The Unholy Consult SPOILER thread

[kuenjato]

That thread in TGO ends at a climatic moment, flat-out cliffhanger. It could be assumed what Wert has stated, but the result described was surprising (at least to me); I thought it might progress... differently? 

Kal: how do you rate the books, now that you've read TUC? You can include PoN for reference. For me (so far):

1: The Warrior Prophet

2: The Darkness that Comes Before

3: The Thousandfold Thought

4: The White-Luck Warrior

5: The Great Ordeal (tie with...)

6: The Judging Eye

 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

That thread in TGO ends at a climatic moment, flat-out cliffhanger. It could be assumed what Wert has stated, but the result described was surprising (at least to me); I thought it might progress... differently? 

Kal: how do you rate the books, now that you've read TUC? You can include PoN for reference. For me (so far):

1: The Warrior Prophet

2: The Darkness that Comes Before

3: The Thousandfold Thought

4: The White-Luck Warrior

5: The Great Ordeal (tie with...)

6: The Judging Eye

 

Hmm. I think I had TJE as one of my favorites, only below TTT before. (others didn't like it as much, but I thought it did a really good job of the heavy lifting of setup, and the Cil-Aujas part remains my favorite sequence that Bakker has done). 

I think I'd go with something like this:

1. TTT
2. TJE
3. TWP
4. WLW
5. TDTCB
6. TGO
7. TUC

TUC has almost as much fat and setup as TDTCB, possibly more, except this fat feels almost entirely pointless - whereas setting up Kellhus, Cnaiur and Akka is kind of a big deal, even if it's not super exciting. TGO had the incredible Ishterebinth sequence, but sadly I feel like TUC makes TGO worse. It's odd to see it that way, as the stylistic similarities of how TTT and TUC work are really close - but I felt that TTT pulled it off better, and enriched the rest of the series as a whole, whereas TUC made everything somewhat less. That TTT also did it before makes this feel like this is Bakker's thing, too, and the repetition isn't great.

I'm also not someone who goes super gaga about the battle sequences; smaller fights (like, say, Cij-Aujas or Akka's escape from the library) strike home for me. In that respect TUC has one absolutely fucking awesome sequence that I really liked and stuck with me. 

I could easily switch out 5-7 in pretty much any order too, and might change my mind on TUC based on discussions of things I missed. Ultimately TUC failed for me for the same reason that AFFC failed for me personally: it marginalized or pretty much ignored my favorite characters, and that lost my interest. I don't assert this will be the case for everyone, nor do I assert it is bad; as I said in the review, if you're a fan of Bakker specifically this is the most Bakkery Bakker book that ever did Bakker. 

Also, one thing I've not seen noted: holy crap, there are some cringeworthy dialog pieces in here, and the most charitable interpretation of them is that Bakker specifically put them in to fuck with his fans and poke fun at himself and others who take things a bit too seriously. If you thought GRRM's use of things like nuncle and niello were bad, wait until you get a hold of this. 

[Hello World]

Do we get an alternative explanation for why Moënghus left Ishuäl?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Hello World said:

Do we get an alternative explanation for why Moënghus left Ishuäl?

I'm not sure how much I can answer here, even with spoiler tags. PM me if you'd like an answer. (that goes for anyone else that would like spoilery bits).

[kuenjato]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Hmm. I think I had TJE as one of my favorites, only below TTT before. (others didn't like it as much, but I thought it did a really good job of the heavy lifting of setup, and the Cil-Aujas part remains my favorite sequence that Bakker has done). 

I think I'd go with something like this:

1. TTT
2. TJE
3. TWP
4. WLW
5. TDTCB
6. TGO
7. TUC

TUC has almost as much fat and setup as TDTCB, possibly more, except this fat feels almost entirely pointless - whereas setting up Kellhus, Cnaiur and Akka is kind of a big deal, even if it's not super exciting. TGO had the incredible Ishterebinth sequence, but sadly I feel like TUC makes TGO worse. It's odd to see it that way, as the stylistic similarities of how TTT and TUC work are really close - but I felt that TTT pulled it off better, and enriched the rest of the series as a whole, whereas TUC made everything somewhat less. That TTT also did it before makes this feel like this is Bakker's thing, too, and the repetition isn't great.

I'm also not someone who goes super gaga about the battle sequences; smaller fights (like, say, Cij-Aujas or Akka's escape from the library) strike home for me. In that respect TUC has one absolutely fucking awesome sequence that I really liked and stuck with me. 

I could easily switch out 5-7 in pretty much any order too, and might change my mind on TUC based on discussions of things I missed. Ultimately TUC failed for me for the same reason that AFFC failed for me personally: it marginalized or pretty much ignored my favorite characters, and that lost my interest. I don't assert this will be the case for everyone, nor do I assert it is bad; as I said in the review, if you're a fan of Bakker specifically this is the most Bakkery Bakker book that ever did Bakker. 

Also, one thing I've not seen noted: holy crap, there are some cringeworthy dialog pieces in here, and the most charitable interpretation of them is that Bakker specifically put them in to fuck with his fans and poke fun at himself and others who take things a bit too seriously. If you thought GRRM's use of things like nuncle and niello were bad, wait until you get a hold of this. 

Interesting. I place all three TAE about the same, but for different reasons. TJE is easily the tightest and best written of the three, but offers the least action, slowest pace, and features two unsatisfying ending points out of the three arcs; WLW starts and ends great but lags in places; TGO features some awesome scenes but is poorly edited, self-indulgent in places, feels like half a novel, etc.

I feel that with a stronger editorial hand, there wouldn't need to be four books... and from your review of TUC, it seems you feel the same.

Pat says he has no clue what the third series would be called; do you have an inkling? Or an idea of what major conflicts/plotlines could be continued on -- are there distinguishable seeds as to where a third series would naturally progress to?

How is the glossary? Was it worth the split?

Are there any OH BAKKER NO moments?

Does it feel like RSB is purposefully removing content for the next series, reminiscent of the split-book shenanigans/fan manipulation from last year?

Prior to the big battle, which thread is your favorite? 

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

I feel that with a stronger editorial hand, there wouldn't need to be four books... and from your review of TUC, it seems you feel the same.

Spoiler

Yeah, that's pretty well my view. There's at least one whole arc that feels absurdly placed in this, as an example, and really doesn't add a lot to much anything IMO save a really cool speech. Bakker seems to have taken from GRRM the solution to any plot introduction to be 'add more PoVs' to the mix. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Pat says he has no clue what the third series would be called; do you have an inkling? Or an idea of what major conflicts/plotlines could be continued on -- are there distinguishable seeds as to where a third series would naturally progress to?

Spoiler

Yeah, I talked this over with Wert, and there's at least one really obvious answer what it would be. I don't know why Pat wouldn't have a clue. It's certainly clear what the final series is going to be about. 

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

How is the glossary? Was it worth the split?

Spoiler

The glossary is cool. As Wert said, there are a few things in there that are explanations of bits in the novel itself. There are other bits in the glossary that use really weird terminology that hints at more...but again, we don't get that in the book proper. There's the part that Wert talked about in his part 6, which is an entire history of the Unification Wars. There's like a 5-page lineage of the breakdown of linguistic roots, which...uh, okay. And then there are weird omissions, like having no entries on what a skin spy is (though it is referenced several times). I found a lot of it dull - mentions of this random person from history, etc - but there were enough beefy entries that people will likely be happy.

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Are there any OH BAKKER NO moments?

Spoiler

 

Not...exactly. Nothing like Proyas' rape, at least not for me. A good chunk of the book is pretty horrible stuff, honestly, but all of it makes at least some narrative sense and doesn't feel entirely pulled out of ass. Pat went into that more in his review. There's some oddly placed moments that made me groan a bit in terms of producing tension. 

Oh, right. Maybe there is at least one OH BAKKER NO bit, though not at all like Proyas' rape, where I just started laughing at the stupidity of it. It was less horrible and more just...why? Why would you do that? Which is a shame, because the actual sequence it is part of is one of my favorites. 

I will also say that TUC is the funniest of his books, and there are genuinely funny lines here and there. 

 

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Does it feel like RSB is purposefully removing content for the next series, reminiscent of the split-book shenanigans/fan manipulation from last year?

Spoiler

Nah. As I said above, the book could really use a denouement or an epilogue or something that is less abrupt, but I don't think he moved any content that couldn't be here in order to add any suspense. 

8 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Prior to the big battle, which thread is your favorite? 

Spoiler

Ya know, I had to go look it up, because nothing struck me as that great just thinking about it. That's probably not a good sign. I guess my favorite bits are with Akka, though the Mimara/Esme reunion is pretty good. Sorweel has at least one good bit, though most of the rest of his stuff I didn't like very much. 

 

[LuckyCharms]

This is super minor: do we find out in this damn book the linguistic provenance of "Golgotterath." We have had no idea what that's supposed to mean for six books.

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said:

This is super minor: do we find out in this damn book the linguistic provenance of "Golgotterath." We have had no idea what that's supposed to mean for six books.

If there is, it didn't strike me, and there's not a sign of it in the glossary. 

[Madness]

I really wonder what it's going to be like to read this for myself as another random person.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Madness said:

I really wonder what it's going to be like to read this for myself as another random person.

Why were you cut off from reading TUC?

[Hello World]

Do we know who is it from here or TSA forum that bought that $100 ebay copy?

It's kind of weird that that's the only copy that's shown up on ebay as far as I know compared to last year where several copies were sold by this time.

By the way, the copy that you have is a physical one, right, Kalbear? Not an e-arc like Wert and Pat?

[Madness]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Why were you cut off from reading TUC?

Security risk?

EDIT:

8 hours ago, Hello World said:

Do we know who is it from here or TSA forum that bought that $100 ebay copy?

It's kind of weird that that's the only copy that's shown up on ebay as far as I know compared to last year where several copies were sold by this time.

By the way, the copy that you have is a physical one, right, Kalbear? Not an e-arc like Wert and Pat?

Wait, didn't Kalbear buy the eBay copy?

[Kalbear]

I did not buy the eBay copy, though my copy showed up around the same time.

[Kalbear]

Oh wait, madness wasn't cut off, he just isn't telling any one this time. That makes more sense.

[Hello World]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bakker cut him off after what he did the last time...

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Bakker cut him off after what he did the last time...

I would be; as far as I can tell he was just following orders and openly lying about what he had gotten in order to hide the silliness of the two book split being already on the way.

I had thought him and bakker had hung out recently too, but I could be misremembering. 

[Kalbear]

Also, here's one that I was reminded of thanks to TSA:

In the first trilogy (specifically TWP) there's a line something like "Golgotterath had long scoffed at the Mandate and their prattle regarding the Celmomian Prophecy". But they changed their mind between then and the "We must respect the prophecy, both true and false". 

Spoiler

This isn't an error. There's a reason they changed their mind. That reason is revealed.

 

[kuenjato]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, here's one that I was reminded of thanks to TSA:

In the first trilogy (specifically TWP) there's a line something like "Golgotterath had long scoffed at the Mandate and their prattle regarding the Celmomian Prophecy". But they changed their mind between then and the "We must respect the prophecy, both true and false". 

  Reveal hidden contents

This isn't an error. There's a reason they changed their mind. That reason is revealed.

 

Are there a lot of callbacks to mysteries (known or unknown) in the first series? Were there points that made you want to reach for the first series to re-read and unpack hidden elements?

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Are there a lot of callbacks to mysteries (known or unknown) in the first series? Were there points that made you want to reach for the first series to re-read and unpack hidden elements?

Not really. There are a few callbacks here and there but they felt more like Easter eggs than anything else.

[Kalbear]

mrganondorf is running a giveaway at SA again for two TUC ARCs!

Heh. There is precisely one and only one correct prediction so far.