Tywin's Orders

[1000th Lord Commander]

We know that Tywin gave orders for the deaths of Elia and her children, as it is laid out quite clearly in the books

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We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children

My question is that what were his orders for Aerys? Tywin had no idea that Jamie would turn Kingslayer. We know that Elys Westerling and Roland Crakehall make for the throne room, were they ordered to kill the king? Were they ordered to protect Jamie? What if they had walked into the throne room to find Aerys raving on his throne and Jamie at the foot of it, sword drawn?

[Ckram]

To kill, definetly.

Since the intention was to show to the rebels that the Lannisters were clearly on their side, imprisoning Aerys wouldn't make sense, even having in mind public judgement and execution (so that Ned and Robert might feel avenged, I mean).

I think the reason why Roland were sent there is because Jaime was a squire at Crackehall, so they probably knew each other, and to avoid that father and son relationship interfered on the matter (Jaime and Tywin were in a bad moment since Harrenhal). I don't know why was Elys with Roland though.

If Jaime fought they would probably just stop him. They were in larger number.

[Steel Stag]

It's also important to mention that Tywin never ordered Elias death. He just ordered the death of her children. Unlike her children, Elia did not need to die. She had no claim to the throne. 

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, Steel Stag said:

It's also important to mention that Tywin never ordered Elias death. He just ordered the death of her children. Unlike her children, Elia did not need to die. She had no claim to the throne. 

Tywin wanted her dead for the slight to his own daughter. 

[Lion of the West]

I would think that Tywin gav instructions for Aerys to die and Jamie to be captured. Like @Ckram suggested, it might be that Jamie knew Roland Crakehall and thus Roland was given the task to, probably, apprehend Jamie and if possible talk him down from fighting them. And if it came to blows, well the Tully men-at-arms could overpower Jamie when he got hold of a sword during the breakout Tyrion arranged so I don't see why the Westermen would be less capable of essentially restraining Jamie and take him alive.

[snow is the man]

Oh aery's was gonna be killed definetly. Tywin hated him and  having him dead and his head on a pike would make robert happy

[Renly's Banana]

Before Rhaegar's death, Tywin would have most likely wanted Aerys imprisoned. After Rhaegar's death, Aerys had to die. 

4 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Tywin wanted her dead for the slight to his own daughter. 

Tywin tells us himself he didn't want her dead. That "slight" was done by Aerys, not Elia; Tywin is not that irrational. 

[Praetor Xyn]

17 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Before Rhaegar's death, Tywin would have most likely wanted Aerys imprisoned. After Rhaegar's death, Aerys had to die. 

Tywin tells us himself he didn't want her dead. That "slight" was done by Aerys, not Elia; Tywin is not that irrational. 

Too bad the apple fell so far from the tree there. Cersei is about as rational as a man climbing into a sack with a dog, a monkey, and a snake and having someone tie the sack and throw it in a river.

[LindsayLohan]

23 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Before Rhaegar's death, Tywin would have most likely wanted Aerys imprisoned. After Rhaegar's death, Aerys had to die. 

Tywin tells us himself he didn't want her dead. That "slight" was done by Aerys, not Elia; Tywin is not that irrational. 

It was Oberyn who believed Tywin wanted Elia dead, due to Tywin rejecting Cersei for Oberyn.  Cersei was meant for Rhaegar, and Oberyn believed Tywin was personally angry with Elia for stealing that honor.  Or at least, was going to hold her personally accountable.  Lots of events really depend on the perception of the people involved. 

Of course, Tywin didn't see it that way, when discussing it with Tyrion.  Tywin looked at the whole situation matter-of-factly, even through his own cruel eyes.  I think Tywin was surprised at the level of butchery that took place during the Sack, even by his own standards.

[Traverys]

How much influence Tywin had on the level of butchery is a somewhat controversial topic. It depends on who you believe.

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His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?”

“Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape . . . even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope.”

Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys…” … His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister.

On one hand, we know Tywin to go to great efforts to project a specific image of himself: Ruthless, pragmatic, and disciplined (in control of his base desires). From here, it depends on how you view (1) the presence of Shae in his bed wearing his chain of golden hands (was it really just a setup?), and (2) the heavy hint Varys dropped about a hand that used to travel to what is now Chataya's brothel via a secret tunnel. They either indicate Tywin was a hypocrite or he was, at least in the first case, he was framed. Make your decision about that and read this passage (Oberyn speaking to Tyrion):

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“I told you of the welcome we found at Casterly Rock. What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead.”

“Which offer she took for an outrage.”

“It was. Even you can see that, surely?”

“Oh, surely.” It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. “Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt.”

“She thought so,” Prince Oberyn agreed, “but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King’s Landing, he taught it to my sister.”

So, Oberyn is saying that Tywin intended for Elia to die, which I think is a fair conclusion since Tywin is certainly not one to endure slights. A Lannister pays his debts. We also have subtle clues in scenes that hint that Tywin projects a facade, or, a lie.

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“But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold."

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"The Lord of Casterly Rock made such an impressive figure that it was a shock when his destrier dropped a load of dung right at the base of the throne."

And then, of course, the stench and decay of his corpse. That of course branches into its own topic of if Tywin was already doomed to die via poison and Tyrion happened to kill him before it took full effect.

Anyways, this was my roundabout way of saying that, in my opinion, Tywin had come to KL to not only side with Robert Baratheon, but also to pay back debts. He may have kept Aerys II alive for Robert to kill, in the end. That would allow him to take pleasure (adding to Genna's list of times Tywin has be known to smile) in seeing Aerys react to having everything taken away.

[Quoth the raven,]

Tywin doesn't always tell Tyrion the truth. Take Tyshia and Shae.  He ordered those deaths for Aegon and Rhaenys. 

[Ckram]

7 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

Before Rhaegar's death, Tywin would have most likely wanted Aerys imprisoned.

Why?

[Renly's Banana]

49 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Why?

Because the transition of power had to be as "peaceful" as possible. Rhaegar had been dropping some not-so-subtle hints that he meant to forcibly replace his father with a council. So let's say in an alternate reality Rhaegar had killed Robert on the Trident. Tywin would have flipped to the side of the Royalists and helped Rhaegar. The best way of doing that was securing the throne for him. Killing his father would be a bit messy and brand him a kingslayer. Rhaegar would not be able to have him as Hand or anywhere near power purely out of shame and respect. Aerys would have been imprisoned or confined somewhere while Rhaegar was crowned. 

It's actually kinda hard to guess at what Tywin's ideal scenario would have been. I think he may have been hoping for Rhaegar to win and become king, so he could worm his way back into court. But the whole Lyanna kidnapping/still married to Elia thing would have been a huge problem for him. Mainly cause he wanted Cersei to be queen. Robert was too unpredictable and basically an unknown to him. Buuut I guess it all worked out for him in the end. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

26 minutes ago, Renly's Banana said:

Because the transition of power had to be as "peaceful" as possible. Rhaegar had been dropping some not-so-subtle hints that he meant to forcibly replace his father with a council. So let's say in an alternate reality Rhaegar had killed Robert on the Trident. Tywin would have flipped to the side of the Royalists and helped Rhaegar. The best way of doing that was securing the throne for him. Killing his father would be a bit messy and brand him a kingslayer. Rhaegar would not be able to have him as Hand or anywhere near power purely out of shame and respect. Aerys would have been imprisoned or confined somewhere while Rhaegar was crowned. 

It's actually kinda hard to guess at what Tywin's ideal scenario would have been. I think he may have been hoping for Rhaegar to win and become king, so he could worm his way back into court. But the whole Lyanna kidnapping/still married to Elia thing would have been a huge problem for him. Mainly cause he wanted Cersei to be queen. Robert was too unpredictable and basically an unknown to him. Buuut I guess it all worked out for him in the end. 

If this scenario happens perhaps Tywin tries to frame Aerys for the murder of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Then Rhaegar would need to start making more heads of the dragon and would need a wife to do it with Lyanna dead. Cersei would be right there to help Rhaegar out with that.

[Ckram]

@Renly's Banana

Forgive me, I momentarily forgot that Rhaegar wanted to call a council, not just replace his father at any cost. Your whole argument makes sense to me now.

BTW, I think that if Rhaegar had become king Tywin would have done the possible to marry Cersei to Viserys. OTOH, if Lyanna really died giving birth to Jon, her death seemed inevitable, and, therefore, a problem for Rhaegar, Ned (if alive) and Martells to solve.

@Ralphis Baratheon

Why do you think Tywin would still order the murder of Rhaegar's children (and Elia, unintentionally) if had Rhaegar survived?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

 

 

@Ralphis Baratheon

Why do you think Tywin would still order the murder of Rhaegar's children (and Elia, unintentionally) if had Rhaegar survived?

To try to have Rhaegar marry Cersei and have their children be the future heirs. I'm not saying he'd do it the same way as in canon. Maybe if Tywin get's to King's Landing first he can have them burned and blame it on Aerys since Aerys would be paranoid Rhaegar was coming for his Throne. Tywin could tell Rhegar it was Aerys' wildfire or something. Or maybe down the line he'd have Pycelle give something to Elia who has health problems and to baby Aegon since infants die all the time in this universe. I feel like Tywin would want something more for House Lannister then just being on the small council or even being the Hand again. Tywin still wanted Cersei to be Queen which is why she's still unwed even after Rhaegar was married to Elia for years.

[Ckram]

2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I feel like Tywin would want something more for House Lannister then just being on the small council or even being the Hand again. Tywin still wanted Cersei to be Queen which is why she's still unwed even after Rhaegar was married to Elia for years.

Yeah, it is in the books.

A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

[Lady bonehead]

Tywin tells Tyrion that he was afraid of what Jayme would do, and this was apparently a major concern (note the closed fist).  I guess we will never know, but I wonder what he actually expected Jaime to do.  Kill Aerys? (Probably not, since Tywin was unaware of the wildfire plot).  Die protecting Aerys? (Likely that Tywin sent men to prevent this scenario).  Protect Elia and the kids instead, thereby thwarting Tywin's plan? (possible). Seize the throne? (unlikely, but Jaime himself actually considered it).