The Unholy Consult SPOILER thread

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

It's confirmed at the end of the book.

 

  Hide contents

Akka dreams of Nau-Cayuti being dug up, taken to Golgotterath, tortured for 2+ years and fed into the Carapace. This is independently verified by other characters in TUC.

 

Yes, and 

Spoiler

it's important to know that Nau-Cayuti is Seswatha's child too, something else that is independently verified. 

 

[Werthead]

@Werthead

Quote

, what's the policy on talking about publicly released previews? Do we need spoiler tags or not?

They're fair game for the spoiler thread, no tags required.

[Kalbear]

Also, @Werthead, you were right - another description of Aurang from TUC is:

Spoiler

The face embedded in the jaws of the greater skull turned up, slicked in mucous, twitching between boredom and a rictus of anguish

So yeah, the idea of a face in the mouth is correct, though I think the way described above is a bit more accurate to thinking.

[Kalbear]

On the first two chapters: the second one is cut pretty short (like 10 pages) and even in the middle of a subchapter, so those of you who have read the thing be careful of spoiling what isn't in there yet. (The WHCB and chapter 1 appear to be intact however).

The important details (most of which we knew about, but some aren't public knowledge):

• Kelmomas and Esmi are alive
• Momemn is destroyed, by earthquake and flooding
• Kellhus comes back specifically for Esmi and Esmi only (or at least states as such)
  • And also specifically he cares nothing for the empire at all.
  • (to be fair, Kellhus is the lying liar who lies, and Esme names him as such)
• Kellhus spares Kelmomas specifically because of the harm it would cause Esmi to lose him
• Malowebi's head is another PoV, albeit briefly
• Kelmomas thinks he's doomed
• Ishterebinth largely falls as the Intact war against each other (at this point it's still not clear if Serwa did some of the destruction)
• Serwa clearly sang plainly for a while
• Lil' Moenghus is another PoV,
  • who was tortured and raped repeatedly to goad Serwa
  • and boy did it not work
  • but it kind of broke Moe
• Moe thinks that Serwa could use sorcery any time she wanted to - and chose not to

 

[Hello World]

So do we know why Momas flooded Momemn?

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Hello World said:

So do we know why Momas flooded Momemn?

Not from that, no.

Spoiler

And not from anything else, as far as I can remember.

 

[Cithrin's Ale]

Really, really hope that Kellhus doesn't actually love Esmi. Even worse, I hope that Esmi doesn't come to love him back. I can't identify why this disgusts me, but it does.

Esmi's love for Kelmomas is silly at this point. She's like a caricature of selfish gene theory.

Initially, I had felt that Moenghus Jr. would be the one to kill Cnaiur out of loyalty to the Anasurimbor. Now I think he might join Cnaiur... 

[akh]

 

51 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

Really, really hope that Kellhus doesn't actually love Esmi. Even worse, I hope that Esmi doesn't come to love him back. I can't identify why this disgusts me, but it does.

Esmi's love for Kelmomas is silly at this point. She's like a caricature of selfish gene theory. 

Him developing big feels will have to written in a very-very convincing way by Bakker, otherwise I can't see it being a satisfying turn of things in any capacity.

As to the other part - disgust makes sense. I mean everything anyone feels towards Kellhus is manufactured. By cold manipulation and force. It disgusts you because it would disgust you if someone hypnotized another being to fall in love with them. I'm no lawyer, but it has got a very rapey vibe to it. If you wanted to push that towards more absurdity - he proudly proclaims the whole of humanity being children compared to him, and chooses to sleep with one then. Fall in love even. Yeah, disgust makes sense.

Leaving that aside, I honestly haven't felt any indication towards Kellhus loving Esmenet up to this point. I don't recollect any build-up towards it either, so again - if Bakker goes with the "love conquers all", I hope he'll do it well. I really hope so.

Esmenet as the mother has been the worst aspect of the second series to me. Her love for Kelmomas is indeed silly, and I fear that part is not going to change.

[Hello World]

I think Kellhus falling in love with Esmi or developing some other attachment to her is fine if Bakker had set it up properly, which he hasn't as far I remember. I can be charitable and assume that he developed that love for her during the unification wars, because they've only been in the same room once in the last three books.

I'm totally fine with Esmi's love for Kelmomas, he appeared fairly normal and loving to her until now, after all. Even after she realized the truth about him I still don't see her easily agreeing to have him killed.

By the way, how did she even know that he's the one that killed Theliopa?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Hello World said:

I'm totally fine with Esmi's love for Kelmomas, he appeared fairly normal and loving to her until now, after all. Even after she realized the truth about him I still don't see her easily agreeing to have him killed.

She didn't want Kellhus killed; she wanted Maithanet killed. She was responsible for WLW getting close, but she didn't want that to happen exactly - though boy does she hate Kellhus. 

Intellectually she knows that Kellhus is a monster. Her emotional values can't reconcile that. She has never forgotten what Akka has said; it just hasn't overriden everything else. In that way she's kind of a typical domestic abuse victim who can't get away. 

Just now, Hello World said:

By the way, how did she even know that he's the one that killed Theliopa?

As Theli dies by masonry, Kelmomas is triumphant and happy and celebrating - and at that very moment Esmi notices his happiness and concludes he at least had something to do with it.  This is from the WHCB part:

Quote

This conviction is confirmed when he watches the man bring about the death of his sister Theliopa—for she, after Maithanet, had been
his greatest threat. But this triumph is instantly transformed into disaster when his mother, wild with grief, spies him celebrating his sister’s death.

 

[Cithrin's Ale]

58 minutes ago, akh said:

Leaving that aside, I honestly haven't felt any indication towards Kellhus loving Esmenet up to this point. I don't recollect any build-up towards it either, so again - if Bakker goes with the "love conquers all", I hope he'll do it well. I really hope so.

There are two occurrences that sort of provide evidence. In TWP, Kellhus is worried when Esmi almost falls when she's climbing up to meet him. In TTT, I vaguely recall Kellhus feeling jealous when Aurang!Esmi tells him that Esmi loves Akka.

I largely dismissed these as what Moenghus calls "vestigial passions." I might have been wrong.

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, akh said:

 

Him developing big feels will have to written in a very-very convincing way by Bakker, otherwise I can't see it being a satisfying turn of things in any capacity.

As to the other part - disgust makes sense. I mean everything anyone feels towards Kellhus is manufactured. By cold manipulation and force. It disgusts you because it would disgust you if someone hypnotized another being to fall in love with them. I'm no lawyer, but it has got a very rapey vibe to it. If you wanted to push that towards more absurdity - he proudly proclaims the whole of humanity being children compared to him, and chooses to sleep with one then. Fall in love even. Yeah, disgust makes sense.

Leaving that aside, I honestly haven't felt any indication towards Kellhus loving Esmenet up to this point. I don't recollect any build-up towards it either, so again - if Bakker goes with the "love conquers all", I hope he'll do it well. I really hope so.

Esmenet as the mother has been the worst aspect of the second series to me. Her love for Kelmomas is indeed silly, and I fear that part is not going to change.

Right? It would be like Jessica Jones or the Voldemort family thing. Just...icky.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I feel pretty good saying that from what I've read of this series, there is so much textual evidence that love has nothing to do with Kellhus and Esmener's life on the second trilogy.  She may have loved him due to his Dunyain manipulations but the idea that Kellhus loves her... Where the fuck does this come from in the books that have been released?

Also...

Is the Heron Spear revealed to be a poor translation of Stork Spear, and if so does it actually refer to Sorwheel's 'little brother'?  

 

[Darth Richard II]

14 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I feel pretty good saying that from what I've read of this series, there is so much textual evidence that love has nothing to do with Kellhus and Esmener's life on the second trilogy.  She may have loved him due to his Dunyain manipulations but the idea that Kellhus loves her... Where the fuck does this come from in the books that have been released?

Also...

Is the Heron Spear revealed to be a poor translation of Stork Spear, and if so does it actually refer to Sorwheel's 'little brother'?  

 

It doesn't, it comes from crackpot theories on the internet.

[Kalbear]

17 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I feel pretty good saying that from what I've read of this series, there is so much textual evidence that love has nothing to do with Kellhus and Esmener's life on the second trilogy.  She may have loved him due to his Dunyain manipulations but the idea that Kellhus loves her... Where the fuck does this come from in the books that have been released?

I think MSJ did a decent job of finding textual references to Kellhus' love. I personally think the problem is that while there are a few places that tell us that Kellhus cares for Esmi (the one I find most convincing is Maithanet telling her that he abandoned the TTT for her), I don't see his actions work particularly convincingly as love, either as a cracked value of love or the real deal. 

If I squint really close, I can see Kellhus kind of trying to do things that someone who has horrible ideas of love does when they 'love' someone. Things like shield the person from harder truths, constantly manipulate and gaslight them, that sort of thing. I can vaguely get that Kellhus believes he cares, though it's so hard to actually think he does when he also constantly says that he is the monster the world needs and the like. 

[Cithrin's Ale]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think MSJ did a decent job of finding textual references to Kellhus' love. I personally think the problem is that while there are a few places that tell us that Kellhus cares for Esmi (the one I find most convincing is Maithanet telling her that he abandoned the TTT for her), I don't see his actions work particularly convincingly as love, either as a cracked value of love or the real deal. 

If I squint really close, I can see Kellhus kind of trying to do things that someone who has horrible ideas of love does when they 'love' someone. Things like shield the person from harder truths, constantly manipulate and gaslight them, that sort of thing. I can vaguely get that Kellhus believes he cares, though it's so hard to actually think he does when he also constantly says that he is the monster the world needs and the like. 

I'm worried that Bakker wants us to buy Kellhus' love as authentic. Even worse, I hope he doesn't want us to see him as a heroic figure who does awful things due to a deep compassion for humanity and his wife.

If this story really does turn out to be Bakker masturbating over his D&D self-insert character, I will be frustrated with myself for wasting time with this series.

[Hello World]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

She didn't want Kellhus killed; she wanted Maithanet killed. She was responsible for WLW getting close, but she didn't want that to happen exactly - though boy does she hate Kellhus. 

I was talking about her agreeing to have Kelmomas killed at Kellhus's behest. I would also note Kellhus saying that Kelmomas "has to be destroyed". I never considered Kelmomas to be one of the more important players at the conclusion of the series, until I read the Kelmomas becomes the No-God theory in the giveaway thread on TSA...

[redeagl]

10 minutes ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

I'm worried that Bakker wants us to buy Kellhus' love as authentic. Even worse, I hope he doesn't want us to see him as a heroic figure who does awful things due to a deep compassion for humanity and his wife.

If this story really does turn out to be Bakker masturbating over his D&D self-insert character, I will be frustrated with myself for wasting time with this series.

Spoiler

It dosen't.

 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Hello World said:

I was talking about her agreeing to have Kelmomas killed at Kellhus behest. I would also note Kellhus saying that Kelmomas "has to be destroyed". I never considered Kelmomas to be one of the more important players at the conclusion of the series, until I read the Kelmomas becomes the No-God theory in the giveaway thread on TSA...

Ah got it. Well, Kelmomas thinks at that moment that she might agree. And yeah, Kelmomas being an important anything seems bizarre to me given the first few books. 

Quote

I'm worried that Bakker wants us to buy Kellhus' love as authentic. Even worse, I hope he doesn't want us to see him as a heroic figure who does awful things due to a deep compassion for humanity and his wife.

Honestly, I don't see this as even a reasonable interpretation even before TUC. He raped one of his best friends; that's pretty clearly a 'this is a bad dude' narrative arc. I think that Kellhus can both believe he loves Esmi and be a horrible person, and I think these things go well together; if you view Kellhus not as a loving person, but as a malignant narcissist who thinks that Esmi should be his and constantly binds her to him while making her feel like shit, his 'love' makes a lot of sense.

[Larry of the Lawn]

54 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think MSJ did a decent job of finding textual references to Kellhus' love. I personally think the problem is that while there are a few places that tell us that Kellhus cares for Esmi (the one I find most convincing is Maithanet telling her that he abandoned the TTT for her), I don't see his actions work particularly convincingly as love, either as a cracked value of love or the real deal. 

If I squint really close, I can see Kellhus kind of trying to do things that someone who has horrible ideas of love does when they 'love' someone. Things like shield the person from harder truths, constantly manipulate and gaslight them, that sort of thing. I can vaguely get that Kellhus believes he cares, though it's so hard to actually think he does when he also constantly says that he is the monster the world needs and the like. 

Well that's a more nuanced take than I had, but I do 'find new things/realize I missed things' every time I read this series, so I will look forward to keeping an eye out for this subject on a a reread.