs unexpected Targaryen from the north

Greyjoy vs Greyjoy vs Greyjoy

Lannister vs Lannister vs Lannister

The intermarried families of the Reach vs eachother

Hell even a potential Stark vs Stark backed by different fractions