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Illyrio and Lys


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46 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Never liked much the theory of Varys being secretly a woman. I never thought it added anything useful to the plot.

But lately i have changed my mind to a particular scenario. Varys = Serra kind of solves a number of issues presented in this thread.

granted it lacks much more evidence to be credible. But still, i think it would be an awesome twist (if Aegon was indeed son of illyrio and "serra").

It is crap. I never bothered to read anything about it, just as I've no idea how the High Septon = Howland Reed theory works. The only thing you need to know there is that Varys' entire character would be for nothing if he wasn't a eunuch. The most memorable and interesting part about him is the story of his castration. That's not going to be some fancy lie.

As to Serra, I'm not sure she even existed. It would be a much neater solution if it turned out that Lemore was Aegon's mother and 'Serra's picture' actually just a picture of Daenerys. The only man who ever talks about this Serra woman is Illyrio.

33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

An argument full of misdirection.

The male line's dead. Female line isn't. There's no reason to think Blackfyre's daughters and their children went anywhere else than Tyrosh, let alone sold to Lys as bedslaves or other type of slaves.

There is no reason to assume that the Blackfyres would have stayed in Tyrosh, either. We don't have any information what happened to them, aside of those we know died. The idea that because we know where Aenys Blackfyre was when he wrote his letter and that Bittersteel, Rohanne, and Haegon (and presumably the other children) were in Tyrosh in 211 AC isn't evidence that they remained there the entire time.

And you know that. If you want to claim that they did you have to provide evidence that this is the case.

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  1. Even if a grandson or great grandson via Blackfyre's daughters had a by blow in a pillow house of Lys, while spending his Golden Company earnings there, George would still put in Tyroshy-tie hints in there.

How do you know what George would do? There is no reason to assume that he always has to connect the Blackfyres to Tyrosh. Rohanne Webber has the same given name as Rohanne Blackfyre yet nothing indicates they have anything to do with each other.

And nobody has said that a Blackfyre would have to have lived in Lys at any time as a Blackfyre. Varys' mother - possibly a sister or daughter of Maelys the Monstrous or the fourth Daemon Blackfyre Maelys had previously killed - might have been sold into slavery and ended up in Lys where Varys was eventually born a slave.

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  1. The War of the 9 penny kings was the war where the last Blackfyre of the male line, who was commander of the sellsword Golden Company fought and died. What the hell has that got anything to do the female line?

Nothing, but nobody said anything about 'the female line' being only 'the line of Daemon's daughters'. Daemon's sons and grandsons could have daughters of their own, daughters who might also have had male descendants. The best guess is that Varys and Illyrio are cousins from different branches of the Blackfyre tree, with Varys being the one close to the senior male line, and Illyrio being the one who is descended both from Daemon Blackfyre and Aegor Rivers.

In addition, you might recall that the Band of Nine actually conquered Tyrosh and installed Alequo Adarys as the Tyrant of Tyrosh there. The chances that any Blackfyre descendants remaining there survived the restoration of the Archon is not all that likely.

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:lmao: Where did I say there were "Brightflames". I said a possible Brightflame descendant.

That is the same as far as I'm concerned. Aerion's son was a Targaryen or a Targaryen bastard, not 'a Brightflame descendant'. Brightflame isn't a (family) name. It is an epithet like 'Stormborn'.

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Aerion was sent into exile to Lys for a while, and it has been admitted, though not confirmed, that he might have fathered bastards during that time.

Robert might also have fathered a bastard on Tanda Stokeworth on the privy once, but the fact that this is a possibility doesn't make it so. We have no reason to assume that Aerion had any bastards (in Lys or elsewhere) until such a time as they are mentioned.

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Varys wasn't interested in Westeros for years. It was Aerys who was interested in him and invited him over.

That is one side of the coin, apparently. It is the official story. The other part of the coin and the unofficial story is how the hell Aerys II learned that Varys existed and why the hell Varys took the offer of this Mad King. What could Aerys offer Varys that Illyrio and Pentos could not give him? Illyrio and Varys might actually be richer than Aerys, at least insofar as his private property is concerned.

There has to be a good explanation for this. Varys has put his life at risk at Red Keep for decades, giving involving himself in decade-spanning plot. He has to have large stakes in all that and that makes only sense if he feels, on some level, responsible for (the people of) Westeros. Else he would enjoy himself in Illyrio's manse.

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Nope read tWoIaF and its wording. Volantis - "Old Blood", descendants, NOT "pure blood". Find me a quote that says the Old Blood of Volantis are descendent from the cousins and kin of the dragonlords of Valyria. You won't find it. I know. I've looked.

I suggest you reread the section on the wars between Valyria and the Rhoynar. It is crystal clear that the Volantene elite - the ones ruling Valyria then and now from behind the walls of the Black Wall - were the cousins and kin of the dragonlords of Valyria. There were even three dragonlords who teamed up with their Volantene cousins to destroy Sarhoy, and later possibly the same three dragonlords faced Prince Garin at Volon Therys.

There were dragonlords who had personal investments in Volantis through their cousins there, and those dragonlords were likely the one who instigated the ultimate destruction of the Rhoynar by dragonfire.

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Volantis was a military outpost, not a dragonlord outpost. Dragonlords only went there once in a while for parlays.

Volantis began as a military outpost but it was the largest Free City by the time the Rhoynar were destroyed, ruled by a Valyrian elite who were kin to the dragonlords.

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They went to Lys for the leisure times. Also Valyrians aren't all dragonlord families either.

Nobody said either of those things.

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Doubtful. If he had even a clearer picture of Essos, he would have sent Steffon for Lys first. Steffon found no suitable bride after all in Volantis, did he? Or did you read some other book than I have? 

Aerys II may have known that there are more whores and peasants with Valyrian features in Lys than ancient and prestigious families. The Rogares seem to be extinct, Serenei was the last of her line, the Saans are still there but more notorious than noble. Aerys II was looking for a noble bride of pure-blooded Valyrian descent for his heir, not for the daughter of some merchant prince. Volantis is the most ancient Free City, the one with the closest ties to Valyria back in the day. If there was a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar to be found she would have been there.

And perhaps she was. But there is little reason to believe that the more powerful families of the Old Blood saw much profit in marrying one of their own to the heir of a mad king half the world away who was running a backwater feudal monarchy.

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Oh, right. "Hi, daddy! Sorry, that I ran away, but no need to worry over me now. I've become the owner of a pleasure house in Voantis. Love you always, Saera."

Honestly, why not? If she was happy where she was she could have wanted to let her parents know.

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No, I don't base theories on this alone. It's just more added information that fits. Never is it said that Jaehaereys believed Saera to have returned from Volantis. It is only said he believed her to come back from across the narrow sea. Which is very vague. It's quite logical that he didn't know where she ended up, especially given the business she ended up owning.

That is just speculation. Give me proof that Jaehaerys I or his immediate successors didn't find out where she was. Daemon and Laena later traveled through the Free Cities with their dragons. They might have found out. And many people from court and Westeros would have traveled to Volantis in the centuries to come. Why on earth do you think Steffon was the first to hear tales about Saera? The Westerosi actually visiting her brothel would have heard who and what she was long before he could have. And they would have brought the story to Westeros.

In addition, Saera was a foreigner and not exactly a guest of honor which means her brothel would have been on the western border. Steffon would have been admitted behind the Black Wall to treat with the Old Blood. He and his retinue would not have frequented any brothels and the like across the bridge.

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Typical straw man arguments again. You like making those, don't you? Do you really think it works?

Where did I say Steffon gave a shit about a long dead Targaryen princess, that he had a thing for history, or that he was obsessed with the younger children of Jaehaerys? I didn't.

You said the man would have wasted paper in an official letter to his king to write about a rumor of a Targaryen princess turning brothel owner. If Steffon wanted to tell his royal cousin such a tale he would have done so in person, not in some letter. And it is actually not likely that he would have done so in any case because cousin Aerys was a paranoid madman by that time, unlikely to find a story about a Targaryen princess turning brothel keeper particularly entertaining. Or do you think Aerys would have found the idea amusing that a member of his ancient and noble line would run a brothel?

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What I'm proposing is that while he inquired and searched for the "suitable bride" for Rhaegar Targaryen in Volantis, it's quite likely that he heard a tale about a Tagaryen princess who ended up owning a brothel. Steffon didn't travel by himself. There would have been liege men with him, who tend to frequent brothels. And such a tale might have ended up in a report, along with his lack of success in his actual quest.

That certainly could have happened, but if it did then it would have been an old story. Steffon wasn't the first Westerosi since Saera to visit Volantis.

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What has one to do with the other? Nothing. Varys and Illyrio could find it interesting to investigate and search for a Targ bastard descendant in Lys, without Rhaegar being married.

You said this:

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And 278 AC is a far better timing for them to snoop around Lyseni pillow houses, and the first hatching of a plan to father a substitution.

A substitution for whom? A non-existing child that might never be killed? That doesn't make any sense.

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He was in KL for sure by 280 AC. But it must have been earlier.

Some time after Duskendale. Perhaps in 278 AC. There is no reason Varys was in KL prior to Duskendale.

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Illyrio links Aerys showing interest in hiring Varys to the same time that the Prince of Pentos allowed him to marry his cousin, because by then he was rich enough already. There would be some years between marrying the Prince's cousin, finding Serra, eventually marrying her.

The latter doesn't have to be the case. We don't know the circumstances of Illyrio's marriage to Serra (or honestly, whether she even existed). There is no reason to assume that this was a long romance or something of that sort. If she was just a whore supposed to give birth to a fake Aegon it wouldn't have been that difficult to marry her. And it is quite clear that Aegon was born only after the Sack - assuming he is Illyrio's son -, most likely in the year 284 AC, just as Daenerys, since it would have been (the manner of) Aegon's death that triggered the entire plan.

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In light of the information from Jon Connington's chapter provides us it does. It is significant to when he says and to whom. That he speaks of Dany this way to Tyrion when telling him that's whom he's to seek out, but actually accompanying Aegin to her - sure. To still refer to dead Viserys, after he ended up being killed by molten gold poured over his head, 2 years after... hmmm, a bit much. 

How so? If Dany is the queen, Viserys was the king. And you are aware that Illyrio is keeping a lot of stuff from Tyrion in that conversation. He tells him about Dany but not about Aegon.

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Tristan Rivers knew Aegon was Aegon (just like every other captain present), Strickland knew it. They knew why they were meeting with JonCon there. They know about ships meant to sail Dany with dragons back to Pentos. They know about Khal Drogo, etc.

And what does this quote say? It talks about Tristan Rivers' interpretation of Illyrio's plan. It doesn't say anything about Illyrio's actual plan, nor does it state that Tristan Rivers actually talked to the fat man. It also doesn't say when Rivers and the other officers learned what they knew. That they knew about Aegon when the gang arrived there is clear, but that doesn't mean they knew anything about Aegon back when they were making the Viserys-Drogo-Strickland plan.

I'm not doubting that Saera-Serra might be a nod by the author to indicate that Serra might be a variation of a Valyrian name the Targaryens also used. But to use that as evidence for a theory about Serra being a descendant of Saera is ridiculous.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is crap. I never bothered to read anything about it, just as I've no idea how the High Septon = Howland Reed theory works. The only thing you need to know there is that Varys' entire character would be for nothing if he wasn't a eunuch. The most memorable and interesting part about him is the story of his castration. That's not going to be some fancy lie.

As to Serra, I'm not sure she even existed. It would be a much neater solution if it turned out that Lemore was Aegon's mother and 'Serra's picture' actually just a picture of Daenerys. The only man who ever talks about this Serra woman is Illyrio.

 

most memorable, and probably false part of his story. Whats the point? are we going to meet that mysterious wizard at some point? was the ceremony useful to advance the main plot in some way? The demon is going to make an appearance? the only relevant effect storywise of the castration ritiual is that apparently varys hates magic after that....yet he is willing to invade westeros with dragons :rolleyes:... sounds like crap to me....completely useless information as far as im concerned (at least for now).

Theres really no way of telling what is true and what not about varys.

Well yes. Serra could be just a cover story. point was. Serra = (f)aegons mother. all her backstory could very well be false.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

most memorable, and probably false part of his story. Whats the point? are we going to meet that mysterious wizard at some point? was the ceremony useful to advance the main plot in some way? The demon is going to make an appearance? the only relevant effect storywise of the castration ritiual is that apparently varys hates magic after that....yet he is willing to invade westeros with dragons :rolleyes:... sounds like crap to me....completely useless information as far as im concerned (at least for now).

The point is that it adds color to Varys as a character. There is something real, something true about him. He has a past and some motivation. He hates sorcery and sorcerers. That is likely to become very important in the future course of the story.

It might also matter why he was castrated in that way and by that person. I doubt the sorcerer will ever be relevant, but what Varys saw and heard might.

We also have reason to believe that Varys was telling the truth there. George went out of his way to show us Varys was not playing a role there, showing his true face for once. His voice changed, grew deeper, etc. The same is true when he talks about Aegon in ADwD, and we are supposed to believe him, too, when he is talking to Kevan.

36 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Theres really no way of telling what is true and what not about varys.

There is. See above.

36 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Well yes. Serra could be just a cover story. point was. Serra = (f)aegons mother. all her backstory could very well be false.

Yeah. The fact that people stumble over themselves buying Illyrio's shit still confuses me. We have no evidence that the woman even existed. There are hints that Illyrio has fatherly feelings for Aegon, sure, but this doesn't mean his mother was truly a Lysene whore named Serra, or that Illyrio loved her.

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3 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Never liked much the theory of Varys being secretly a woman. I never thought it added anything useful to the plot.

There is a theory that Varys is a woman? Can you please share a link or something because that sounds hilarious and I would like to hear more! :rofl:

 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah. The fact that people stumble over themselves buying Illyrio's shit still confuses me. We have no evidence that the woman even existed. There are hints that Illyrio has fatherly feelings for Aegon, sure, but this doesn't mean his mother was truly a Lysene whore named Serra, or that Illyrio loved her.

Serra and Saera are both incredibly similar names. Isn't it possible that Serra is a woman who is just completely made up and her name was inspired by Saera's, as Saera was in Lys briefly before she went to Volantis and GRRM was just pretty much like "fuck it" and decided to give Serra her name?

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On Sun May 21 2017 at 4:33 PM, SeaWitch said:

...you mean put him to stud? Interesting.  Keeping them around until one or the other proved useful, whilst young Aegon was brought up to speed.  

Do you think they were intended to die with the Dothraki, a written-off investment?

Yes for whatever reason I believe Varys has always been studding future Lords I think they were even trying to produce an heir from Tyrion,  the Dothraki were just a diversion.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is that it adds color to Varys as a character. There is something real, something true about him. He has a past and some motivation. He hates sorcery and sorcerers. That is likely to become very important in the future course of the story.

It might also matter why he was castrated in that way and by that person. I doubt the sorcerer will ever be relevant, but what Varys saw and heard might.

We also have reason to believe that Varys was telling the truth there. George went out of his way to show us Varys was not playing a role there, showing his true face for once. His voice changed, grew deeper, etc. The same is true when he talks about Aegon in ADwD, and we are supposed to believe him, too, when he is talking to Kevan.

There is. See above.

Yeah. The fact that people stumble over themselves buying Illyrio's shit still confuses me. We have no evidence that the woman even existed. There are hints that Illyrio has fatherly feelings for Aegon, sure, but this doesn't mean his mother was truly a Lysene whore named Serra, or that Illyrio loved her.

a) he hates sorcery and sorcerers, yet as far as we know he is just fine if (f)Aegon marrys dany and conquer the seven kingdoms with dragons.... "dragons are magic ser davos". Kind of hypocrite dont you think?

b ) I don`t see how GRRM will bring out the motives for the castration later on. It could happen, but for now it has been useless bit of information.

c) Unless you believe that Aegon is a true targaryen, or the double swap version of the (f)Aegon theory.. then you know Varys was lying to Kevan in ADWD..How can you claim his change of tone is evidence of saying the truth back in ACOK? if anything he is telling his biggest lie when his voice changes.

d) i agree. we have no evidence of her existance. Yet she will be somewhat important for the plot. There is no point in George bringing that up, unless she will impact the story to some degree. We already had one example of the rich merchant that marries the bedslave.

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1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

There is a theory that Varys is a woman? Can you please share a link or something because that sounds hilarious and I would like to hear more! :rofl:

 

hahaha i know. i thought the same (i still do, sort of...)

i dont` know if there is a thread that develops the theory, since well... theres not much on the evidence department i admit.

theres a bunch of threads and posts that speculate on it.

This is what i remember:

Theres a bunch of times, Varys is associated with women. We can all agree he is pretty effeminate. The Eunuch cover is pretty genius, since it would explain that, as well as the lack of facial hair. The Spider symbology is as usually associated with femininity.

 

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Varys giggled like a little girl.

(...)

"Varys?" Tyrion slipped inside. "Are you there?" A single candle lit the gloom, spicing the air with the scent of jasmine.
"My lord." A woman slided into the light; plump, soft, matronly, with a round pink moon of a face and heavy dark curls. Tyrion recoiled. "Is something amiss?" she asked.
Varys, he realized with annoyance. "For one horrid moment I thought you'd brought me Lollys instead of Shae. Where is she?"

(...)

"I am sorry." Varys wrung his hands. "You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it."

 

 

 
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"Are you suggesting that Cersei's fucking Osmund Kettleblack?"
"Oh, dear me, no, that would be dreadfully dangerous, don't you think? No, the queen only hints . . . perhaps on the morrow, or when the wedding's done . . . and then a smile, a whisper, a ribald jest . . . a breast brushing lightly against his sleeve as they pass . . . and yet it seems to serve. But what would a eunuch know of such things?" The tip of his tongue ran across his lower lip like a shy pink animal.

 

 
 
What would varys (serra) know of female seducation?
 
 
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And Aerion . . . I remember, when I was little, he used to come into my bedchamber at night and put his knife between my legs. He had too many brothers, he’d say, maybe one night he’d make me his sister, then he could marry me.

Many readers have pointed out these line to support the Varys Targaryen theory. But it works this way as well i think

In fact, think of Lysonno Maar for a second.

 A Valyrian transvestite from lys, who serves as master of whispers in the golden company.... exactly like Varys (serra) just the other way around. he is a man who dresses like a woman,

We know like 3 things about Serra. one of which:

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Magister Illyrio closed the locket. "I keep her hands in my bedchamber. Her hands that were so soft …"

 
The eunuch spread his soft hands.
(...)
who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand.
(...)
Varys gave the king an unctuous smile and laid a soft hand on Ned's sleeve.
(...)
Varys was wringing his soft hands together,
(...)
"The poor child," murmured Varys. "A love so true and innocent, Your Grace, it would be cruel to deny it … and yet, what can we do? Her father stands condemned." His soft hands washed each other in a gesture of helpless distress.
(...)
"Why are you so helpful, my lord Varys?" he asked, studying the man's soft hands
(...)
Varys stood over the brazier, warming his soft hands.
(...)
"Indeed." Varys laid a soft hand on the queen's sleeve.
(...)
Varys caught up with him as he was crossing the yard. "My lord," he said, a little out of breath. "You had best read this at once." He held out a parchment in a soft white hand. "A report from the north."
(...)
He stood in a pool of shadow by a bookcase, plump, pale-faced, round-shouldered, clutching a crossbow in soft powdered hands. Silk slippers swaddled his feet.
"Varys?"

 

Theres like 6 or 7 men in the entire series described as having "soft hands"...each one just once. Except Varys. Virtually every time he appears.

 
 
 
 
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1 hour ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

hahaha i know. i thought the same (i still do, sort of...)

i dont` know if there is a thread that develops the theory, since well... theres not much on the evidence department i admit.

theres a bunch of threads and posts that speculate on it.

This is what i remember:

Theres a bunch of times, Varys is associated with women. We can all agree he is pretty effeminate. The Eunuch cover is pretty genius, since it would explain that, as well as the lack of facial hair. The Spider symbology is as usually associated with femininity.

 

 

 
 
 
What would varys (serra) know of female seducation?
 
 

Many readers have pointed out these line to support the Varys Targaryen theory. But it works this way as well i think

In fact, think of Lysonno Maar for a second.

 A Valyrian transvestite from lys, who serves as master of whispers in the golden company.... exactly like Varys (serra) just the other way around. he is a man who dresses like a woman,

We know like 3 things about Serra. one of which:

 
The eunuch spread his soft hands.
(...)
who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand.
(...)
Varys gave the king an unctuous smile and laid a soft hand on Ned's sleeve.
(...)
Varys was wringing his soft hands together,
(...)
"The poor child," murmured Varys. "A love so true and innocent, Your Grace, it would be cruel to deny it … and yet, what can we do? Her father stands condemned." His soft hands washed each other in a gesture of helpless distress.
(...)
"Why are you so helpful, my lord Varys?" he asked, studying the man's soft hands
(...)
Varys stood over the brazier, warming his soft hands.
(...)
"Indeed." Varys laid a soft hand on the queen's sleeve.
(...)
Varys caught up with him as he was crossing the yard. "My lord," he said, a little out of breath. "You had best read this at once." He held out a parchment in a soft white hand. "A report from the north."
(...)
He stood in a pool of shadow by a bookcase, plump, pale-faced, round-shouldered, clutching a crossbow in soft powdered hands. Silk slippers swaddled his feet.
"Varys?"

 

Theres like 6 or 7 men in the entire series described as having "soft hands"...each one just once. Except Varys. Virtually every time he appears.

 
 
 
 

Damn, maybe Varys is the woman known as Serra and maybe he (or she?) is the female Blackfyre line.

Also, how do you know that Lysono Maar is a transvestite? I know many characters think he is a woman when they first see him, but do we know for certain?

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On 5/9/2017 at 6:40 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I've noticed that Ilyrio has quite a lot of slaves from Lys; his wife Serra was a Lysene, Doreah was another Lysene and then there is his "newest addition", the unknown girl simply known as Girl bought to please a king.

Not to mention, that he is best friends with Varys, who is also from Lys.

Illyrio seems to have quite a few ties to Lys.

There is a theory that Varys and Serra were siblings from either a Blackfyre line or from Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen, because he spent many years of exile in Lys and most likely fathered a few bastards (GRRM even confirmed this possibility).

Is it possible that Doreah and the Girl are also similar descendants from either line? Sure, they'd most definately be bastards of bastards, but Illyrio did indeed say that house Blackfyre is still alive in the female line. Could this female line be from these many Lyseni women and girls that Illyrio buys? It is after all not that long ago since Aerion was in Lys and bastards from a Westerosi could be rather easy to track down.

 

Edit: Also, two of these three women are relatively young, but seemingly speak the Common Tongue very well, almost fluently. Could it be because of their heritage?

Possible that Varys, Illyrio or Serra are Blackfyres, just not sure how GRRM wants to do it.

While there may be some issues with either of the three, I keep asking myself why?  Why are Varys & Illyrio ever interested in Westeros in the first place?

They've got a great thing going with the mice & stealing secrets and/or goods and Illyrio brokering their return.  Their/his investments have led to him being a magister & marrying into nobility.  I don't see evidence of a monetary gain so far for their 'investment' into Westeros.  It seems so far that their investment is personal/political.  If was about Westeros, plenty of other Houses they could have backed, but that this 'restoration' plan is hatched and that the two have their hands on all three supposed dragons suggests a connection and motivation.  While I do think Varys lied to Kevan in part, I do think he was telling the truth insofar that Aegon has been raised to be a good ruler and so on.  Whether he's legit or not is suspect.

If we suggest that Illyrio & Varys' motivation is wealth through power on the I.T. didn't they have that with Aerys, or have opportunity?  Perhaps it was disrupted?  Yet, Robert's reign was loose for the most part, as evidenced by LF fleecing the treasury, plenty of opportunity for them to profit then as well.

It seems to suggest a deeper reasoning for their interest and personal investment, when there are likely many safer options in terms of Varys.

The way Illyrio speaks about Aegon suggests a fondness that is paternal, but not proof positive that Aegon is his son.  I think Aegon's identity is enough of a question that the Blackfyre motive has to be considered.  What if the Blackfyres finally got together and said hey look, we're not successful in these overt rebellions, but if the passion for their believed rightful place still persists, they could use subterfuge to gain the I.T., especially now that it can also be attached to or primarily put forth as a Targaryen restoration.  It would be the ultimate revenge for House Blackfyre, but perhaps bittersweet to have to share the I.T. with the House that had been their own blood but considered superior to them.  That's indeed a weird dynamic, but so is the second option of Aegon being Rhaegar's son.  If Aegon just has the look but his parents are from the female line, that works but then the mystery is in why the two put forth an impostor over the real deal in Viserys & or Daenerys.  Perhaps Aegon wasn't meant or intended to be the 'Targaryen' to rally around in the beginning, but it's my belief he was.  It is with that belief that I question what their ultimate motivation is considering their ability to garner wealth outside of Westeros or her politics.

 

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5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Serra and Saera are both incredibly similar names. Isn't it possible that Serra is a woman who is just completely made up and her name was inspired by Saera's, as Saera was in Lys briefly before she went to Volantis and GRRM was just pretty much like "fuck it" and decided to give Serra her name?

He chose the name Serra first in aDwD (2011). He published all the backstory for the Targaryen kings and princes and princesses for the World book (2014). Elio and Linda wrote parts of the World book based on George's notes, but the Targaryen Kings section was something he kept control over. He published the backstory the Rogue Prince in 2015, which is supposed to be about Daemon Targaryen, but starts with Jaehaerys believing that Alicent is Saera. While a lot of it was written years ago, he still polished it all for publication and wrote more than he already had. 

So, imo we're meant to furrow our eyebrows when rereading Rogue Prince and think - who's Saera and her sisters again? That lands you in the world book where you neatly get each of the sisters' bacckstory in a paragraph. And the moment you start wondering who Illyrio's Serra might be, Saera Targaryen at least is bound to be held under consideration, especially if you're open minded about the fact that some Blackfyre descendant through the female line begot a child on a bedslave, or Aerion Brightflame did. The first is a hypothetical proposal based on men visiting brothels during their travels, as there are no actual literary ties or mentions of Blackfyres going to or living in Lys. Which is fine. The second is a hypothetical proposal based on the same behvior, but with a supportive mention of Lys. But "women are important too" and Targ princesses are not immune from birthing bastards. Plenty of those are rumored or actually did birth a bastard (one while suppsoedly locked in the Maidenvault, and the mother of Daemon Blackfyre). The proposal that Saera Targaryen ran from the motherhouse because she was preggers and birthed the child in Lys is as valid as the other two. And comparing all three (Blackfyre, Brightflame and Saera) her backstory resonates on several levels with Serra-Aegon more than the other two.

He wrote the Saera and her sisters stuff imo to fit Serra. They're breadcrumbs, sure. But the trail was laid out, and George published the trail after introducing us to the existence of Serra and hinting that she likely is Aegon's mother. It's speculation, sure. It's ALL speculation. It's ridiculous to say "it's only speculation" when that same person speculates Blackfyre this and Blackfyre that, and on top of that speculates that Serra was made up. 

Yes, it is speculation. Certainly no less valid than Blackfyre or Brightflame's by-blows at Lys (and yes @Lord Varys I know that's a nickname, not a House name, but people know who I'm talking of - Egg's mean shit of a brother who ended up drinking wildfire) and when one considers backstory resonance then Seara Targaryen and her sisters resonate extremely well with Serra-Aegon, more than Blackfyre or Brightflame (and I will keep using that as a reference).

  • x = Blackfyre? We know there are still Blackfyres around via the female line. But we have no evidence that they were or are connected to Lys or Pentos.
  • x = descended from a line of bastards by Brightflame while he was at Lys? We know Brightflame was at Lys which has lots of pleasure houses. We have no actual evidence that he fathered anyone there.
  • x = descended from a line of bastards birthed by Saera Targaryen at Lys? We know that Saera was at Lys for a while. We have no actual evidence that she was pregnant or delivered a child.
  • Aegon is Serra's son? We have no actual evidence that she had a child or son.
  • Serra didn't exist and is made up lie by Illyrio? Total tinfoil, because her existence doesn't please a certain reader and might interfere with certain reader's desires for Aegon's blood, and convictions and beliefs and desires about Varys and Illyrio.
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11 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Serra and Saera are both incredibly similar names. Isn't it possible that Serra is a woman who is just completely made up and her name was inspired by Saera's, as Saera was in Lys briefly before she went to Volantis and GRRM was just pretty much like "fuck it" and decided to give Serra her name?

I'm actually not sure those names are so similar. You would pronounce 'Saera' by stressing the 'ae' diphthong. In 'Serra' there is neither a diphthong nor an 'rr'.

I actually pronounce those names pretty differently. If you want a better comparison, Serra just seems to be a shorter version of the name 'Viserra', an elder sister of Princess Saera.

10 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

a) he hates sorcery and sorcerers, yet as far as we know he is just fine if (f)Aegon marrys dany and conquer the seven kingdoms with dragons.... "dragons are magic ser davos". Kind of hypocrite dont you think?

Do we know whether Varys knows that dragons are living magic? No, we actually don't. It is not unlikely that he does know - but then, if he is a Targaryen relation he himself has 'magical blood', too, so that's not likely going to be an issue. 

But we actually don't know what plans Varys has for the dragons. Perhaps he wants to kill them when they are no longer needed? We don't know that.

10 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

b ) I don`t see how GRRM will bring out the motives for the castration later on. It could happen, but for now it has been useless bit of information.

It might be connected to Varys' origins. That he was chosen as a sacrifice because of his special blood.

10 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

c) Unless you believe that Aegon is a true targaryen, or the double swap version of the (f)Aegon theory.. then you know Varys was lying to Kevan in ADWD..How can you claim his change of tone is evidence of saying the truth back in ACOK? if anything he is telling his biggest lie when his voice changes.

Could be. But then we would basically know nothing about Varys. We are not likely ever going to get his POV. Just as we don't get Littlefinger's. He could also have lied when he told Lysa that he only loved Cat. Perhaps that was just another lie, a way to hurt her when he killed her? We don't know but we usually buy it as the truth.

10 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

d) i agree. we have no evidence of her existance. Yet she will be somewhat important for the plot. There is no point in George bringing that up, unless she will impact the story to some degree. We already had one example of the rich merchant that marries the bedslave.

I think Illyrio's own relationship with Aegon will be explored. But not so much the mother. Not if she is dead. If it turns out to be Lemore it will come up again but not if she is dead. Illyrio might then tell Aegon something about her but the focus of the story will be on Illyrio being Aegon's father if that's how the story goes.

8 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

What if the Blackfyres finally got together and said hey look, we're not successful in these overt rebellions, but if the passion for their believed rightful place still persists, they could use subterfuge to gain the I.T., especially now that it can also be attached to or primarily put forth as a Targaryen restoration.  It would be the ultimate revenge for House Blackfyre, but perhaps bittersweet to have to share the I.T. with the House that had been their own blood but considered superior to them.

Whoever Varys and Illyrio are they are not Blackfyres. Not really. They might be Blackfyre descendants but they do not bear that name. House Blackfyre is extinct in the male line. 

Revenge isn't the game. If it was they would want revenge against the Targaryens and that would have meant that Illyrio would have killed Viserys and Dany quietly (and perhaps very cruelly) when they were in his power. That way his Blackfyre ancestors would have been avenged.

Instead, they are working with them. The Targaryens suffered the same fate as the Blackfyres, being driven into exile and poverty by a usurper. The enemy or your enemy is your friend. They are working together now. 

The goal of the Aegon plan is to create a king that will bring Westeros a lasting peace. The whole thing is a game to end the game of thrones, not to continue play it. That is why Aegon has to be a Targaryen, not a Blackfyre descendant. He has to have the strongest blood claim, the greatest legitimacy and the looks, skills, and character of a king. That is why they invested so much in his education.

They could have played the game with a Blackfyre pretender, too. If they destroyed the Targaryen dynasty and ensured that Westeros would be ruined by a string of chaotic and destructive civil wars a Blackfyre invading Westeros with the Golden Company could also have set himself as a new king, guaranteeing peace and stability. But he wouldn't have had as much legitimacy as a Targaryen king.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm actually not sure those names are so similar. You would pronounce 'Saera' by stressing the 'ae' diphthong. In 'Serra' there is neither a diphthong nor an 'rr'.

I actually pronounce those names pretty differently. If you want a better comparison, Serra just seems to be a shorter version of the name 'Viserra', an elder sister of Princess Saera.

Do we know whether Varys knows that dragons are living magic? No, we actually don't. It is not unlikely that he does know - but then, if he is a Targaryen relation he himself has 'magical blood', too, so that's not likely going to be an issue. 

But we actually don't know what plans Varys has for the dragons. Perhaps he wants to kill them when they are no longer needed? We don't know that.

It might be connected to Varys' origins. That he was chosen as a sacrifice because of his special blood.

Could be. But then we would basically know nothing about Varys. We are not likely ever going to get his POV. Just as we don't get Littlefinger's. He could also have lied when he told Lysa that he only loved Cat. Perhaps that was just another lie, a way to hurt her when he killed her? We don't know but we usually buy it as the truth.

I think Illyrio's own relationship with Aegon will be explored. But not so much the mother. Not if she is dead. If it turns out to be Lemore it will come up again but not if she is dead. Illyrio might then tell Aegon something about her but the focus of the story will be on Illyrio being Aegon's father if that's how the story goes.

Whoever Varys and Illyrio are they are not Blackfyres. Not really. They might be Blackfyre descendants but they do not bear that name. House Blackfyre is extinct in the male line. 

Revenge isn't the game. If it was they would want revenge against the Targaryens and that would have meant that Illyrio would have killed Viserys and Dany quietly (and perhaps very cruelly) when they were in his power. That way his Blackfyre ancestors would have been avenged.

Instead, they are working with them. The Targaryens suffered the same fate as the Blackfyres, being driven into exile and poverty by a usurper. The enemy or your enemy is your friend. They are working together now. 

The goal of the Aegon plan is to create a king that will bring Westeros a lasting peace. The whole thing is a game to end the game of thrones, not to continue play it. That is why Aegon has to be a Targaryen, not a Blackfyre descendant. He has to have the strongest blood claim, the greatest legitimacy and the looks, skills, and character of a king. That is why they invested so much in his education.

They could have played the game with a Blackfyre pretender, too. If they destroyed the Targaryen dynasty and ensured that Westeros would be ruined by a string of chaotic and destructive civil wars a Blackfyre invading Westeros with the Golden Company could also have set himself as a new king, guaranteeing peace and stability. But he wouldn't have had as much legitimacy as a Targaryen king.

Apologies, I got carried away with my thoughts.  I don't necessarily believe that Vengeance is the current goal, just a motivation factor for the Blackfyres.  When Illyrio says Black or Red it doesn't matter, a dragon is a dragon... it made me wonder if there is a Blackfyre angle still at play, that they themselves may have opted for a new approach.  I don't even know that it has to be overt.  It would seem that if GRRM is committed to resolving the Blackfyre issue these three are the most likely candidates, not that there can't be others.  

While I think I understand your reasoning for the need for Aegon to be Targaryen, I differ on that front.  While I admit that I find the swap in KL to be less believable than either Illyrio, or Serra or Aegon being Blackfyre descendants, I do realize that it may come to pass.    We don't know enough of Varys' personal opinion on Rhaegar if he was whom a just ruler was thought to be like they seem to believe in Aegon, if your theory ends up being the correct one.  It's my belief that they have a more personal stake in the outcome than simply, a good king to bring peace.  Hell Robert had relative peace but this plot was hatched before he even sat his @ss on the I.T., most likely.  I am still unconvinced that they only want peace.  Again, why get involved in the first place?  There is more of a reason besides the future of Westeros.  I could be onboard this perhaps with more information on Illyrio and Varys, but so far, I don't buy that they're Westeros Humanitarians.

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16 minutes ago, Khal Varys said:

Apologies, I got carried away with my thoughts.  I don't necessarily believe that Vengeance is the current goal, just a motivation factor for the Blackfyres.  When Illyrio says Black or Red it doesn't matter, a dragon is a dragon... it made me wonder if there is a Blackfyre angle still at play, that they themselves may have opted for a new approach.  I don't even know that it has to be overt.  It would seem that if GRRM is committed to resolving the Blackfyre issue these three are the most likely candidates, not that there can't be others.  

There is a certain chance that revenge may have been part of the original game they played when Varys first went to Westeros. After all, there are people (Selmy and Jaime) who believe Varys gave bad advice to Aerys and fueled his paranoia.

The most glaring hole in that theory is the fact that Varys and Illyrio did nothing during the Rebellion when they could actually have brought in Illyrio as a Blackfyre pretender to set himself up as the rebel leader instead of Robert. If Varys manipulated crucial events behind the scenes it would be very odd if he didn't saw the Rebellion coming.

Varys' own reason to go to Westeros and his continuing investment in the government and people of that kingdom does need an explanation. Varys isn't a Westerosi by birth. Why doesn't he work to better the situation or take over Lys (where he was allegedly born), Myr (where he once lived as a thief), or Pentos (where he and Illyrio have a lot of power anyway)? There has to be a good answer to that question.

16 minutes ago, Khal Varys said:

While I think I understand your reasoning for the need for Aegon to be Targaryen, I differ on that front.  While I admit that I find the swap in KL to be less believable than either Illyrio, or Serra or Aegon being Blackfyre descendants, I do realize that it may come to pass.    We don't know enough of Varys' personal opinion on Rhaegar if he was whom a just ruler was thought to be like they seem to believe in Aegon, if your theory ends up being the correct one.  It's my belief that they have a more personal stake in the outcome than simply, a good king to bring peace.  Hell Robert had relative peace but this plot was hatched before he even sat his @ss on the I.T., most likely.  I am still unconvinced that they only want peace.  Again, why get involved in the first place?  There is more of a reason besides the future of Westeros.  I could be onboard this perhaps with more information on Illyrio and Varys, but so far, I don't buy that they're Westeros Humanitarians.

The Aegon plan as it is clearly is either an outgrowth of Varys actually hiding the real Aegon (as a precaution, just as Cersei later disguises Tommen as a page and gets him out of the city) or the opportunity the death of the real Aegon provided.

The point of Aegon is to be a good and great king of Westeros. That much is clear. Peace and prosperity for 'the children' are Varys' endgame. It is not about Aegon being king, it is about what Aegon is supposed to embody and bring about. If he fails at that Varys is not all that unlikely to discard him. He doesn't want to give Westeros another tyrant, he wants to create a lasting peace.

The problem of Robert's regime is that it was rotten to the core. He had two ambitious brothers who were both willing to kill each other and the wife and children of their brother, and a wife who actually cuckolded him. Robert was sort of accepted as king, but only grudgingly, and mostly only because of his prowess in battle. The Ironborn tried to secede, and later the North and the Riverlands played the same game. 

A Targaryen king can unite the Realm again, and create a permanent peace. If they don't return then the Realm is going to break apart for good, and the common people will suffer. There are a lot of ambitious people left who still want to have all. Euron shows that pretty clear right now. He has no claim to anything yet he still wants the Iron Throne.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no reason to assume that the Blackfyres would have stayed in Tyrosh, either. We don't have any information what happened to them, aside of those we know died. The idea that because we know where Aenys Blackfyre was when he wrote his letter and that Bittersteel, Rohanne, and Haegon (and presumably the other children) were in Tyrosh in 211 AC isn't evidence that they remained there the entire time.

The archon would have made marriages with influential merchants, sponsors, etc for his granddaughters. And there's no reason to assume those were killed by a purge, as they wouldn't be Blackfyres by name anymore, but whomever they wed, nor a need to flee if the whomever they married in Tyrosh turned their coat against the Archon. The last confirmed location for the daughters is Tyrosh. Now, I'm sure that after several generations, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren ended up marrying down, rather than up, with boys joining sellsword companies and girls marrying sellsword captains, merchants and pirates, and they might move on to other Free Cities. There could be Blackfyres in Qohor, Norvos, Braavos, Pentos, Volantis, Myr, Lys and Slaver's Bay. I do not outright deny such a possibility, no less, no more.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And you know that. If you want to claim that they did you have to provide evidence that this is the case.

And you have to provide evidence that a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre's daughters moved to Lys. You have no such evidence.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know what George would do? There is no reason to assume that he always has to connect the Blackfyres to Tyrosh.

Because that is how George writes. He sets up literary parallels, works in stuff that would hint at it. And no it's not always name, or confirmed location of origin. It doesn't have to be a literal confirmed tie.

In Aegon's case we have such literary ties, evne though they are not literal ones. Aegon dyes his hair blue and he lies it's because he mourns his mother who was from Tyrosh. That is a literary hint to Tyrosh, and therefore may be a Blackfyre hint. Despite the fact that either his mother was from Dorne (Elia Martell) or from Lys (Serra). But then again, Aegon also hates the blue dye, so he doesn't have the Tyroshi spirit.

Another way to set up such a literary parallel is via that person's personality and preference of dress. A Tyroshi ancestry linked character would be boisterous, loud, loves garish colors for example.  A Bitterfyre descendant (Bittersteel + Carra Blackfyre) would be the previous + choleric, quick to anger, ... Those are identity parallels, rather than just repeating a role or theme. Varys is none of those things. He has no hair to dye either and he walks quietly even when not on slippers.   

That doesn't mean there might appear such literary parallels in tWoW, but they are absent for Varys from aGoT-aDwD. We do have such literary parallels for "murky" Myr when Varys disguises himself as the turnkey, or the begging brother, etc.  And his spymaster dress is more Lyseni and/or Braavosi.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And nobody has said that a Blackfyre would have to have lived in Lys at any time as a Blackfyre. Varys' mother - possibly a sister or daughter of Maelys the Monstrous or the fourth Daemon Blackfyre Maelys had previously killed - might have been sold into slavery and ended up in Lys where Varys was eventually born a slave.

Yes, she might have. But I don't think so, beause of lack of literary hints to Tyrosh. I don't give a flying fuck if you don't care about such things. I do. I take it into account.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, you might recall that the Band of Nine actually conquered Tyrosh and installed Alequo Adarys as the Tyrant of Tyrosh there. The chances that any Blackfyre descendants remaining there survived the restoration of the Archon is not all that likely.

Depends on who they married and whose names they have.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is the same as far as I'm concerned. Aerion's son was a Targaryen or a Targaryen bastard, not 'a Brightflame descendant'. Brightflame isn't a (family) name. It is an epithet like 'Stormborn'.

I KNOW that's not a family name, nor a house name. The guy's nickname was Brightflame. The "descendant of a Targaryen bastard" is meaningless in use, because that will prompt the question, which Targaryen bastard do you mean? Bittersteel? Blackfyre? Bloodraven? Brightflame? Saera? Hence I specify it with a descendant of [self-insert the Targ who went by the nickname] Brightflame. 

You're just being irrelevantly obstinate to be annoying here. And just because of that, from now on, I WILL call them Brightflames on purpose.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert might also have fathered a bastard on Tanda Stokeworth on the privy once, but the fact that this is a possibility doesn't make it so.

So, you can speculate, but I can't? My answer to that: an obscene gesture at the puter screen.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There has to be a good explanation for this.

No there doesn't have to be an explanation for it. Vanity and just plain personal ambition works too. Oh, a king wants me to spy a whole continent for him and will provide me the means (and so will Illyrio) - nice. Some people just like a new challenge once in a while, and find satisfaction in testing their boundaries.

Why do I travel 3-4 countries in 48 hours to catch my plane with every available public transport instaed of gradually working my way up? To see if I can make it. Some people like to challenge themselves, and can't say no to a challenge when offered to them, especially if they making a career out of it. Varys's carreer seems to fit the bill. Sorcerer says "you can die now", and instead he decides to "live" (that's a challenge-response) and does whatever is necessary to survive, getting personal pride out of it. Then h's forced to flee because of a rival and kicked and abused in the new town. Response? I'll show these Pentosi thieves. And it always gets bigger and bigger.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I suggest you reread the section on the wars between Valyria and the Rhoynar. It is crystal clear that the Volantene elite - the ones ruling Valyria then and now from behind the walls of the Black Wall - were the cousins and kin of the dragonlords of Valyria. There were even three dragonlords who teamed up with their Volantene cousins to destroy Sarhoy, and later possibly the same three dragonlords faced Prince Garin at Volon Therys.

I asked for a quote. You didn't provide one.

Here are my quotes, including the one you're referring to instead of quoted -

Quote

 

Others, such as Old Volantis and Lys, were trading colonies first and foremost, founded by wealthy merchants and nobles who purchased the right to rule themselves as clients of the Freehold rather than subjects. These cities chose their own leaders rather than receiving archons dispatched from Valyria (often on dragonback) to oversee them. (tWoIaF, Ancient History: Valyria's children)

There, Volantis was raised by some of the wealthiest men of the Freehold in order to gather up the wealth that flowed down the Rhoyne, and from Volantis their conquering forces crossed the river in great strength. (tWoIaF, Ancient History: The Arrivals of the Andals)

When adventurers, exiles, and traders from the Freehold of Valyria began to expand beyond the Lands of the Long Summer in the centuries after the fall of the Old Empire of Ghis, the Rhoynish princes embraced them at first, and their priests declared that all men were welcome to share the bounty of Mother Rhoyne.
As those first Valyrian outposts grew into towns, and those towns into cities, however, some Rhoynar came to regret the forbearance of their fathers. Amity gave way to enmity, particularly upon the lower river, where the ancient city of Sar Mell and the walled Valyrian town Volon Therys faced each other across the waters, and on the shores of the Summer Sea, where the Free City of Volantis soon rivaled the storied port of Sarhoy, each of them commanding one of Mother Rhoyne's four mouths. [...]
[...] This series of conflicts reached a bloody climax a thousand years ago in the Second Spice War, when three Valyrian dragonlords joined with their kin and cousins in Volantis to overwhelm, sack, and destroy Sarhoy, the great Rhoynar port city upon the Summer Sea. (tWoIaF, Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships)
 
Volantis, the mightiest of the Free Cities, quickly laid claim to Valyria's mantle. Men and women of noble Valyrian blood, though not dragonlords, called for war upon the other cities. The tigers, as those who advocated conquest came to be known, led Volantis into a great conflict with the other Free Cities.[...]  At last, the elephants—the Volantene faction who favored peace, and who were largely drawn from the wealthy tradesmen and merchants who suffered most in the war—took power from the tigers, who favored conquest, and put an end to the fighting. (tWoIaF, Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria)

 

 
The founders of Volantis town and city weren't Valyrian dragonlords, but adventurers, exiles and traders. With the actual founder being the "wealthiest" not the "noblest", and certainly no dragonlord. That man could have been the Valyrian equivalent of a Frey. "Valyrian descent" applies to Valyrian adventurers, exiles and traders just as well. 
 
With the context of merchants, adventurers, certainly "no dragonlords" etc "Kin and cousins" that is very much like Lannisters of Lannisport being kin and cousins to the Lannisters of the Rock, with some of noble stock and many non-noble, but still descendants of the Rock. Meanwhile in Lys it's the focus on "pure blood" rather than having the name of a descendant that makes that even commoners in Lys sport the Valyrian looks. In Lys "pure blood" is determined majorly on having the right looks (because they are recessive), while "old blood" has little to do with nobility nor looks, but basically having the right name.
18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys II was looking for a noble bride of pure-blooded Valyrian descent for his heir, not for the daughter of some merchant prince.

Based on the above - Volantis certainly was an even more wrong place to look for that, hence Steffon only returned with a "fool". As I said, a "fool's errand".

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But there is little reason to believe that the more powerful families of the Old Blood saw much profit in marrying one of their own to the heir of a mad king half the world away who was running a backwater feudal monarchy.

That's unlikely, if they marry daughters to merchants and merchant princes and archons and triarchs of other Free Cities. Some Old Blood family surely would have had a daughter too many.

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
Quote

Oh, right. "Hi, daddy! Sorry, that I ran away, but no need to worry over me now. I've become the owner of a pleasure house in Voantis. Love you always, Saera." (Sweetsunray)

Honestly, why not? If she was happy where she was she could have wanted to let her parents know.

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just speculation. Give me proof that Jaehaerys I or his immediate successors didn't find out where she was.

I guess with these two quotes of yours combined our talk is at an end. You TINFOIL Saera would have sent a letter to Jaehaerys about being the owner of a brothel, and dismiss a reasonable argument given the fact that the other sister rather drowned herself in the Blackwater than say a thing to her parents because it's "SPECULATION". That's the perfect example of nonsensical discussion and debate. Won't even read the rest of that post.

We're done Varys.

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12 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Damn, maybe Varys is the woman known as Serra and maybe he (or she?) is the female Blackfyre line.

Also, how do you know that Lysono Maar is a transvestite? I know many characters think he is a woman when they first see him, but do we know for certain?

Thats where i was going for. Illyrios involvment in the targaryen restoration is usually explained by (f)Aegon theory. He is placing his son on the iron throne. Fair enough

But Varys? Well readers asume he is Serras brother, therefore Aegon his nephew.

But if Varys is Serra.. then it makes more sense IMHO.

He/she could be the implied female line of house blackfyre... or the Brightflame descedent. Depending on which version of the (f)aegon theory you prefer.

We know he kind of dresses like a woman. Painting his fingernails and all that. It would be an awesome hint if Varys were Serra.

again, i admit its a weak theory. Still it has been speculated over the years that Varys was really a woman. I never saw much use in that. What would be the point?

unless, he was specifically Serra. Then yes. The Varys being a woman theory would make much more sense.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do we know whether Varys knows that dragons are living magic? No, we actually don't. It is not unlikely that he does know - but then, if he is a Targaryen relation he himself has 'magical blood', too, so that's not likely going to be an issue. 

But we actually don't know what plans Varys has for the dragons. Perhaps he wants to kill them when they are no longer needed? We don't know that.

 

What else can they be?

Quote

It might be connected to Varys' origins. That he was chosen as a sacrifice because of his special blood.

Kings Blood has power beyond human sacrifice?

Quote

Could be. But then we would basically know nothing about Varys. We are not likely ever going to get his POV. Just as we don't get Littlefinger's. He could also have lied when he told Lysa that he only loved Cat. Perhaps that was just another lie, a way to hurt her when he killed her? We don't know but we usually buy it as the truth.

you misunderstood. I was rebutting your claim that when varys changes his tone of voice, we should pay special attention, because thats when we know he is telling the truth. This happens in ADWD and ACOK.

Yet if one is a believer of the (f)Aegon theory (except the double swap version), we "know" he is lying in ADWD. How can we still believe the change in tone is an identifier of truth? if anything, its when the biggest lies come in.

 

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I think Illyrio's own relationship with Aegon will be explored. But not so much the mother. Not if she is dead. If it turns out to be Lemore it will come up again but not if she is dead. Illyrio might then tell Aegon something about her but the focus of the story will be on Illyrio being Aegon's father if that's how the story goes.

agreed. Still if he is fake, then the identity of his mother should be explained at some point. Whether a random whore or a sion of house blackfyre, or a decedenat of Aerion, it still needs explanation.

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On the name relation: that's why George has a Serra and a Sarra as Frey Twins, because the names are related, they're "twin" names.

People of different parts of the world spell and pronounce a name differently, especially when they speak a different dialect or tongue that is a cousin to the other tongue. My fellow countrymen (Dutch speaking and French speaking) do not pronounce my first name (which is an English name) correctly. They don't know the phonetical hard 'dj' at the start of a word, and no word or native name ends with a double consonant. So, they tend to also write my name wrong. I still recognize my mispronounced and misspelled first name as referring to me within such situations.

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33 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Thats where i was going for. Illyrios involvment in the targaryen restoration is usually explained by (f)Aegon theory. He is placing his son on the iron throne. Fair enough

But Varys? Well readers asume he is Serras brother, therefore Aegon his nephew.

But if Varys is Serra.. then it makes more sense IMHO.

He/she could be the implied female line of house blackfyre... or the Brightflame descedent. Depending on which version of the (f)aegon theory you prefer.

We know he kind of dresses like a woman. Painting his fingernails and all that. It would be an awesome hint if Varys were Serra.

again, i admit its a weak theory. Still it has been speculated over the years that Varys was really a woman. I never saw much use in that. What would be the point?

unless, he was specifically Serra. Then yes. The Varys being a woman theory would make much more sense.

Doh! :blink:

  • Q: Is Varys truly a eunuch, or is it just another of his many disguises?

    GRRM: Guess we won't know till someone takes a peek inside his breeches.

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

On the name relation: that's why George has a Serra and a Sarra as Frey Twins, because the names are related, they're "twin" names.


Hey. Nice catch! George is such a tricksy bird.

 

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