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The Unholy Consult SPOILER thread


kuenjato

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So...what are people's thoughts on Malowebi's head? Is it a soul keeping, or is his soul in the Outside, or what? Are there any references to headkeeping in the other books?

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Bakker has mentioned some sort of mind-soul duality in the past in reference to why Shae's soul-trapping methods aren't widely used, I believe.  Your soul can be trapped held in the Inward, while your thoughts are in the Outside.  No idea how it works or what Bakker even meant when he said it - but I think that's Malowebi's situation.  It's the same as when Sorweel feels as though somewhere he burned - his soul is temporarily fused with that Nonman's, but a portion of that Nonman's soul is in the Outside even as it's bound to the thingamajig.

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Just now, Damned with the Wind said:

Bakker has mentioned some sort of mind-soul duality in the past in reference to why Shae's soul-trapping methods aren't widely used, I believe.  Your soul can be trapped held in the Inward, while your thoughts are in the Outside.  No idea how it works or what Bakker even meant when he said it - but I think that's Malowebi's situation.  It's the same as when Sorweel feels as though somewhere he burned - his soul is temporarily fused with that Nonman's, but a portion of that Nonman's soul is in the Outside even as it's bound to the thingamajig.

To me, it was pretty surprising as there was no mention of anyone preserving anyone's actual head previously, and from the small tidbit it appears that it's actually Malowebi's thoughts - not just some thing on his hip, gibbering madly. if Kellhus studied the Daimos and gets MetaDaimos abilities, perhaps this is new - but it seems incredibly useful to have, well, a bunch of dead people's perpetually preserved heads hanging around, kind of like Futurama, and now I'm sad that we don't have the Scarlet Spires with a bunch of heads.

It also implies to me that perhaps Seswatha's heart is Daimotic in nature.

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Hopefully we can now move discussion away from whatever silliness unfolds in the posts immediately before this one. Although Sarcellus is a really great name for an alt, lol.

 

I always thought that part of what distinguished Kellhus from the rest of the Dunyain was that, even in some vestigial, fucked up way, he felt some distant spark of human emotion. I thought that Bakker subtly insinuated this well throughout the series in scenes like the Circumfixion and other tidbits sprinkled throughout, which I can't remember well enough to source specifically. I do not know the extent to which this affects Kellhus or merely our perception of him: even if he feels basic human emotions, I really wouldn't be surprised if he could just shrug them off and get on with it anyway.

I don't tend to trust that his dialogue necessarily reflects reality in the series. Likewise I feel he probably knew what Kelmomas is the whole time. The only indication that he didn't is in the dialogue with Esmenet... in my mind I'm sure that Kelmomas must have been groomed for something. Here I echo Hello World in mentioning that theory on TSA that Kelmomas might be the true vessel of the No-God. I feel like it would clarify why the fuck his character exists in the first place, at least.

Some thoughts (Oh Knowledgeable Ones, please only clarify if it's not above a minor spoiler):

- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?

- Why did Kelmomas make the Narindar pause? A reread of TGO might clarify this but I probably won't do a reread until I've finished TUC.

- What will Moe's purpose in the story be? I hope the poster who thought Sorweel will kill him to protect Serwa is not correct. I would be left questioning his relevance to the story.

- I've always wondered, which one of Kellhus' children is truly the most gifted? Inrilatas and Kelmomas because they are so overburdened that they are broken, or Serwa and Kayutas because they're still functional?

- We've had it confirmed that Zeum doesn't appear as a POV location, so what will Malowebi's head accomplish and thus imply about the purpose of the Decapitants? 

And, because I couldn't help but read a few of the more innocent-seeming spoilers:

 

A shame about Meppa, though I'm not really surprised. It would be nice if his existence is somehow a setup for the next trilogy, which could even be retroactively possible if Bakker actually takes heed of any feedback and uses some of the plotholes he left behind to hammer out a few loose ends. I think it's a forgivable authorial sin. Otherwise, I'm still willing to forgive a red herring here or there, although it seems like this is one of Bakker's worst problems if all these other characters also prove ultimately purposeless. I already thought Theliopa was basically a pointless inclusion. 

I also won't be nonplussed if we don't get conclusive information about the Hundred and their war against Kellhus. I feel like enough has been insinuated that you can pretty much put all the pieces together, so if Momas causing a flood isn't elaborated upon, I can chalk it up to him just being a bro and doing his part to kill the damned Dunyain.

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Just now, odium said:

I always thought that part of what distinguished Kellhus from the rest of the Dunyain was that, even in some vestigial, fucked up way, he felt some distant spark of human emotion. I thought that Bakker subtly insinuated this well throughout the series in scenes like the Circumfixion and other tidbits sprinkled throughout, which I can't remember well enough to source specifically. I do not know the extent to which this affects Kellhus or merely our perception of his him: even if he feels basic human emotions, I really wouldn't be surprised if he could just shrug them off and get on with it anyway.

It seems Kellhus' whole line does; as pointed out elsewhere, Koringhus does as well. It's not clear whether or not the emotion he experiences is particularly good, however. One possible interpretation is that Kellhus does feel emotions, but he feels them like a child does; he has little ability to control or gauge them, as those things aren't exactly taught. He doesn't know what 'pity' is, as an example. What he thinks of as love for Esmi may simply be pure desire, or pity, or any number of odd things. 

My personal take is that Kellhus is a sociopathic narcissist, and Esmi is his prize just like Serwe was Cnaiur's. 

I agree with MSJ that he definitely feels the emotions and they exist. I just don't buy that it means he's doing things for the good of humanity, though I think that this is a way that Kellhus rationalizes his behavior.

Just now, odium said:

Some thoughts (Oh Knowledgeable Ones, please only clarify if it's not above a minor spoiler):

- Why did Kelmomas make the Narindar pause? A reread of TGO might clarify this but I probably won't do a reread until I've finished TUC.

This is answered in TUC. 

Just now, odium said:

- What will Moe's purpose in the story be? I hope the poster who thought Sorweel will kill him to protect Serwa is not correct. I would be left questioning his relevance to the story.

Spoiler

I'm questioning his relevance too :)

Just now, odium said:

- I've always wondered, which one of Kellhus' children is truly the most gifted? Inrilatas and Kelmomas because they are so overburdened that they are broken, or Serwa and Kayutas because they're still functional?

IMO, this isn't even remotely a challenge; it's Serwa. And this is before anything in TUC. She is the most competent, the strongest in ability and logic, the most able to withstand damage, the most able to do what needs to be done. She has her father's intelligence and her mother's ability to take what is given. 

Just now, odium said:

 

  Hide contents

Hopefully we can now move discussion away from whatever silliness unfolds in the posts immediately before this one. Although Sarcellus is a really great name for an alt, lol.

I know, right? I feel completely stupid for not getting it now. 

 

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3 hours ago, odium said:

- I've always wondered, which one of Kellhus' children is truly the most gifted? Inrilatas and Kelmomas because they are so overburdened that they are broken, or Serwa and Kayutas because they're still functional?

I remember someone in the books  saying Inrilatas possessed his fathers gifts to the highest degree. I'm not sure whether it was a reliable source.

Personally I would still agree with naming Serwa as most gifted since we do have to figure in having a backbone to actually not break under that giftedness. Funny that - didn´t Maithanet make a remark to Inrilatas having weak bones when killing him.

Anyways I would have loved to have more backstory on the children. Maybe a short story of the royal children in their youth. 

Now onto the spoiler parts - I'm not sure if this has been asked, but do we get to see more Kayutas in this one (more than in the previous books)? Out of all the royal children, we've seen the least of him.

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15 hours ago, odium said:

Hopefully we can now move discussion away from whatever silliness unfolds in the posts immediately before this one. Although Sarcellus is a really great name for an alt, lol.

 

I always thought that part of what distinguished Kellhus from the rest of the Dunyain was that, even in some vestigial, fucked up way, he felt some distant spark of human emotion. I thought that Bakker subtly insinuated this well throughout the series in scenes like the Circumfixion and other tidbits sprinkled throughout, which I can't remember well enough to source specifically. I do not know the extent to which this affects Kellhus or merely our perception of him: even if he feels basic human emotions, I really wouldn't be surprised if he could just shrug them off and get on with it anyway.

I don't tend to trust that his dialogue necessarily reflects reality in the series. Likewise I feel he probably knew what Kelmomas is the whole time. The only indication that he didn't is in the dialogue with Esmenet... in my mind I'm sure that Kelmomas must have been groomed for something. Here I echo Hello World in mentioning that theory on TSA that Kelmomas might be the true vessel of the No-God. I feel like it would clarify why the fuck his character exists in the first place, at least.

Some thoughts (Oh Knowledgeable Ones, please only clarify if it's not above a minor spoiler):

- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?

- Why did Kelmomas make the Narindar pause? A reread of TGO might clarify this but I probably won't do a reread until I've finished TUC.

- What will Moe's purpose in the story be? I hope the poster who thought Sorweel will kill him to protect Serwa is not correct. I would be left questioning his relevance to the story.

- I've always wondered, which one of Kellhus' children is truly the most gifted? Inrilatas and Kelmomas because they are so overburdened that they are broken, or Serwa and Kayutas because they're still functional?

- We've had it confirmed that Zeum doesn't appear as a POV location, so what will Malowebi's head accomplish and thus imply about the purpose of the Decapitants? 

And, because I couldn't help but read a few of the more innocent-seeming spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

A shame about Meppa, though I'm not really surprised. It would be nice if his existence is somehow a setup for the next trilogy, which could even be retroactively possible if Bakker actually takes heed of any feedback and uses some of the plotholes he left behind to hammer out a few loose ends. I think it's a forgivable authorial sin. Otherwise, I'm still willing to forgive a red herring here or there, although it seems like this is one of Bakker's worst problems if all these other characters also prove ultimately purposeless. I already thought Theliopa was basically a pointless inclusion. 

I also won't be nonplussed if we don't get conclusive information about the Hundred and their war against Kellhus. I feel like enough has been insinuated that you can pretty much put all the pieces together, so if Momas causing a flood isn't elaborated upon, I can chalk it up to him just being a bro and doing his part to kill the damned Dunyain.

Spoiler

1- Kelmomas and the TWLW thing gets explored more in the book.

 

2- Moe is pretty important in TUC.

3- Zeüm indeed doesn't appear. Malowebi's head and the Decapitants' purpose also gets touched upon in the book.

 

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Three small questions. 

1. Bakker's non-spoiler comments seem to indicate that there is one more forthcoming chapter to the story, and that this is the "penultimate" book in the series. (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/the-unholy-consult/)  How apparent is it from the book that the story to come is a book length/worth?

2. Do we have an explanation for the creation of the Hundred, and does that explanation have to anything to do with the Nonmen?

3,  Do we get a further explanation for the Judging Eye? 

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17 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Three small questions. 

1. Bakker's non-spoiler comments seem to indicate that there is one more forthcoming chapter to the story, and that this is the "penultimate" book in the series. (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/the-unholy-consult/)  How apparent is it from the book that the story to come is a book length/worth?

2. Do we have an explanation for the creation of the Hundred, and does that explanation have to anything to do with the Nonmen?

3,  Do we get a further explanation for the Judging Eye? 

Spoiler

1- The story isn't complete in any way without the third series. About length: I don't think Bakker would do another extended glossary. So, it may go both ways, either  trilogy or a duology. 

 

2- Nope

 

3- Also no.

 

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13 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Three small questions. 

1. Bakker's non-spoiler comments seem to indicate that there is one more forthcoming chapter to the story, and that this is the "penultimate" book in the series. (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/the-unholy-consult/)  How apparent is it from the book that the story to come is a book length/worth?

I think he's using the word 'penultimate' incorrectly, in that I thought TUC was the end of TAE. If it is not, that itself is a bit of new information. (the comments in that post appear to indicate that he was using the word wrong.

The next series could be pretty big or it could be resolved really quickly. TAE could have been done in one book, as an example, and the next one could likely be done in even less if someone was so inclined (and it goes a certain direction). Alternately it could be really really long, though I fail to see a lot of there, there. 

13 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

2. Do we have an explanation for the creation of the Hundred, and does that explanation have to anything to do with the Nonmen?

No explanation is given in the text. Bakker has commented extratextually that it was the God that broke the God, and that the nonmen did not.

13 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

3,  Do we get a further explanation for the Judging Eye? 

Nope, though we get more evidence that it continues to tell the truth. 

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22 hours ago, odium said:

 

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A shame about Meppa, though I'm not really surprised. It would be nice if his existence is somehow a setup for the next trilogy, which could even be retroactively possible if Bakker actually takes heed of any feedback and uses some of the plotholes he left behind to hammer out a few loose ends. I think it's a forgivable authorial sin. Otherwise, I'm still willing to forgive a red herring here or there, although it seems like this is one of Bakker's worst problems if all these other characters also prove ultimately purposeless. I already thought Theliopa was basically a pointless inclusion. 

What do you mean by plotholes?

I wouldn't put my hopes up that some character will have any important role in the next series because it turned out to be "pointless" in some sense in this one. You could say that the entire Fanim invasion arc and it's characters (Fanayal, Psatma, Meppa...) were pointless. Bakker couldn't make the reader take Fanayal's invasion seriously unless he gave him a Cishaurim. That could be the reason Meppa is in the story.

Totally agree about Theliopa.

Quote

I also won't be nonplussed if we don't get conclusive information about the Hundred and their war against Kellhus. I feel like enough has been insinuated that you can pretty much put all the pieces together, so if Momas causing a flood isn't elaborated upon, I can chalk it up to him just being a bro and doing his part to kill the damned Dunyain.

What I still don't get is what exactly happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix? Did he only start feeling emotions and caring about others from that point onward? If so, why?

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45 minutes ago, Hello World said:

What I still don't get is what exactly happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix? Did he only start feeling emotions and caring about others from that point onward? If so, why?

From my interpretation of the scene he loses it/goes mad because he directly caused the death of an innocent woman he loved. He tries to will her back to life as if what he tells her she does, like in life. Him feeling this is what makes him go mad. Now mad, I interpret as becoming more human, i.e. having emotions.

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1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

From my interpretation of the scene he loses it/goes mad because he directly caused the death of an innocent woman he loved. He tries to will her back to life as if what he tells her she does, like in life. Him feeling this is what makes him go mad. Now mad, I interpret as becoming more human, i.e. having emotions.

Nah he just took some really bad shrooms. :P

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Qirri seems like a cocktail of different drugs. I see influences of marihuana, hallucinogenics and obviously cocaine, with the numbing quality of an opiate. 

Re: plotholes, I guess it isn't fair to call them plotholes per se, but there do seem to be a lot of loose ends lying about. I'm sure Bakker sees some reasoning for all the decisions he took to include characters etc, even if what we see is more like fat that should have been trimmed from the final product. 

If I were writing TSTSNBN I might try to fold a few of those loose ends into the narrative if it didn't seem handwavey. Obviously Bakker might not feel the same way but the Last Cishaurim definitely has potential to be a promising future plot device. 

I tend to think Kellhus broke on the Circumfix and began to let his emotions influence him in a new way that proved necessary to fully apprehend the TT. That, or they gave his perception the necessary subjective edge to allow him to believe he had. It seems to be the point where he begins to buy into himself as the chosen one. 

In the end it seems like many popular points of discussion will remain unclarified, so I guess the reader has to decide at one point if they agree with Moe's perception of Kellhus and view the series with that lens or if they buy into Kellhus' perception of himself.

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14 hours ago, commiedore said:

@Kalbear, @Werthead, et al; now that y'all have finished the aspect emperor arc... do you feel it has given you any insight or guesses on what tstsnbn might be called? 

I have a couple of guesses, yes, and they would be absurdly spoilery if you took them as the 'this is the thing that Kellhus is' kind of vibe. I have guesses that are also not in that vein either, and I honestly think those make more sense.

As has been said here and elsewhere, there is very little doubt about what the next series will be about. Again, to bring in Star Wars - at the end of Empire we didn't know that we would be calling something 'return of the Jedi' but we knew that we'd be looking for Han and we'd be getting some resolution to Luke and Vader.

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