Dullest characters

[winter daughter]

21 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I think being another person, Alayne, has been an interesting situation for her. A couple of in-book years ago she would gasp in outrage at the suggestion of posing as a bastard. She is a highborn lady of Winterfell. Fast forward two years, she now finds solace in the identity. People are no longer trying to use her for her name/inheritance, in a small room she is overlooked, and she doesn't have to worry much about false friends because she isn't of importance. I bet it's quite refreshing after her time in King's Landing. I was surprised at how flirty she got with Hardyng at the dance.

I think she is enjoying her bastard persona. she thinks Alayne is stronger and braver than Sansa because she is a bastard.

And she acts a little inappropriate and unladylike thanks to Myranda Royce.

She was always charming but never flirtatious. now she is learning to use her beauty and wits to attract and manipulate men.

I hope she stays Alayne for two or three more chapters. I really like Alayne.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 minute ago, HaeSuse said:

Speaking of "dull". I'd just like to say that, to me as a reader (completely opinion), the entire series would be made far more enjoyable if the entire "Others" plotline just disappeared, Dany and Visy had died during Robert's Rebeliion, no zombies ever came into the picture, and the ever-loving Viking wannabes were written out of it.

 

I adore the re-imagining of the War of the Roses, and really get bored by the rest of it. Dragons be damned. 

I'd keep some magical aspects, otherwise it'd be like reading history in a story and it's not very interesting. The magical aspect and some changes in the "real" world is what makes the series so enjoyable to read. All the different stuff and the universe to be explored, etc.

[Traverys]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I would prefer one of her dragons eat her, but I think neither outcome is going to happen.  She's a "hero" and will probably save the world along with Jon.  

Well, considering that the series has been one huge effort of deconstructing fantasy tropes, I don't see things playing out so easily. We hear about heroes in the myths and songs, but those hardly ever go into the actual politics. Things are never so easy in reality. I've personally never seen her as a hero with the exception of helping out with the Others. I take the dragons away and take a good hard (figurative) look at her and don't like what I see. That's my opinion, but feel like it needs to be said because there's a lot of "you have to like her" floating around now. Many people don't like my top 3 characters, but that's life and I accept it.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I think she is enjoying her bastard persona. she thinks Alayne is stronger and braver than Sansa because she is bastard brave.

And she acts a little inappropriate and unladylike thanks to Miranda Royce.

She was always charming but never flirtatious. now she is learning to use her beauty and wits to attract and manipulate men.

I hope she stays Alayne for two or three more chapters. I really like Alayne.

That's what she should've done right down at the beggining. Making Joffrey her bitch and stoping the war in the first place. But....... She needed those abusive moments to grow (not that I'm a fan of women being beaten just to grow as a character but it's what we got)

[zandru]

19 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Her arc is essencially about growth and mature. Done so slowly just makes the outcome more and more satisfying, at least for me. When she helped LF to put the blame at Marillion just shows how much she can adapt herself to survive.

Well, I keep contrasting her with her "altogether unsatisfactory" little sister. I think a lot of this is a matter of taste. Some prefer the beautiful, helpless Disney princess waiting to be rescued. Sansa grows some, but she's nowhere near Arya's level, even yet. Sansa doesn't seem to learn as fast, doesn't seem to take much iniative. Going down to the Godswood every night? Right - to see if her White Knight has arrived to rescue her yet. Big achievement.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Traverys said:

Well, considering that the series has been one huge effort of deconstructing fantasy tropes, I don't see things playing out so easily. We hear about heroes in the myths and songs, but those hardly ever go into the actual politics. Things are never so easy in reality. I've personally never seen her as a hero with the exception of helping out with the Others. I take the dragons away and take a good hard (figurative) look at her and don't like what I see. That's my opinion, but feel like it needs to be said because there's a lot of "you have to like her" floating around now. Many people don't like my top 3 characters, but that's life and I accept it.

The 'deconstructing of fantasy tropes' is seriously over estimated in my opinion.  We've got a princess who wants to reclaim her kingdom, a hidden prince deprived of his birthright, prophecy, magic swords, dragons, evil queens, etc. etc.  GRRM has made these fantasy tropes more realistic and imbued them deeper and more complex characters, I am not so sure he has or will deconstruct them at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong, I despise the character that Dany has become since Dance, she is a terrible ruler with generally poor judgment and prone to rash decisions.  But the author sees her as a hero who is doing what has to be done, in my opinion, so I think that her story is going progress toward that conclusion...

[Tyrek Lannister]

Areo Hotah.

 

Also Arianne? She's got the looks but 'The Princess in the Tower' chapter was the boringest thing ever. Complete chore going through it.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, I keep contrasting her with her "altogether unsatisfactory" little sister. I think a lot of this is a matter of taste. Some prefer the beautiful, helpless Disney princess waiting to be rescued. Sansa grows some, but she's nowhere near Arya's level, even yet. Sansa doesn't seem to learn as fast, doesn't seem to take much iniative. Going down to the Godswood every night? Right - to see if her White Knight has arrived to rescue her yet. Big achievement.

Just one thing. You're trying to compare one girl that just shits on every single stereotype of women at the time with a girl that embodies every stereotype of highborn girls. Those two are not comparable by any means. Sansa is weak, arya is strong. But Sansa is getting stronger by the day, and learning that the world is not to take from granted. Arya realizes it when she saw her dad dying. Sansa just realized that when she had to kept her mouth shut for about a year, with fear of being killed. She didn't have much choice, she had to keep "playing" as a damsel in distress because she was one. She didn't have any training with weapons, she had weak willness and she didn't realize how good she could be at manipulating someone. So, yeah, I don't think comparing both situations as "good and bad" something good. They're not in any level comparable.

[HaeSuse]

26 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

I'd keep some magical aspects, otherwise it'd be like reading history in a story and it's not very interesting. The magical aspect and some changes in the "real" world is what makes the series so enjoyable to read. All the different stuff and the universe to be explored, etc.

I love warging, and the direwolves. I love the green dreams, and Bran's plot. He doesn't have to be a defense against the Others. He could just as easily have fulfilled his destiny by saving the realm. 

[ftheking]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The 'deconstructing of fantasy tropes' is seriously over estimated in my opinion.  We've got a princess who wants to reclaim her kingdom, a hidden prince deprived of his birthright, prophecy, magic swords, dragons, evil queens, etc. etc.  GRRM has made these fantasy tropes more realistic and imbued them deeper and more complex characters, I am not so sure he has or will deconstruct them at the end of the day.

Thisss. People are also overestemating how much you can negate fantasy tropes and still write a coherent fantasy story. You really can't.

My only hope when hit by Dany hate is that she'll die tragically, thus enabling the characters I care about more to save the world. Though it would be funny too: Aaaand Dany finally makes is to Westeros - any minute now - she's here!!!! ... and dead.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

3 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Thisss. People are also overestemating how much you can negate fantasy tropes and still write a coherent fantasy story. You really can't.

My only hope when hit by Dany hate is that she'll die tragically, thus enabling the characters I care about more to save the world. Though it would be funny too: Aaaand Dany finally makes is to Westeros - any minute now - she's here!!!! ... and dead.

I really think she'll become more a villain than a hero near the end. But just wishful thinking at my part.

[Traverys]

54 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I think she is enjoying her bastard persona. she thinks Alayne is stronger and braver than Sansa because she is a bastard.

And she acts a little inappropriate and unladylike thanks to Miranda Royce.

She was always charming but never flirtatious. now she is learning to use her beauty and wits to attract and manipulate men.

I hope she stays Alayne for two or three more chapters. I really like Alayne.

Myranda Royce is amazing, that's all I cna say. I'd hope people who find Sansa otherwise boring at least got a few laughs from her!   "Kind? How boring that would be. I aspire to be wicked."

47 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The 'deconstructing of fantasy tropes' is seriously over estimated in my opinion.  We've got a princess who wants to reclaim her kingdom, a hidden prince deprived of his birthright, prophecy, magic swords, dragons, evil queens, etc. etc.  GRRM has made these fantasy tropes more realistic and imbued them deeper and more complex characters, I am not so sure he has or will deconstruct them at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong, I despise the character that Dany has become since Dance, she is a terrible ruler with generally poor judgment and prone to rash decisions.  But the author sees her as a hero who is doing what has to be done, in my opinion, so I think that her story is going progress toward that conclusion...

I think all the things you've listed have been deconstructed... These aren't exhaustive, but just me playing devil's advocate.

1. Hidden Prince -- I'm not sure which hidden prince you're talking about, but that in and of itself is a deconstruction. There is no one, rightful prince. There are many and the true one depends on your perspective. The Rightful King is deconstructed in general because there are so many people who genuinely believe that they have the true claim. Jon Snow is still technically a bastard regardless of his true parents, and he's been put through all the hardships of being one. That's usually something that is not explored in fantasy as the rightful king always has all the traits and qualities to excel at the job. Not to mention Jon Snow's version of Merlin/Gandalf is Melisandre, which doesn't inspire a lot of certainty or confidence.. If it's Viserys you're talking about ("hidden prince), then just even describing him briefly deconstructs it. He's no Aragorn in exile from Gondor ready to take his throne when destiny forces his hand. 
2. Prophecy, and magic in general, has not really panned out well for anyone involved. There's a few colorful quotes in the books about how prophecy may promise sweetness and light, but by the time you realize differently it's too late. We also have the Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy in the very first book that, as far as we can tell, turned out to be a dud. Daenerys even gets a glimpse of what we assume would have been her son in the House of the Undying. Seems to me that GRRM set a precedence of prophecies not always coming true, and in that particular case magic was involved. Do we expect magic to be used in the battle against the Others?
3. Magic Swords -- Magic swords that can defeat the big bad evil Others. Surely those who wield them are the heroes? Not really, and we can't even infer if any of them will show up for the fight against the others at this point. Perhaps the most magical sword of them all (Dawn) isn't even Valyrian steel, which also makes it a bit odd. Then again, it being a magical sword is speculation.
4. Dragons -- Having pet dragons has not added up to be as great of an experience as one might be led to believe. They're powerful and they'll give you more than just an edge when conducting war. But then what? What are the costs versus the gains of having dragons during times of peace? Surely they'll help keep that peace, but unfortunately they don't care about politics and they don't care about what they eat as long as it fills them up. They're wild and can't be controlled. He's gone out of his way to show they're a blessing and a curse.
5. Evil Queens -- I guess you mean Cersei? GRRM has gone to great lengths to show she's a product of her circumstances. She's not a nice or good person who is mistaken for evil (Elphaba), but she's also not a Disney evil step mom. We also find out she's been driven, at least recently, to extremes trying to avoid a prophecy (ironically making it a self-fulfilling prophecy). There's also Rhaenyra, who is typically acknowledged as something close to "evil" since she lost the Dance of Dragons. People overlook that her father named her heir long before and all the major lords of the realm swore to uphold her succession. Ironically, her son is the one that ultimately sits the throne once all the fallout is done.

Like I said, not trying to make the definitive or exhaustive arguments for deconstruction, conversion, or any other methods of playing with the trope. It'd be a huge let down if he stops this pattern since it's what keeps the books interesting and unpredictable to me. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I don't think any of the characters are dull. The thing I find an absolute bore is the entire continent of Essos and everything that has ever happened or will happen there in the future.

 

[Ser Loras The Gay]

2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't think any of the characters are dull. The thing I find an absolute bore is the entire continent of Essos and everything that has ever happened or will happen there in the future.

 

dany's arc in a nutshell

 

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't think any of the characters are dull. The thing I find an absolute bore is the entire continent of Essos and everything that has ever happened or will happen there in the future.

 

Not even Quentyn?  He was dull.  But I still say there is a difference between a dull character..Quentyn...and dull chapters....Brienne in Feast and Dany in Dance.  Although Brienne I'm not sure really is non dull enough to have her own POV

[Nevets]

Of the main characters, I find Daenerys the hardest to read.  Her story has two problems.  The first is that it is separate from the rest of the story, and feels entirely disconnected, so iI find it hard to really care about it.  The second problem is that with a couple of exceptions (Barristan and Missandei), I really don't like the people around her.  I find them either unpleasant, boring, or both.  Once her story moves to Westeros, and she gathers more interesting people around her, I'll likely find her more interesting.  But certainly not now.

Others I find dull and uninteresting include everybody in Dorne, and the Iron Islanders except Asha.  Areo, Arys, Arianne, Victarion, Damphair, Euron, Theon.  They could all disappear and I wouldn't miss them.  (I like the Theon chapters in Dance, but only for what happens in them.  Theon himself still bores me.)

[Annalee]

Sansa is the Queen of Dull.  Dull in more ways than one.  I had to have a cup of strong coffee every time I began her chapters.  Brienne and Jon are second and third places in the Dull List.

[HoodedCrow]

Sansa is an embodiment of the realistic limitations of conservative women. It would be a huge mistake not to have her  "represented". Women are still limited. They don't have dragons. They don't have as much in the way of resources or rights and if their guardians abuse them, their is little they can do, at least till they are of age. Arya and Dany are the unusual fantasy characters. By the way, the idea of Dany as a knight upsets people, but knights do not look very good in this world, and rightly so. Life is not a fairytale...are you paying attention? The stench of misogyny fills the air. It's actually not as bad in Westeros, because of the lack of church doctrine.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Not even Quentyn?  He was dull.

I don't think he's completely dull; it's his story that's boring and it's boring mainly because he's stuck in tedious Essos. Think how interesting it would have been if we had seen him in Dorne juxtaposed with Doran and Arianne. Or had him sent to King's Landing to Joffrey's wedding with Uncle Oberyn. I'd love to see him in Tyrion's POV, or Cersei's, or even Sansa's.

 

[Traverys]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Not even Quentyn?  He was dull.  But I still say there is a difference between a dull character..Quentyn...and dull chapters....Brienne in Feast and Dany in Dance.  Although Brienne I'm not sure really is non dull enough to have her own POV

I liked the idea of Brienne having her own POV. What a great way to have a very singular woman's perspective in that setting! But... her "quest" is a fool's errand and we all know it before it even begins. We the real Arya is not likely on the continent and that Sansa is being kept hidden by Littlefinger. So there's really no sense of suspense or build-up in her chapters.

Quentyn's chapters are painful for me to read after the first time because I find it tragic. I'm not particularly fond of his little journey, but I hope that it will at least feel necessary once Dorne's involvement plays out.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Of the main characters, I find Daenerys the hardest to read.  Her story has two problems.  The first is that it is separate from the rest of the story, and feels entirely disconnected, so iI find it hard to really care about it.  The second problem is that with a couple of exceptions (Barristan and Missandei), I really don't like the people around her.  I find them either unpleasant, boring, or both.  Once her story moves to Westeros, and she gathers more interesting people around her, I'll likely find her more interesting.  But certainly not now.

Others I find dull and uninteresting include everybody in Dorne, and the Iron Islanders except Asha.  Areo, Arys, Arianne, Victarion, Damphair, Euron, Theon.  They could all disappear and I wouldn't miss them.  (I like the Theon chapters in Dance, but only for what happens in them.  Theon himself still bores me.)

I think Daenerys was supposed to add a sense of building tension as you go along. For example, despite all the intrigue, betrayals, and wars going on in the south, the slow progression of the Others adds a sense of impending doom that's just brilliant. Even with all the crazy interesting and dramatic things happening in the story, we're often reminded that the Others are on the march and whatever they bring it isn't good. The introduction of dragons to the mix, for a while, felt like it was going to be such a game changer. It had me on the edge of my seat thinking about what point she would arrive and what it would mean for many of my favorite characters. Now...the majority of those characters are dead...  I'm sure GRRM will write an interesting point for her to land in Westeros, but it'll be with this new wave of players (Aegon, Dorne, etc.) that I'm not really invested so strongly in.

Is it bad that I don't care if Aegon is a fake, a Targaryen, or a Blackfyre? It seems like it's going to play out the same way regardless so meh.

56 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Sansa is an embodiment of the realistic limitations of conservative women. It would be a huge mistake not to have her  "represented". Women are still limited. They don't have dragons. They don't have as much in the way of resources or rights and if their guardians abuse them, their is little they can do, at least till they are of age. Arya and Dany are the unusual fantasy characters. By the way, the idea of Dany as a knight upsets people, but knights do not look very good in this world, and rightly so. Life is not a fairytale...are you paying attention? The stench of misogyny fills the air. It's actually not as bad in Westeros, because of the lack of church doctrine.

Au contraire, take a closer look at 6 of the 7 aspects of the Faith of the Seven. They represent not only a rigid social order but also define strict gender roles. Men get the active roles: the Father (judgement; justice), the Smith (creation), and the Warrior (fighting). Not only are women represented in passive roles, but their "aspects" represent the stages of their life: you're born a Maiden (young girls should stay virgins until marriage; obey your father), achieve your greatest status as a Mother (have babies/heirs for your husband), and when you're too old to do/be the other two you are the Crone (provide guidance and wisdom for others). Note men's aspects have nothing to do with their age at all. The Father is usually represented bearded, but that doesn't imply he's as old as a crone (i.e., Old Nan). All of the female aspects are in the service of others as well, while the male aspects don't necessarily have those connotations. Your mileage may vary on this last point, but the Stranger (mystery; death) is sometimes defined as both male and female (or neither)... implying that not being on one side of a (false) dichotomy is bad and scary. Women who don't follow these archetypes have a nice cold spot waiting for them in the Silent Sisters (of which there is no male equivalent)... and the Silent Sisters are dedicated to? The Stranger (scary; bad).

So the misogyny, in my opinion at least, is definitely there. If we look to the Old Gods ("too numerous to count"), their faith has very basic tenants and thus doesn't endorse those kinds of gender norms. The culture of the First Men, arguably best preserved north of the Wall, has room for spearwives as well as maidens, mothers, and crones. The Mormont women certainly get a few stares, but they aren't harshly mocked like Brienne is.

Just food for thought.